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May 04, 2009

How Big Can They Get?

By Scott Bestul

We’ve discussed it before in this space, but whitetail antler is some amazing stuff. Among the fastest-growing tissue known to man, deer antlers have been known to grow at a rate of at least two inches per day. Until now...

The buck in the posted video—appropriately named “Sudden Impact”—is from a captive facility in Wisconsin. Last year, this freakish-big buck’s antlers scored 406”, and in the month of August were growing at the rate of six inches per day! To make things even more interesting, Sudden Impact grew this monstrous rack in only his second year!

As the narrator notes, this incredible growth is the result of “a perfect storm of genetics, nutrition and a stress-free lifestyle.” Noticeably absent from the antler-growth equation formula is age. Most wild bucks need at least five antler growth cycles before they realize their full potential, and some may not “max out” unless they reach 7-1/2 years of age. For any buck—even a domestic critter—to pour on this much horn in only two years is nothing short of amazing to me. Of course Sudden Impact is fed well, has no worries, and represents a rare kismet of breeding strategy. But come on…406” as a two-year old? Sometimes we get a glimpse into the potential of a species, and I find it fascinating, whether it’s a child prodigy, a lightning-fast race horse, or a whitetail with ginormous antlers. 

Comments (62)

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from buckhunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

These breeders are making a mockery of this sport. A 130in buck is still a damn fine animal regardless of what these idiots say.

Don't mess with mother nature.

+10 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big O wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

buckhunters right. He's impressive but how many of us that haven't hit the "Power Ball Lotto" in life ever going to see one like this in "REAL" life?

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Buckhunter hit the nail on the head when he called it a "mockery of this sport"

Since when did hunting stop being about:
->spending time with friends and family in nature
->putting food on the table
->Connecting with our traditions, the wild, and the animals that die to feed us.

and start being about:
->engineering the buck with the biggest possible rack.
->Taking that buck with the minimum possible amount of effort.

I have always thought of taking a monster buck as a sign of the hunter's skill. Surely if a buck has lived long enough to grow such big rack he must be very wise and skilled at avoiding hunters. Herd engineering like this completely throws that concept out the window.

Think about it, what do you get from hunting engineered monsters like this? bragging rights? (you don't deserve them) a big mount on the wall? how do these things make your life any better?

Are those things really worth selling out the values that our sport was built on?

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I got to thinking about this and I had another point to make-

I think that the hunting TV shows are largely to blame.

They edit the shows so that that it looks like the hunters see one buck every 20 seconds.(granted, I don't know how else you could edit it and have it still be watchable)

Then, I've seen them pass up bucks that most of us on the east coast would give our left leg just to see.

What kind of message is this sending to our young hunters to grow up watching these shows?

It is probably even effecting the thinking of us adults, being saturated by this way of thinking every time we turn on the outdoor channel.

Is hunting really about taking the biggest buck possible?

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ziggy4334 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

This is a really interesting sight. To see a deer have over 400 inches green-scored is phenomenal. The bucks roaming around my property need some clover!

This really will make hunters stop and think about the issues that having a deer with antlers that big will be talked about.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big O wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Ken's got it right. What kind of "message" does this send to the kids? We're tring to "turn them on" to hunting not off, by showing them deer that they will NEVER see in "REAL" life.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I agree wholeheartedly with buckhunter and ken. Call me a pessimist, but i believe that deer needs to be tested for steriods, growth hormone, and/or bio-engineered genes. Pretty large body for a 2 year old too. Shame on the people who pay to "hunt" these enclosures, supporting this craze. I like to see and shoot big bucks as much as the next guy, but I am more interested in the hunt, not the take. And i will always do it in the wild, on unfenced property, mostly on public land. To me a 100" whitetail, taken on public land in the Northeast is a serious trophy. As ken states, these Hunt TV shows are a joke too. Terrible example for kids, and fuel for the antis too. I have read that Outfitters in a specific are that i will not name, have released deer like this into the wild to breed, improving trophy potential in the area, therefore improving business. Talk about a total lack of ethics and sportmanship. This is not what we're about people!

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from vtbluegrass wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

First off that rack may be huge but its hideous. Look at how much lower that deer is carrying his head compared to the other bucks. Nature did a pretty good job of engineering the whitetail but they definitely aren't designed to carry that much antler and thrive. I would be willing to say even if that was possible in nature without human intervention that this buck would probably not be a dominant buck. I would say a more normal animal would take him out during the rut. Yeah he may have the "biggest stick" as it were but in a fight a baseball bat is a lot more useful than a telephone pole.

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from dighunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I don't understand the uproar! This is a farmed animal no different than a longhorn steer, or a huge turkey at the fair that is being showed off. I don't hear people complaining about the enormous beef cattle that are being fed all sorts of proteins and steroids to make them bigger. All I see are people (like myself) enjoying a huge steak or big turkey dinner. The idea for this family/company is to make money by growing the biggest rack they can. No one is planning on hunting this animal or claiming it as a wild animal. It is a farm raised deer just like a cow or pig and that's all. Get off your high horses and realize it is just an amazing animal to look at. It is not going to discourage some kid from hunting because he will never kill a freak like that. Relax, get off your soap box and enjoy and amazing animal!

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from 60256 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I fully agree buckhunter

Nate

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Dighunter, these deer farmers raise large bucks to sell as "breeders." These breeders are bought by "pay to hunt" facilities and they produce offspring with large racks. This improves business as the "Pay to Hunt" crowd will pay huge money to "harvest" a trophy buck. Whether or not they tell their friends they shot a tame deer on a high-fenced petting zoo is in doubt.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

To each their own but breeding genetically enhanced deer so you can sell the sperm to high fence operations so they in turn can sell "hunts" to rich guys so they can have a decoration on their wall isn't hunting.

It's hornography.

Period.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Hornography. Great word, must remember it. This not hunting as I enjoy it, Don't see how it could be fair chase.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Dighunter-

I see your point, but this is really quite different from raising beef cattle or turkeys for the county fair.

There is absolutely no agricultural value in doing this. The big cows and turkeys make more meat and and are more profitable for the farmers(up to a point). Even if there was a market for venison (which there isn't) they aren't raising this animal muscle mass, they're raising it for its rack.

Why would they do such a thing? to make money of course! How does one make money off such a thing? by doing all the things we are talking about. Selling studs/sperm to high fence operations and by endorsing certain types of feed / seeds / supplements that make deer grow like this.

We (at least I) are not saying that such a thing should be banned. The government has no interest in how we run our sport or how "farmers" raise livestock as long as everything is humane. We are saying that we, as the hunting community, should shun such things. They are the hunting equivalent of materialism, consumerism, and keeping up with the Jones'.

We think that hunting is a traditional way to respect our food and connect with nature and that this is the wrong approach to take to it.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from elkslayer wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

the fun in hunting is pursuing wild animals in their natural element. When you begin to genetically enhance deer in an area you are creating something that nature probably would never accomplish. This deer is fine for an antler chandelier but that's it, don't let it become huntings future. The breeding being done by certain states to produce the next record largemouth bass is just as bad.

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Humans grow to great sizes when they are injected with anabolic steriods too, you can't pay $20,000 to shoot on because its illegal.. Why would this magazine even run such a unethical story is beyond me. Seeings as you are running this does that mean that Field and Stream supports high fence facilities as ethical hunting?? If you are not OPENLY against the practice then maybe you silently support it!! If I was a writer working for a magazine that has a reputation of being the voice of sportsmen and women then maybe you should think twice before glorifying such practices that the bulk of your subcribers find unethical,hideous,freak, and inhumane. The only people who kill animals at deer ranches have these three traits- no hunting skill,lots of money, and think that if they put a huge rack on their wall it will surely make up the difference for the tiny little carrot in their pants.

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from 60256 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Walt Smith,
I can understand your outrage, but a magazine's job is to run articles that are interesting to their readers, and also articles that will arouse negative and postive emotions from the readers.
I appalaud F&S for running this article, because i had no idea that deer could grow antlers like that, and it has opened my eyes even more.

