Please Sign In

Please enter a valid username and password
  • Log in with Facebook
» Not a member? Take a moment to register
» Forgot Username or Password

Why Register?
Signing up could earn you gear (click here to learn how)! It also keeps offensive content off our site.

King Buck Controversy: The World-Record Whitetail That Isn’t

Recent Comments

Categories

Recent Posts

Archives

Syndicate

Google Reader or Homepage
Add to My Yahoo!
Add to My AOL

Whitetail 365
in your Inbox

Enter your email address to get our new post everyday.

June 01, 2011

King Buck Controversy: The World-Record Whitetail That Isn’t

By Scott Bestul

In case you missed it, Deer & Deer Hunting magazine recently broke a story about a huge Wisconsin whitetail that many feel should be the new Boone & Crockett (B&C) world record typical, and internet chat rooms have been buzzing ever since. To read the DDH story, click here.

The buck, a monster 12-pointer, was shot by Wisconsin hunter Johnny King in November of 2006. Shortly after killing the buck (and before the required 60-day drying period), King had a B&C measurer from Wisconsin look at the deer. That measurer felt the King buck could possibly net above the current world record buck, shot by Saskatchewan hunter Milo Hansen in 1993. But the measurer wanted King to get a ruling on the buck’s main beam, which had been shot during the hunt and broken upon recovery. King drove the buck to Pennsylvania the following spring, where B&C records chairman Jack Reneau was attending a scoring session. There, Reneau (and three other scorers) ruled the break was acceptable, but also informed King that the G3 on the buck’s right side was an abnormal point. This decision knocked the buck from a 6X6 down to a 5X5 with two hefty deductions.

King returned to Wisconsin and had the buck scored after the required 60-day drying period. The scorer, acting under instructions from Reneau to count the G3 as an abnormal point, came up with a net score of 180-1/4”, far below the 213-plus inches it would take to take the top B&C typical honors.

Much of the flap concerning this buck occurred when scorers who have disagreed with Reneau’s ruling requested that B&C “panel-score” the deer by a group of measurers; standard procedure only when an already-measured trophy places it in the Top 10 animals in a category, or is a potential world record. Reneau has refused, noting that a 180” whitetail comes nowhere near that classification and cannot achieve that status with the abnormal G3. These disgruntled measurers, as well as a growing number of internet posters, claim that Jack Reneau has a personal bias against the deer (or the hunter), and suggest that there is some attempt at a cover-up that would allow the King Buck to achieve its rightful status as a world record. I remain unconvinced. For starters, the list of bucks that coulda-woulda-shoulda been high-scoring typicals—but were denied because of abnormal points—is long and will only grow longer. You can love or hate the high standards that typical racks are held to under the B&C rules, but the system is theirs.

Second, it would be one thing if Reneau’s instructing an official scorer how he must measure a certain tine were a breach of B&C protocol, but it’s not. Veteran scorers that I know say it happens all the time. Scorers routinely check in with him whenever they encounter a potentially-abnormal point or difficult rack. Photos are sent in, notes are checked, and Reneau looks at all the information. He then makes a decision, and the decision stands. Reneau is the ultimate judge in what can be some very difficult calls, and every B&C scorer knows this.

And finally, Reneau has been painted as the lone judge on the King buck, but that’s simply not the case. Four senior B&C measurers confirmed his ruling on the G3; Reneau is simply taking the heat. In response to the growing controversy over this ruling, B&C has issued this response.

Regardless of the outcome of this situation, the King buck remains an incredible specimen and a tremendous trophy. We’ll be keeping an eye out for any updates about this situation and post any breaking news.

Comments (61)

Top Rated
All Comments
from Ga hunter wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

World record or not that is one monster deer!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quinton Schmelz... wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

question, how bad must his hands have been shaking to hit the antler?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckhunter wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

B&C scorers are under added pressure due to the dollar value of big bucks. Kudos to the scorers for sticking to their guns. They guys wanting the higher score are looking to profit off the deer.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from jjas wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

What a mess.....My understanding is the rack has been sold and the new owner is really hoping B&C accepts the higher score....

Gee...I wonder why?