Nate

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from muskiemaster wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

somebody tell me what he's getting fed because it looks they hand feed him antler steroids out of a bottle.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from huskerguy wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I'd be thrilled to shoot some of the other deer. I agree with buckhunter and ken. I'm not sure if looking at all these huge deer will effect kids that much, but I'd think it would discourge them abit if no one tells them other wise. They'll be looking for a monster like that and pass up some real good steaks. I've tried tellin my little brothers not to beleive those show's just so they know that the deer we have arn't that big, but still some nice deer.

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from osobear50 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Personally I wouldn't pass-up an opportunity to kill a buck like this one in the wild. I'm sure most, if not all, of you would take the shot if you saw him in the wild. Then again I could be wrong yall might be so paranoid about be unethical that you would waste the time to convence yourself the deer was farm raised. (hypothetically because I know this one is) The point is if you saw him in the wild you would be amazed at his the size of his rack. Hell for you guys out there you probably drool a little when you see a big breasted beauty in a bikini, which that rack is probably fake, without this much outrage so chill out and enjoy the view. Some of you had good point like this buck probably wouldn't last long in the wild. If you don't like canned hunts then don't do them and don't recommend them. Educate your kids and any others you can about the reality of real life hunts and what they are really about. And for the person who said there is no market for venison your wrong. Dead wrong. Think of how much beef or chicken you eat within a year and compare that to how much venison you eat. Then compare that to how much better venison is than beef. Are they equal or does one outway the other. If venison outways beef, which it does for me, then yes there is a market for venison. Personally when I kill a deer it does last through the week. I would like to replace at least half of my beef intake with venison but I can't because I can't legally kill that many deer and can't afford to start a venison farm yet. If I could buy it I would, but I can't so I have to settle for beef.
So quiet complaining, enjoy life and nature, and pass on to the next generation your beliefs on hunting. If you do these things life will be more enjoyable.

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from jbird wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I think it's fascinating. Unrealistic, yes, but fascinating non the less. I totally disagree w/high-fence hunting, but I believe the future of hunting depends on parents, not Field and Stream. Educate your kids about "ethical" hunting, and they will be able to survive seeing a huge rack, and know that any deer is a good deer. If this buck is sold, I bet I can guess which state the buyer lives in...

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

osobear50-

You mistook "market for venison" <- in the economic sense.

with "hunters like venison" <- in the taste/health sense.

I agree, we all love venison, unfortunately this does not mean that there are enough people willing to buy it to make venison farming a viable financial proposition.

In fact, many of the high-fence operations got started because in the late-90's there was a fad to serve venison in high-end restaurants. Farms went up all over the country and the fad was over before they even finished construction. Left with a deer a farm, and no one to buy the meat, what did they do? Sell tickets to let rich guys slaughter their livestock for them and call it hunting!

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

ken.mcloud,
Very well said (both posts). I thought your first post was particularly spot on.

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from Edstoresit wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

ken.mcloud,
first off let me tell you that if you "guys" in the northeast think that a 100" yearling qualifies as a trophy, then YOU need to reexamine your hunting ethics. The reason there aren't bigger deer in your area is because everyone that hunts there will shoot anything with antlers to say "Hey look at this buck I got!" That is your peroggative and thanks to the U.S. constitution you can continue that practice without recourse. Now if you want to kill a "qualtiy" buck then let them go so they can grow. Allow the herd in your area to develop into an even aged, even sexed ratio the way mother nature intended it to be. Buck only harvests skew this throughout restoration deer management areas, and will continue to do so as long as "hunters" such as yourself let the law continue to be as it is.
That said, while writing your diatribes with regard to deer farms, you might want to get your facts straight. Chances are that this buck would have his antlers harvested before they hardened to sell to the Asian markets for medicinal purposes. MOST of the deer/elk farms in the midwest exist just for that purpose. Currently there is only 1 other country in the world that produces more "soft antler" than the U.S. and that is New Zealand. This farm and many like raise in excess of $1000000 annually thanks to the use of the soft bone in asian medicine. Yes, the sperm for this animal will be sold, but more than likely to another breeder for the asian market. While these antlers would ceratinly be desireable for a high fenced operation, the cost of obtaining them would be very restrictive in a hunting situation. First off very few individuals in the WORLD would be able to afford the animal, and therefore the "Ranch" that had his genetics would most certainly see a decrease in harvest, and thus revenue. Lets say the base price for a 160" deer is $5,000 (which in my experience is about average) then you add $200/inch for anythin over 160, this deer would cost $49,200 in "overages", bringing the total to $54,200.00. Again, very few individuals in the world could afford to pay this for a deer.
Assuming his gentics spread the same as a normal deer, 1 in 4 buck offspring have the potential to obtain this score. So over a period of 8 years, while removing the subordinate offspring, you would have 4 of these monsters walking the property, if he had no female offspring(which is very unlikely, so you can almost double the year numbers in this hypothetical). KNowing you can't kill your breeder bucks, then you only have 3 to harvest every eight years (or if you're luck enough to have all the 2 year olds sporting that headgear then double it to 6).
Now what business do you know of could run on $162,600/every 8 years? None. So the idea of this being a "godsend" to the hunting farms is ridiculous.And the notion that this buck exists for hunting purposes is absolutely false.

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from 60256 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Edstoresit,
please refrain from any stereotypes related to growing and/or harvesting deer, because every part of the country has certain 'tendencies' that would look unethical to other parts.
Secondly, sure the business is in asia for antlers and deer sperm, but is that really what we want the deer farms to be represented by? No. This is exactly why i am against high-fenced breeding facilities for deer. All we every hear about them is what giant buck is being grown next.
But i'm sure there are many more people in the northeast that would responsibly pass on a 100" inch buck than wherever the hell you live.

Nate

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Edstoresit. It sounds like you were adressing me not ken as i said i am happy to kill 100" bucks. In NJ and PA where i hunt, these are "quality" bucks. My 105 and 112" bucks killed there were 3.5 y.o. not yearlings as you suggest. Many of the other bucks i shoot are yearlings and 2.5 y.o. deer. I obey the anlter restrictions where applicable and let spikes and forks walk where there are not. I do not have the luxury to hunt private land where i can manage the herd. On heavily hunted public land in these areas I consider myself lucky(and good) to see and shoot a buck, especially with a bow. I'm not sure of your math, but i'll take your word for it. You seem knowledgable(experienced?) in the area of high fenced hunting. If these farmers are raising their genetically enhanced deer to make money from it's medicinal value, that is great. Good for them. If that's the case it really has no affect on us as hunters, so why would we debate it here.

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I kept waitin' to see "Jackie Bushman" pop up on the video ...

Question is; Would any of you previous posters shoot a buck like the one shown out in the wild?

To answer the question I asked, I would shoot it.

I've been huntin' for over forty years and have seen all kinds of bucks in the great outdoors.I have averaged over 55-days in the field since 1980, and 99% of those days were all day of huntin'. Before sun up to after sun down.

I'm not shootin' your average 8-point buck.I let a 142", nine point walk this year, and my buddy,who has the state record, put the smack down on him.I've let a 190" walk also.

Why?
Because I've seen bigger bucks that I wanted to take.I don't find any joy in shooting smaller bucks. In my youth, I would shoot the first one that appeared. The first three years I hunted,I never saw a doe.

Last year I saw two bucks(brothers) that I shot at and missed, they would have gone around 220" typical, plus.This is where I find the true joy, hunting particular bucks, as it gives longevity to my pursuit in the woods.It gives me valuable information that you can't get from a magazine or a TV. It's called first hand knowledge.

And yes, I do shoot does, as I love the meat and eat a lot of it.I usually leave that to my younger sons, as that gives them both confidence, joy and a sense of accomplishment.

It's all about desire and choices ... and if given the opportunity, I believe most of us would accept the challenge to grow an animal of that caliber in our own back yard.

I have a garden where I raise tomatoes.
Each year I want the biggest and juiciest tomatoes I can find. There is a paricular variety, that if I can locate them, I know my garden will have, in my opinion, the best.

The variety ... GOLIATH TOMATOES!

I too find this all fascinating!

Run, Mine That Bird!

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from Edstoresit wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Nate,
In KY, where I live, the majority of hunters that I know will always pass on yearlings and 2.5 year olds. Why? Because having very liberal doe harvests here, have shown the avg. hunter that QDM works and works well when practiced. Why would they want to shoot a 100 class yearling when they know that in 2 years that 100 incher will bloosom into a potential 150 class deer.
And having hunted and studied whitetail biology in the northeast as well as the midwest, (and in the south), I find that the commonalities between hunters in both regions are almost identical. Shoot as much lead as you can at whatever is brown, then go to the bar and brag about it. Sorry if it's offensive to you, but it is what it is and it's up to other hunters to call out the practices that make us look bad in the eyes of the non hunters.
That said, why would you disparage a families livelyhood because you think it "unethical"? Now don't get me wrong, I think there is about as much medicinal value in soft antler as there is in my big toe, but if the asian's believe in it and will pay the price for it, then I won't begrudge anyone wanting to take the time and effort to fill the demand in that market. Sounds to me as if you might be a little jealous of their sucess. Heavier antlers bring heavier prices which is why New Zealand is so successful with their Red Stag breeding facilities. But whitetails, evidently, have a different medicinal characteristic and the heavier the antler the more it brings, so these farmers are just trying to maximize their profit.

And steve,
I have hunted in west central PA on WMA's there and have been lucky (good) enough to harvest a 140 class 3.5 y.o. with a bow. I don't know what area you are hunting but if your 3.5 y.o. aren't devleoping better than 110" racks, then maybe overpopulation has caused stunted growth and does need to be taken on a consistent basis. Areas around Brentwood NJ had similar issues in the early 80's and with effective doe harvest has seen several 150 class deer harvested in recent years. I'd check with PA biologist in the area where you hunt and ask them their take on the antler growth problems.
And yes I have experience on High fenced ranches both from a guiding and hunting perspective. While I do not believe that a hunting ranch should be of less than 1000 acres in order to maintain a sound and ETHICAL management plan, smaller ones do exist. I choose not to support the ranches smaller than that as they are generally a true canned hunt where the bucks are purchased annually and shot by paying customers. According to Dr. Jim Kroll(whom I believe to be correct)if one has 5000 acres of non fenced land, you can effectively manage the centermost 1000 acres for trophy (meaning 160+) animals. So maintaining a highfenced operation of 1000 or more acre will allow the same success as you do not have to deal with emmigration and immigration issues with your bucks. Most of the high fenced operations I have been associated with are not keeping deer in, but rather keeping other deer out, thus allowing for extremely accurate census data.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Edstoresit-

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but at least read my posts before you attack me.

First off, I never said a thing about yearling bucks being "trophies". Second off, I think we would all agree that herd management in the eastern states is horrible. However we are not talking about herd management (until you changed the subject)

We are talking about a very simple concept. Hunting is about the experience, not how many inches of antler the animal has. Well managed herds will produce large bucks, that will be very difficult to hunt since they are so old and wise. We all agree on this. The goal should be a healthy herd, big bucks should be a byproduct, not the other way around.

What we see as the problem is this attitude that the only thing that matters is the size of the animal's rack. Seriously, how does that rack make your life any better? at all? I can list dozens of ways that the hunting experience has improved my life, even when I return home empty handed.

Big bucks themselves are not a problem, the attitude that dictates that they are the essence of hunting is.

and by the way, if this farm has nothing to do with hunting, why are they endorsing all sorts of seeds and feeds and other hunting products on their website....? why are talking about it on a hunting website?

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from Edstoresit wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

The website is a mossy oak biologic web site...Farmingforwildlife.com and sorry I did confuse you with steve for that I apologize.
And I don't know about you but I have sold replicas of my 2 biggest deer, a 210 nontypical and a 162 main frame 8pt. So there's the value in my racks.
Truth be told, in an even aged, even ratio unpressured herd the oldest and most dominant (not always the same) bucks are highly visible. Unfortunately the sex ratios of most the the herds in the U.S. are so one sided toward females, most people will never get to see true deer behavior.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Edstoresit,
We don't all live in trophy managed whitetail states, and deer size and age structure vary greatly by region and sometimes even by state. I don't care if you'd let the bucks i shoot walk in Kentucky, it's totally irrellevant. Would you let'm walk here? I doubt it. I have adjusted my mindset to shoot better bucks than most of my hunting buddies, relatives, campmates, etc. I'm more willing to pass on immature deer than i once was because i've been successful. Success being defined in a regional(or personal) standpoint, as these bucks are a joke to you i know. Again, don't care. I am curious if the replica bucks were shot on private land? High fenced? Pay to hunt? Trying to recoup some of the cost? Very entrpreneurial. Kudos.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

2Poppa,
I am not trying to be confrontatinal with you, as i always enjoy if not agree with your posts, but Where do you hunt that you let 190" bucks walk? And the 220" twins you missed, World record bucks, huh? Wow. This brings up a point i've noticed with everyone throwing scores around, and i'm not suggestin you, but probably many here...Are we all using the same measuring system here? Ive seen posts of basket racks listed as 140" bucks. Believe me i'm aware there are ways to take a picture to make a buck look bigger or smaller, but i think many may not measure correctly.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Steve-

Don't try to justify yourself to him! there are two different issue here:

1) Is hunting about the size of the rack, or about the experience in the field?

-and-

2) The proper management of healthy deer herds.

They are separate issues! We were talking about the first one, it made Edstoresit uncomfortable so he tried to muddy the water by confusing it with the second one.

You can hold the opinion that hunting is about the experience AND that herds should be managed in a healthy way. The two views do not conflict with each other.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Ken,
Thankyou sir. Again we are in agreement.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

The place this deer is at is called "Wilderness Whitetails". It's a breeding and hunting facility and while this giant will never be hunted (his sperm is worth too much) his offspring that are kept on the preserve that don't measure up will be put out into the preserve to be "hunted". Cost? $10,000 and above depending on the animal.

His sperm is sold to other breeders/preserve owners with the intent of keeping the giants and "culling" the others for profit (preserve hunts).

That's how they make their money. If you think that's okay and sitting in a "shooting house" picking out a deer to kill is what you call "hunting" and you think that presents a positive image for "hunting" more power to you.

I think it's wrong. Period.

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from FloridaHunter1226 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

It's amazing how big antlers can get with the proper nutritiion, the perfect genes, and a stress free environment, which reminds me, there is none of that in wild deer. These people are genetically engineering deer for what? I would never hunt deer that are raised in a cage and fed everything to grow the way the outfitters want, like they do in Texas. I am all about the chance of getting something. There are no guarantees in hunting, I do not expect that to change anytime soon nor do I want it to.

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Ken and Steve the waters have been muddied by both of you. The original article was about a farm raised buck with optimal growth potential (genetics, nutrition and age) as well as a low stress life style (no hunting). I read nowhere in the post about hunting. You however saw the fence in the background and extrapolated into "canned hunting".

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Steve,
I was huntin' in south central Kentucky, with my son last year, during big gun season,when the big 190" walked into a field displaying all of the dominate characteristics of a big buck.I knew I wasn't shooting him, because I had seen the bigger bucks earlier in the season,closer to where I live.I have access to a WMA on a farm that is adjacent to it.

I thought my son was going to shoot him,but he kept asking me if I was going to shoot. My reply was an immediate no! We had a 12-second window to take him out. I had a .300 rifle,with a Harris Bi-pod, and a 4X12 Nikon staring at him.

I had missed the 220"plus bucks during early muzzle loading season, at 148 yards. I had purchased a new gun, and the trigger was harder to pull than I remembered, and pulled off just as I squeezed.

I seen the brothers two more times last season and another one that would score high in the books, but they were just out of bow range.

As mentioned before, a friend who I hunt with has the Kentucky State Record Typical,204 3/8ths, and all three of these bucks would blow his out of the water.

When one sees the enormity of these racks,you don't have to ask yourself if he is a shooter.

If you want to Steve, maybe we can hook up this season and try to stick one ...how far from Kentucky do you live?

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

What I see here are a bunch of opinions from people with absolutely no experience in what they are talking about. How many of you that berate high fence hunting have ever actually been hunting on a high fence ranch? If you have never done it how do you know what you are talking about?

Floridahunter1226, Have you ever even been hunting in Texas? I will not argue against speculation so if you have specific examples of your experiences, then we can discuss them. If not, your evidence is here-say at best.

I have never hunted in PA or NJ so I can not say what I would do in those areas. A 110" buck can most assuredly be a trophy in some places and that criterion would be determined by the experience, not the place, where it was taken.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

2poppa, I was not doubting you, i hope you know, just amazed at how different things can be a few states away. I know they kill slammers in Kentucky. Obviously the game commission AND hunters there do a better job than here in NJ and PA. As for your generous offer, I'd jump at the chance, thankyou. As it is i have accepted an offer to go to Ohio bowhunting this fall where i hope to shoot one of these bucks i see and read about on sites like this. With my young family it will be hard to make that trip work, let alone any more. I am glad to talk with the quality of people who would make such an offer though. I hope you connect on one of those brutes. Like myself, i'm sure you'll enjoy the hunt regardless of the take.

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from idahooutdoors wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

hornography, I love it. I believe there is another type of ography in which certain things are artificially made larger, they usually end up with back problems, hopefully this buck doesn't end up with painfull back problems due to the medling of man.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

teufelhunden-

Trust me, I don't need to try it. I don't pay for sex either but I don't need to try that to know that I want no part in it.

I also don't need to try it to know that it casts a pretty negative shadow on any groups that partake in it.

As for us changing the subject, canned hunts are exactly what this post is about. What do you think the purpose of raising such an animal is? See jjas's comment and visit their website if you want proof.

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Ken.Mcloud-

My point is that by lumping all high fence ranches, you are using a very broad brush. and jjas' post refers only to "Wilderness Whitetails". I know many ranchers who purchase semen that is used to inseminate wild does. These does are tranquilized from helicopter and never held in captivity.

Many of these high fence ranches are larger than the public land in some states. They are certainly larger than the typical range for a whitetail. I have no problem with your not trying it, just with speaking with authority about a subject of which you clearly have little knowledge. We all have our opinions and they all smell the same.

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from jbird wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I don't care how big the area is, if it's fenced, the buck CAN'T LEAVE! You high-fence advocates need to know this: YOU ARE HURTING OUR SPORT! Plain and simple, I don't care how you justify it, you are hurting our sport. Public opinion is unfortunately where the future of our hunting rights hang, and the public perception of high-fence hunting is extremely negative, and thus, hurts our sport. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and mine is this, if you support or participate in "high-fence" hunting, you are not a Sportsman, you are a joke of a hunter, period.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Bottom line, these high dollar operations that have people "cull" their "failed" experiments are on the upswing.

As I stated before, if sitting in a shooting house (an appropriate name) next to a guide that tells you "yes you can shoot this deer for the price you paid" or "no, your package doesn't allow for that deer" appeals to you, whatever makes you happy (as long as it's legal).

It still seems more like "shopping and shooting" instead of actual hunting.

Matter of fact, it seems like prostitution and this kind of "hunt" share something in common. Both would leave your wallet and your ego a little empty @ the end of the deed and you really accomplished nothing.

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

You are wrong jbird the future of our sport hangs on bringing in new members and sticking together. While I do not hunt on high fence at this time, I have and will defend anyones right to do so. When the anti's find a wedge issue to split the hunting camp they will use it to erode the whole thing. We could all go to someone elses camp and find something that we would not do, or feel that is unethical. My point is, it is not our place to judge legal methods used by others. If it is legal, obviously someone with a whole lot more credible opinion than ours has deemed it ethical. and if anyone can not see the truth in that they are not an intellectual, and are a joke of a thinker, exclamation point.

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from buck hunter 17 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

talk about a BIG RACK. imagen seeing that deer in the wild. nice fotage

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from tmac49 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

That's one Monster buck, What size deer you take is your own chose in most states. Myself I shoot a doe for meat, and try to shoot a mature buck for a trophy I don't really care about what it scores. But if I shoot a giant buck one of these days, yes i will have it scored. I hunt wild free roaming deer.Most of the time I hunt on my own 80 acres of land. I try to pass on all young bucks as my choice, but someone else might shoot this buck But if you do you know for sure he won't get a chance to be a smart old Buck of your dreams!

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from jbird wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

teufelhunden, I will stand by and support fellow hunters/sportsmen. As I've previously stated, I don't consider High-fence advocates 'hunters', or 'sportsmen'. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's 'ethical' to me, now I'm no "thinker" or "intellectual" like you, but I can think of several examples of things that were once legal, but were not ethical. Can you? thought so. I won't stand and blindly support a group of people who participate in a bastardization of hunting solely because they call themselves "hunters". I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours.

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

jbird, that would depend on how you hunt. To many people firearm hunting is unethical. Many people who turn up their nose at deer baiting will set over a bear bait. Many people will participate in a deer drive, but call dog hunting unethical. Never mind that the only "knowledge" that they have of these practices are the one that someone gave them.

My point is; If I watched you hunt, I could find many things that you do that someone could consider unethical. That does not make you wrong or me wrong it just means that we should hunt and let hunt without judging.

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from buck hunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

A buck like that aint nothing until you can get them that big in the Wild.

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from stickbow13 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

ok I'll be the frist to admit that I love look at and waching deer with big racks, but the buck is crazy big but it is almost crue to this buck to have that much bone on his head...

I heard about this buck last year and this year I mite have to go and find this deer farm so I can see this big boy in person

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from buck hunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Does anyone know what deer farm this bucks on?

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from buck hunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Does anyone know what deer farm this bucks on?

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from libertyfirst wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I believe the discussion here is simply about how large a whitetails antlers can grow given optimal nutriments and a stress free environment. I may be naive, but what does this have to do with canned hunts; a practice I abhor.

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from NolanOsborne wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

You would think that would be mighty uncomfortable for the deer..

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from stickbow13 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

buck hunter---the deer farm is in central wis,

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from dave the bowhunter wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

ive got to agree with every thing ken mcloud says in here theres so many of them bucks that cant even be put in pope and young because of where they was taken at years back there use to be a few good hunting shows on tv,any more its so blowed out of porportion that it aint even funny,its phoney alonh with most of them making the shows, i get a kick out of these first time women bow hunters that go hunting for three years straigh and kill a giant every year ike its no big deal to get it,,id like to see them do it here where i live ,and hunt ,more then once in a life time, they would give up and throw there cameras away trying to get a big one here in a certain amount of time here,what i get a kick out of there it is standing fifty yards away and gets shhot right behind the shoulder perfect every time just like a bullet..

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from dave the bowhunter wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

ive got to agree with every thing ken mcloud says in here theres so many of them bucks that cant even be put in pope and young because of where they was taken at years back there use to be a few good hunting shows on tv,any more its so blowed out of porportion that it aint even funny,its phoney alonh with most of them making the shows, i get a kick out of these first time women bow hunters that go hunting for three years straigh and kill a giant every year ike its no big deal to get it,,id like to see them do it here where i live ,and hunt ,more then once in a life time, they would give up and throw there cameras away trying to get a big one here in a certain amount of time here,what i get a kick out of there it is standing fifty yards away and gets shot right behind the shoulder perfect every time just like a bullet..

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from northern_mi_hunter wrote 4 years 38 weeks ago

In the area of Northern MI I hunt, most 3.5 to 6.5 year olds only have racks from 100-120"....

And in my opinion, my 105" 4.5 year old shot on public land with as many as 30 other hunter per square mile is as good if not better than any 160" buck shot on some property managed for big racks...

Some areas of the country just dont have the nutrition to grow huge racks.. I am sorry, but a deer that survives on twigs and acorns the entire year just isnt going to get to 160" no matter what the age or buck to doe ratio...

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 38 weeks ago

Well state nortern_mi_hunter. I'm a public land hunter in Pa, and NJ. We're hunting animals of similar quality, though not as large bodied as you are. Any mature buck taken on Public Land is a trophy regarless of B&C or P&Y score.

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from wurmie25 wrote 4 years 20 weeks ago

If you were to try and shoot that you would have chance of shooting antlers than shooting the body

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from buckhunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

These breeders are making a mockery of this sport. A 130in buck is still a damn fine animal regardless of what these idiots say.

Don't mess with mother nature.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Buckhunter hit the nail on the head when he called it a "mockery of this sport"

Since when did hunting stop being about:
->spending time with friends and family in nature
->putting food on the table
->Connecting with our traditions, the wild, and the animals that die to feed us.

and start being about:
->engineering the buck with the biggest possible rack.
->Taking that buck with the minimum possible amount of effort.

I have always thought of taking a monster buck as a sign of the hunter's skill. Surely if a buck has lived long enough to grow such big rack he must be very wise and skilled at avoiding hunters. Herd engineering like this completely throws that concept out the window.

Think about it, what do you get from hunting engineered monsters like this? bragging rights? (you don't deserve them) a big mount on the wall? how do these things make your life any better?

Are those things really worth selling out the values that our sport was built on?

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I got to thinking about this and I had another point to make-

I think that the hunting TV shows are largely to blame.

They edit the shows so that that it looks like the hunters see one buck every 20 seconds.(granted, I don't know how else you could edit it and have it still be watchable)

Then, I've seen them pass up bucks that most of us on the east coast would give our left leg just to see.

What kind of message is this sending to our young hunters to grow up watching these shows?

It is probably even effecting the thinking of us adults, being saturated by this way of thinking every time we turn on the outdoor channel.

Is hunting really about taking the biggest buck possible?

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Dighunter-

I see your point, but this is really quite different from raising beef cattle or turkeys for the county fair.

There is absolutely no agricultural value in doing this. The big cows and turkeys make more meat and and are more profitable for the farmers(up to a point). Even if there was a market for venison (which there isn't) they aren't raising this animal muscle mass, they're raising it for its rack.

Why would they do such a thing? to make money of course! How does one make money off such a thing? by doing all the things we are talking about. Selling studs/sperm to high fence operations and by endorsing certain types of feed / seeds / supplements that make deer grow like this.

We (at least I) are not saying that such a thing should be banned. The government has no interest in how we run our sport or how "farmers" raise livestock as long as everything is humane. We are saying that we, as the hunting community, should shun such things. They are the hunting equivalent of materialism, consumerism, and keeping up with the Jones'.

We think that hunting is a traditional way to respect our food and connect with nature and that this is the wrong approach to take to it.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

To each their own but breeding genetically enhanced deer so you can sell the sperm to high fence operations so they in turn can sell "hunts" to rich guys so they can have a decoration on their wall isn't hunting.

It's hornography.

Period.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Hornography. Great word, must remember it. This not hunting as I enjoy it, Don't see how it could be fair chase.

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from elkslayer wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

the fun in hunting is pursuing wild animals in their natural element. When you begin to genetically enhance deer in an area you are creating something that nature probably would never accomplish. This deer is fine for an antler chandelier but that's it, don't let it become huntings future. The breeding being done by certain states to produce the next record largemouth bass is just as bad.

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I kept waitin' to see "Jackie Bushman" pop up on the video ...

Question is; Would any of you previous posters shoot a buck like the one shown out in the wild?

To answer the question I asked, I would shoot it.

I've been huntin' for over forty years and have seen all kinds of bucks in the great outdoors.I have averaged over 55-days in the field since 1980, and 99% of those days were all day of huntin'. Before sun up to after sun down.

I'm not shootin' your average 8-point buck.I let a 142", nine point walk this year, and my buddy,who has the state record, put the smack down on him.I've let a 190" walk also.

Why?
Because I've seen bigger bucks that I wanted to take.I don't find any joy in shooting smaller bucks. In my youth, I would shoot the first one that appeared. The first three years I hunted,I never saw a doe.

Last year I saw two bucks(brothers) that I shot at and missed, they would have gone around 220" typical, plus.This is where I find the true joy, hunting particular bucks, as it gives longevity to my pursuit in the woods.It gives me valuable information that you can't get from a magazine or a TV. It's called first hand knowledge.

And yes, I do shoot does, as I love the meat and eat a lot of it.I usually leave that to my younger sons, as that gives them both confidence, joy and a sense of accomplishment.

It's all about desire and choices ... and if given the opportunity, I believe most of us would accept the challenge to grow an animal of that caliber in our own back yard.

I have a garden where I raise tomatoes.
Each year I want the biggest and juiciest tomatoes I can find. There is a paricular variety, that if I can locate them, I know my garden will have, in my opinion, the best.

The variety ... GOLIATH TOMATOES!

I too find this all fascinating!

Run, Mine That Bird!

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from Big O wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Ken's got it right. What kind of "message" does this send to the kids? We're tring to "turn them on" to hunting not off, by showing them deer that they will NEVER see in "REAL" life.

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from vtbluegrass wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

First off that rack may be huge but its hideous. Look at how much lower that deer is carrying his head compared to the other bucks. Nature did a pretty good job of engineering the whitetail but they definitely aren't designed to carry that much antler and thrive. I would be willing to say even if that was possible in nature without human intervention that this buck would probably not be a dominant buck. I would say a more normal animal would take him out during the rut. Yeah he may have the "biggest stick" as it were but in a fight a baseball bat is a lot more useful than a telephone pole.

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from 60256 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I fully agree buckhunter

Nate

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

What I see here are a bunch of opinions from people with absolutely no experience in what they are talking about. How many of you that berate high fence hunting have ever actually been hunting on a high fence ranch? If you have never done it how do you know what you are talking about?

Floridahunter1226, Have you ever even been hunting in Texas? I will not argue against speculation so if you have specific examples of your experiences, then we can discuss them. If not, your evidence is here-say at best.

I have never hunted in PA or NJ so I can not say what I would do in those areas. A 110" buck can most assuredly be a trophy in some places and that criterion would be determined by the experience, not the place, where it was taken.

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Ken.Mcloud-

My point is that by lumping all high fence ranches, you are using a very broad brush. and jjas' post refers only to "Wilderness Whitetails". I know many ranchers who purchase semen that is used to inseminate wild does. These does are tranquilized from helicopter and never held in captivity.

Many of these high fence ranches are larger than the public land in some states. They are certainly larger than the typical range for a whitetail. I have no problem with your not trying it, just with speaking with authority about a subject of which you clearly have little knowledge. We all have our opinions and they all smell the same.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I agree wholeheartedly with buckhunter and ken. Call me a pessimist, but i believe that deer needs to be tested for steriods, growth hormone, and/or bio-engineered genes. Pretty large body for a 2 year old too. Shame on the people who pay to "hunt" these enclosures, supporting this craze. I like to see and shoot big bucks as much as the next guy, but I am more interested in the hunt, not the take. And i will always do it in the wild, on unfenced property, mostly on public land. To me a 100" whitetail, taken on public land in the Northeast is a serious trophy. As ken states, these Hunt TV shows are a joke too. Terrible example for kids, and fuel for the antis too. I have read that Outfitters in a specific are that i will not name, have released deer like this into the wild to breed, improving trophy potential in the area, therefore improving business. Talk about a total lack of ethics and sportmanship. This is not what we're about people!

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Dighunter, these deer farmers raise large bucks to sell as "breeders." These breeders are bought by "pay to hunt" facilities and they produce offspring with large racks. This improves business as the "Pay to Hunt" crowd will pay huge money to "harvest" a trophy buck. Whether or not they tell their friends they shot a tame deer on a high-fenced petting zoo is in doubt.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Edstoresit. It sounds like you were adressing me not ken as i said i am happy to kill 100" bucks. In NJ and PA where i hunt, these are "quality" bucks. My 105 and 112" bucks killed there were 3.5 y.o. not yearlings as you suggest. Many of the other bucks i shoot are yearlings and 2.5 y.o. deer. I obey the anlter restrictions where applicable and let spikes and forks walk where there are not. I do not have the luxury to hunt private land where i can manage the herd. On heavily hunted public land in these areas I consider myself lucky(and good) to see and shoot a buck, especially with a bow. I'm not sure of your math, but i'll take your word for it. You seem knowledgable(experienced?) in the area of high fenced hunting. If these farmers are raising their genetically enhanced deer to make money from it's medicinal value, that is great. Good for them. If that's the case it really has no affect on us as hunters, so why would we debate it here.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Edstoresit,
We don't all live in trophy managed whitetail states, and deer size and age structure vary greatly by region and sometimes even by state. I don't care if you'd let the bucks i shoot walk in Kentucky, it's totally irrellevant. Would you let'm walk here? I doubt it. I have adjusted my mindset to shoot better bucks than most of my hunting buddies, relatives, campmates, etc. I'm more willing to pass on immature deer than i once was because i've been successful. Success being defined in a regional(or personal) standpoint, as these bucks are a joke to you i know. Again, don't care. I am curious if the replica bucks were shot on private land? High fenced? Pay to hunt? Trying to recoup some of the cost? Very entrpreneurial. Kudos.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

2poppa, I was not doubting you, i hope you know, just amazed at how different things can be a few states away. I know they kill slammers in Kentucky. Obviously the game commission AND hunters there do a better job than here in NJ and PA. As for your generous offer, I'd jump at the chance, thankyou. As it is i have accepted an offer to go to Ohio bowhunting this fall where i hope to shoot one of these bucks i see and read about on sites like this. With my young family it will be hard to make that trip work, let alone any more. I am glad to talk with the quality of people who would make such an offer though. I hope you connect on one of those brutes. Like myself, i'm sure you'll enjoy the hunt regardless of the take.

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from 2Poppa wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Steve,
I was huntin' in south central Kentucky, with my son last year, during big gun season,when the big 190" walked into a field displaying all of the dominate characteristics of a big buck.I knew I wasn't shooting him, because I had seen the bigger bucks earlier in the season,closer to where I live.I have access to a WMA on a farm that is adjacent to it.

I thought my son was going to shoot him,but he kept asking me if I was going to shoot. My reply was an immediate no! We had a 12-second window to take him out. I had a .300 rifle,with a Harris Bi-pod, and a 4X12 Nikon staring at him.

I had missed the 220"plus bucks during early muzzle loading season, at 148 yards. I had purchased a new gun, and the trigger was harder to pull than I remembered, and pulled off just as I squeezed.

I seen the brothers two more times last season and another one that would score high in the books, but they were just out of bow range.

As mentioned before, a friend who I hunt with has the Kentucky State Record Typical,204 3/8ths, and all three of these bucks would blow his out of the water.

When one sees the enormity of these racks,you don't have to ask yourself if he is a shooter.

If you want to Steve, maybe we can hook up this season and try to stick one ...how far from Kentucky do you live?

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from jbird wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I don't care how big the area is, if it's fenced, the buck CAN'T LEAVE! You high-fence advocates need to know this: YOU ARE HURTING OUR SPORT! Plain and simple, I don't care how you justify it, you are hurting our sport. Public opinion is unfortunately where the future of our hunting rights hang, and the public perception of high-fence hunting is extremely negative, and thus, hurts our sport. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and mine is this, if you support or participate in "high-fence" hunting, you are not a Sportsman, you are a joke of a hunter, period.

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from jbird wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

teufelhunden, I will stand by and support fellow hunters/sportsmen. As I've previously stated, I don't consider High-fence advocates 'hunters', or 'sportsmen'. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's 'ethical' to me, now I'm no "thinker" or "intellectual" like you, but I can think of several examples of things that were once legal, but were not ethical. Can you? thought so. I won't stand and blindly support a group of people who participate in a bastardization of hunting solely because they call themselves "hunters". I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Edstoresit-

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but at least read my posts before you attack me.

First off, I never said a thing about yearling bucks being "trophies". Second off, I think we would all agree that herd management in the eastern states is horrible. However we are not talking about herd management (until you changed the subject)

We are talking about a very simple concept. Hunting is about the experience, not how many inches of antler the animal has. Well managed herds will produce large bucks, that will be very difficult to hunt since they are so old and wise. We all agree on this. The goal should be a healthy herd, big bucks should be a byproduct, not the other way around.

What we see as the problem is this attitude that the only thing that matters is the size of the animal's rack. Seriously, how does that rack make your life any better? at all? I can list dozens of ways that the hunting experience has improved my life, even when I return home empty handed.

Big bucks themselves are not a problem, the attitude that dictates that they are the essence of hunting is.

and by the way, if this farm has nothing to do with hunting, why are they endorsing all sorts of seeds and feeds and other hunting products on their website....? why are talking about it on a hunting website?

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

teufelhunden-

Trust me, I don't need to try it. I don't pay for sex either but I don't need to try that to know that I want no part in it.

I also don't need to try it to know that it casts a pretty negative shadow on any groups that partake in it.

As for us changing the subject, canned hunts are exactly what this post is about. What do you think the purpose of raising such an animal is? See jjas's comment and visit their website if you want proof.

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from Big O wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

buckhunters right. He's impressive but how many of us that haven't hit the "Power Ball Lotto" in life ever going to see one like this in "REAL" life?

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from northern_mi_hunter wrote 4 years 38 weeks ago

In the area of Northern MI I hunt, most 3.5 to 6.5 year olds only have racks from 100-120"....

And in my opinion, my 105" 4.5 year old shot on public land with as many as 30 other hunter per square mile is as good if not better than any 160" buck shot on some property managed for big racks...

Some areas of the country just dont have the nutrition to grow huge racks.. I am sorry, but a deer that survives on twigs and acorns the entire year just isnt going to get to 160" no matter what the age or buck to doe ratio...

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from Ziggy4334 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

This is a really interesting sight. To see a deer have over 400 inches green-scored is phenomenal. The bucks roaming around my property need some clover!

This really will make hunters stop and think about the issues that having a deer with antlers that big will be talked about.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

The place this deer is at is called "Wilderness Whitetails". It's a breeding and hunting facility and while this giant will never be hunted (his sperm is worth too much) his offspring that are kept on the preserve that don't measure up will be put out into the preserve to be "hunted". Cost? $10,000 and above depending on the animal.

His sperm is sold to other breeders/preserve owners with the intent of keeping the giants and "culling" the others for profit (preserve hunts).

That's how they make their money. If you think that's okay and sitting in a "shooting house" picking out a deer to kill is what you call "hunting" and you think that presents a positive image for "hunting" more power to you.

I think it's wrong. Period.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Bottom line, these high dollar operations that have people "cull" their "failed" experiments are on the upswing.

As I stated before, if sitting in a shooting house (an appropriate name) next to a guide that tells you "yes you can shoot this deer for the price you paid" or "no, your package doesn't allow for that deer" appeals to you, whatever makes you happy (as long as it's legal).

It still seems more like "shopping and shooting" instead of actual hunting.

Matter of fact, it seems like prostitution and this kind of "hunt" share something in common. Both would leave your wallet and your ego a little empty @ the end of the deed and you really accomplished nothing.

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from 60256 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Walt Smith,
I can understand your outrage, but a magazine's job is to run articles that are interesting to their readers, and also articles that will arouse negative and postive emotions from the readers.
I appalaud F&S for running this article, because i had no idea that deer could grow antlers like that, and it has opened my eyes even more.

Nate

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from 60256 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Edstoresit,
please refrain from any stereotypes related to growing and/or harvesting deer, because every part of the country has certain 'tendencies' that would look unethical to other parts.
Secondly, sure the business is in asia for antlers and deer sperm, but is that really what we want the deer farms to be represented by? No. This is exactly why i am against high-fenced breeding facilities for deer. All we every hear about them is what giant buck is being grown next.
But i'm sure there are many more people in the northeast that would responsibly pass on a 100" inch buck than wherever the hell you live.

Nate

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from stickbow13 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

ok I'll be the frist to admit that I love look at and waching deer with big racks, but the buck is crazy big but it is almost crue to this buck to have that much bone on his head...

I heard about this buck last year and this year I mite have to go and find this deer farm so I can see this big boy in person

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from stickbow13 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

buck hunter---the deer farm is in central wis,

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from dave the bowhunter wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

ive got to agree with every thing ken mcloud says in here theres so many of them bucks that cant even be put in pope and young because of where they was taken at years back there use to be a few good hunting shows on tv,any more its so blowed out of porportion that it aint even funny,its phoney alonh with most of them making the shows, i get a kick out of these first time women bow hunters that go hunting for three years straigh and kill a giant every year ike its no big deal to get it,,id like to see them do it here where i live ,and hunt ,more then once in a life time, they would give up and throw there cameras away trying to get a big one here in a certain amount of time here,what i get a kick out of there it is standing fifty yards away and gets shhot right behind the shoulder perfect every time just like a bullet..

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from dave the bowhunter wrote 4 years 48 weeks ago

ive got to agree with every thing ken mcloud says in here theres so many of them bucks that cant even be put in pope and young because of where they was taken at years back there use to be a few good hunting shows on tv,any more its so blowed out of porportion that it aint even funny,its phoney alonh with most of them making the shows, i get a kick out of these first time women bow hunters that go hunting for three years straigh and kill a giant every year ike its no big deal to get it,,id like to see them do it here where i live ,and hunt ,more then once in a life time, they would give up and throw there cameras away trying to get a big one here in a certain amount of time here,what i get a kick out of there it is standing fifty yards away and gets shot right behind the shoulder perfect every time just like a bullet..

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from dighunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I don't understand the uproar! This is a farmed animal no different than a longhorn steer, or a huge turkey at the fair that is being showed off. I don't hear people complaining about the enormous beef cattle that are being fed all sorts of proteins and steroids to make them bigger. All I see are people (like myself) enjoying a huge steak or big turkey dinner. The idea for this family/company is to make money by growing the biggest rack they can. No one is planning on hunting this animal or claiming it as a wild animal. It is a farm raised deer just like a cow or pig and that's all. Get off your high horses and realize it is just an amazing animal to look at. It is not going to discourage some kid from hunting because he will never kill a freak like that. Relax, get off your soap box and enjoy and amazing animal!

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from buck hunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

A buck like that aint nothing until you can get them that big in the Wild.

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from buck hunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Does anyone know what deer farm this bucks on?

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from buck hunter wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Does anyone know what deer farm this bucks on?

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from tmac49 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

That's one Monster buck, What size deer you take is your own chose in most states. Myself I shoot a doe for meat, and try to shoot a mature buck for a trophy I don't really care about what it scores. But if I shoot a giant buck one of these days, yes i will have it scored. I hunt wild free roaming deer.Most of the time I hunt on my own 80 acres of land. I try to pass on all young bucks as my choice, but someone else might shoot this buck But if you do you know for sure he won't get a chance to be a smart old Buck of your dreams!

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from idahooutdoors wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

hornography, I love it. I believe there is another type of ography in which certain things are artificially made larger, they usually end up with back problems, hopefully this buck doesn't end up with painfull back problems due to the medling of man.

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from NolanOsborne wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

You would think that would be mighty uncomfortable for the deer..

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from buck hunter 17 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

talk about a BIG RACK. imagen seeing that deer in the wild. nice fotage

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from huskerguy wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I'd be thrilled to shoot some of the other deer. I agree with buckhunter and ken. I'm not sure if looking at all these huge deer will effect kids that much, but I'd think it would discourge them abit if no one tells them other wise. They'll be looking for a monster like that and pass up some real good steaks. I've tried tellin my little brothers not to beleive those show's just so they know that the deer we have arn't that big, but still some nice deer.

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Ken and Steve the waters have been muddied by both of you. The original article was about a farm raised buck with optimal growth potential (genetics, nutrition and age) as well as a low stress life style (no hunting). I read nowhere in the post about hunting. You however saw the fence in the background and extrapolated into "canned hunting".

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

You are wrong jbird the future of our sport hangs on bringing in new members and sticking together. While I do not hunt on high fence at this time, I have and will defend anyones right to do so. When the anti's find a wedge issue to split the hunting camp they will use it to erode the whole thing. We could all go to someone elses camp and find something that we would not do, or feel that is unethical. My point is, it is not our place to judge legal methods used by others. If it is legal, obviously someone with a whole lot more credible opinion than ours has deemed it ethical. and if anyone can not see the truth in that they are not an intellectual, and are a joke of a thinker, exclamation point.

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from teufelhunden wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

jbird, that would depend on how you hunt. To many people firearm hunting is unethical. Many people who turn up their nose at deer baiting will set over a bear bait. Many people will participate in a deer drive, but call dog hunting unethical. Never mind that the only "knowledge" that they have of these practices are the one that someone gave them.

My point is; If I watched you hunt, I could find many things that you do that someone could consider unethical. That does not make you wrong or me wrong it just means that we should hunt and let hunt without judging.

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from Edstoresit wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

The website is a mossy oak biologic web site...Farmingforwildlife.com and sorry I did confuse you with steve for that I apologize.
And I don't know about you but I have sold replicas of my 2 biggest deer, a 210 nontypical and a 162 main frame 8pt. So there's the value in my racks.
Truth be told, in an even aged, even ratio unpressured herd the oldest and most dominant (not always the same) bucks are highly visible. Unfortunately the sex ratios of most the the herds in the U.S. are so one sided toward females, most people will never get to see true deer behavior.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

ken.mcloud,
Very well said (both posts). I thought your first post was particularly spot on.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

2Poppa,
I am not trying to be confrontatinal with you, as i always enjoy if not agree with your posts, but Where do you hunt that you let 190" bucks walk? And the 220" twins you missed, World record bucks, huh? Wow. This brings up a point i've noticed with everyone throwing scores around, and i'm not suggestin you, but probably many here...Are we all using the same measuring system here? Ive seen posts of basket racks listed as 140" bucks. Believe me i'm aware there are ways to take a picture to make a buck look bigger or smaller, but i think many may not measure correctly.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Ken,
Thankyou sir. Again we are in agreement.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 38 weeks ago

Well state nortern_mi_hunter. I'm a public land hunter in Pa, and NJ. We're hunting animals of similar quality, though not as large bodied as you are. Any mature buck taken on Public Land is a trophy regarless of B&C or P&Y score.

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from jbird wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I think it's fascinating. Unrealistic, yes, but fascinating non the less. I totally disagree w/high-fence hunting, but I believe the future of hunting depends on parents, not Field and Stream. Educate your kids about "ethical" hunting, and they will be able to survive seeing a huge rack, and know that any deer is a good deer. If this buck is sold, I bet I can guess which state the buyer lives in...

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

osobear50-

You mistook "market for venison" <- in the economic sense.

with "hunters like venison" <- in the taste/health sense.

I agree, we all love venison, unfortunately this does not mean that there are enough people willing to buy it to make venison farming a viable financial proposition.

In fact, many of the high-fence operations got started because in the late-90's there was a fad to serve venison in high-end restaurants. Farms went up all over the country and the fad was over before they even finished construction. Left with a deer a farm, and no one to buy the meat, what did they do? Sell tickets to let rich guys slaughter their livestock for them and call it hunting!

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Steve-

Don't try to justify yourself to him! there are two different issue here:

1) Is hunting about the size of the rack, or about the experience in the field?

-and-

2) The proper management of healthy deer herds.

They are separate issues! We were talking about the first one, it made Edstoresit uncomfortable so he tried to muddy the water by confusing it with the second one.

You can hold the opinion that hunting is about the experience AND that herds should be managed in a healthy way. The two views do not conflict with each other.

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from FloridaHunter1226 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

It's amazing how big antlers can get with the proper nutritiion, the perfect genes, and a stress free environment, which reminds me, there is none of that in wild deer. These people are genetically engineering deer for what? I would never hunt deer that are raised in a cage and fed everything to grow the way the outfitters want, like they do in Texas. I am all about the chance of getting something. There are no guarantees in hunting, I do not expect that to change anytime soon nor do I want it to.

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from osobear50 wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Personally I wouldn't pass-up an opportunity to kill a buck like this one in the wild. I'm sure most, if not all, of you would take the shot if you saw him in the wild. Then again I could be wrong yall might be so paranoid about be unethical that you would waste the time to convence yourself the deer was farm raised. (hypothetically because I know this one is) The point is if you saw him in the wild you would be amazed at his the size of his rack. Hell for you guys out there you probably drool a little when you see a big breasted beauty in a bikini, which that rack is probably fake, without this much outrage so chill out and enjoy the view. Some of you had good point like this buck probably wouldn't last long in the wild. If you don't like canned hunts then don't do them and don't recommend them. Educate your kids and any others you can about the reality of real life hunts and what they are really about. And for the person who said there is no market for venison your wrong. Dead wrong. Think of how much beef or chicken you eat within a year and compare that to how much venison you eat. Then compare that to how much better venison is than beef. Are they equal or does one outway the other. If venison outways beef, which it does for me, then yes there is a market for venison. Personally when I kill a deer it does last through the week. I would like to replace at least half of my beef intake with venison but I can't because I can't legally kill that many deer and can't afford to start a venison farm yet. If I could buy it I would, but I can't so I have to settle for beef.
So quiet complaining, enjoy life and nature, and pass on to the next generation your beliefs on hunting. If you do these things life will be more enjoyable.

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from muskiemaster wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

somebody tell me what he's getting fed because it looks they hand feed him antler steroids out of a bottle.

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from libertyfirst wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

I believe the discussion here is simply about how large a whitetails antlers can grow given optimal nutriments and a stress free environment. I may be naive, but what does this have to do with canned hunts; a practice I abhor.

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from Edstoresit wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Nate,
In KY, where I live, the majority of hunters that I know will always pass on yearlings and 2.5 year olds. Why? Because having very liberal doe harvests here, have shown the avg. hunter that QDM works and works well when practiced. Why would they want to shoot a 100 class yearling when they know that in 2 years that 100 incher will bloosom into a potential 150 class deer.
And having hunted and studied whitetail biology in the northeast as well as the midwest, (and in the south), I find that the commonalities between hunters in both regions are almost identical. Shoot as much lead as you can at whatever is brown, then go to the bar and brag about it. Sorry if it's offensive to you, but it is what it is and it's up to other hunters to call out the practices that make us look bad in the eyes of the non hunters.
That said, why would you disparage a families livelyhood because you think it "unethical"? Now don't get me wrong, I think there is about as much medicinal value in soft antler as there is in my big toe, but if the asian's believe in it and will pay the price for it, then I won't begrudge anyone wanting to take the time and effort to fill the demand in that market. Sounds to me as if you might be a little jealous of their sucess. Heavier antlers bring heavier prices which is why New Zealand is so successful with their Red Stag breeding facilities. But whitetails, evidently, have a different medicinal characteristic and the heavier the antler the more it brings, so these farmers are just trying to maximize their profit.

And steve,
I have hunted in west central PA on WMA's there and have been lucky (good) enough to harvest a 140 class 3.5 y.o. with a bow. I don't know what area you are hunting but if your 3.5 y.o. aren't devleoping better than 110" racks, then maybe overpopulation has caused stunted growth and does need to be taken on a consistent basis. Areas around Brentwood NJ had similar issues in the early 80's and with effective doe harvest has seen several 150 class deer harvested in recent years. I'd check with PA biologist in the area where you hunt and ask them their take on the antler growth problems.
And yes I have experience on High fenced ranches both from a guiding and hunting perspective. While I do not believe that a hunting ranch should be of less than 1000 acres in order to maintain a sound and ETHICAL management plan, smaller ones do exist. I choose not to support the ranches smaller than that as they are generally a true canned hunt where the bucks are purchased annually and shot by paying customers. According to Dr. Jim Kroll(whom I believe to be correct)if one has 5000 acres of non fenced land, you can effectively manage the centermost 1000 acres for trophy (meaning 160+) animals. So maintaining a highfenced operation of 1000 or more acre will allow the same success as you do not have to deal with emmigration and immigration issues with your bucks. Most of the high fenced operations I have been associated with are not keeping deer in, but rather keeping other deer out, thus allowing for extremely accurate census data.

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from wurmie25 wrote 4 years 20 weeks ago

If you were to try and shoot that you would have chance of shooting antlers than shooting the body

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

Humans grow to great sizes when they are injected with anabolic steriods too, you can't pay $20,000 to shoot on because its illegal.. Why would this magazine even run such a unethical story is beyond me. Seeings as you are running this does that mean that Field and Stream supports high fence facilities as ethical hunting?? If you are not OPENLY against the practice then maybe you silently support it!! If I was a writer working for a magazine that has a reputation of being the voice of sportsmen and women then maybe you should think twice before glorifying such practices that the bulk of your subcribers find unethical,hideous,freak, and inhumane. The only people who kill animals at deer ranches have these three traits- no hunting skill,lots of money, and think that if they put a huge rack on their wall it will surely make up the difference for the tiny little carrot in their pants.

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from Edstoresit wrote 4 years 49 weeks ago

ken.mcloud,
first off let me tell you that if you "guys" in the northeast think that a 100" yearling qualifies as a trophy, then YOU need to reexamine your hunting ethics. The reason there aren't bigger deer in your area is because everyone that hunts there will shoot anything with antlers to say "Hey look at this buck I got!" That is your peroggative and thanks to the U.S. constitution you can continue that practice without recourse. Now if you want to kill a "qualtiy" buck then let them go so they can grow. Allow the herd in your area to develop into an even aged, even sexed ratio the way mother nature intended it to be. Buck only harvests skew this throughout restoration deer management areas, and will continue to do so as long as "hunters" such as yourself let the law continue to be as it is.
That said, while writing your diatribes with regard to deer farms, you might want to get your facts straight. Chances are that this buck would have his antlers harvested before they hardened to sell to the Asian markets for medicinal purposes. MOST of the deer/elk farms in the midwest exist just for that purpose. Currently there is only 1 other country in the world that produces more "soft antler" than the U.S. and that is New Zealand. This farm and many like raise in excess of $1000000 annually thanks to the use of the soft bone in asian medicine. Yes, the sperm for this animal will be sold, but more than likely to another breeder for the asian market. While these antlers would ceratinly be desireable for a high fenced operation, the cost of obtaining them would be very restrictive in a hunting situation. First off very few individuals in the WORLD would be able to afford the animal, and therefore the "Ranch" that had his genetics would most certainly see a decrease in harvest, and thus revenue. Lets say the base price for a 160" deer is $5,000 (which in my experience is about average) then you add $200/inch for anythin over 160, this deer would cost $49,200 in "overages", bringing the total to $54,200.00. Again, very few individuals in the world could afford to pay this for a deer.
Assuming his gentics spread the same as a normal deer, 1 in 4 buck offspring have the potential to obtain this score. So over a period of 8 years, while removing the subordinate offspring, you would have 4 of these monsters walking the property, if he had no female offspring(which is very unlikely, so you can almost double the year numbers in this hypothetical). KNowing you can't kill your breeder bucks, then you only have 3 to harvest every eight years (or if you're luck enough to have all the 2 year olds sporting that headgear then double it to 6).
Now what business do you know of could run on $162,600/every 8 years? None. So the idea of this being a "godsend" to the hunting farms is ridiculous.And the notion that this buck exists for hunting purposes is absolutely false.

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