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from walmsley wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I would just like to add to the above story, that BnC has a system in place where as it's official measurers do report to Mr. Reneau for guidance and direction on difficult scoring situations: but it doesn't actually stop there. Mr. reneau reports to Mr. Eldon Buckner, who is Chairman of the BnC records Committee, and that committee is made up of 30 official measurers. All this is in place to assure the proper outcome in accordance with BnC guidelines. It's not a one man operation!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Sold the rack huh! If that was my deer no amount of money would make me part with it!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from bustedclays wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

It's silly drama like this that turns people like me off of deer hunting.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I own the antlers and have for over a year. Jack did not have a panel look at the antlers in PA. He told me that on the phone! He said he made the ruling by himself! The second time I asked him he said he left the room and the other guys made the ruling. At the Iowa deer classic one of the other guys said he did not make the ruling on the tine, only on the Break. Jack is having trouble remembering the truth.... Also Buckner is another story I wont get into now but a lot more is coming out... Field and stream call me and I will fill you in and will make the antlers available to you any time my number is 715-693-1879.. i have nothing to hide, not one thing...

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bioboy wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Well the focus has certainly shifted the wrong way. The Boone and Crockett Club began the scoring of big game species of North America to have a record of them before they were lost, this was at the point were most of our game was gone. Luckily the conservation movement (that B&C also helped to start) worked, and we can still shoot trophies like this deer today. It would be better to just appreciate that a deer like this is here and that we can enjoy hunting it, rather than to argue about few inches. Just my two cents.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from VAHunter540 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Hey while we are at it, can we get Rompola's buck scored also?

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidflorida wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Just a question ,why would you buy these antlers.To make a profit I would think.would they not be worth more for you to market if they where a record.Seems like that is the angel it going.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Silverback wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I think that B&C is a crock. I like the SCI scoring method better. Who the hell would call that tine "sharing a common base" a deduction. You can keep B&C and shove them. I would NEVER enter an aminal with them, even if it was the new worlds record. Thats just my two cents

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from steve182 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

It's an impressive buck. Sounds like the buyer took a gamble and overpaid for a rack he thought was a record. As much as I the saying "It is what it is..." it's appropriate here. Is it possible there are different opinions on the score or Abnormal point classification,...sure. That should be no surprise.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I love it when people jump to a conclussion before they know the story. First of all over 70% of the so called world class bucks have been bought or sold, that is why we get a chance to see them at Bass Pro or Cabelas and other deer show and in the Legendary Collection. It is legal and it is the hunters property to do what he wants with it. Will the antlers be worth more if its a WR? yep no doubt. Is this all about the money? No way. Its about trying to get the truth out about this great deer. It has been miss handled from early on by a few members of WBBC and B&C. Field and Stream you sure jumped to your conclussion on this matter and never talked to anyone on this issue,I don't know why you would do that?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Dances with Deer wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I'm not an official scorer but from day one could see the common shared base this buck has. Many others in the past have been ruled the same. Those two points do not at all look like they rise independently from the main beam. SCI and Buckmasters? Paaaleeeeze. Too each their own, but B&C and P&Y at least have integrity. Scott, interview the owner and Reneau and get "the truth" ... that's the least you can do after opening another can of worms.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Kevin wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

The Curt Van Lith P&Y buck of MN is a case where it went in the hunter's favor and the deer almost was a state record. The King buck is just one of many 'almost' cases but it just hurts more when the animal threatens a record. Overall the B&C and P&Y systems are well-made and fair, and lines have to drawn in the sand at some point. When it comes down to it a typical buck should be just that and same for a non-typical. No one can argue that the King buck is huge and a trophy in anyone's book!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Silverback wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

So, that shared base makes it Non Typical, pllllaaase (that for you dances). Oh no, thats right, its a typical buck so the G3's on both side are thrown out, nice. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll keep the gross score god (and some great nutrients) gave it. Thats exactly the reason I like SCI. No polictics, it is what it is.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I believe if both sides have common base that makes them typical. You put your base lines at different location so you don't "double dip" meaning getting tine lenth that goes past the mass area.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from VAHunter540 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Since we are talkin shoulda woulda couldas, what "would" the score be if the G3 wasnt counted as a deduction? Would it be larger than the 213" Im sure it most likely would be or there wouldnt be this story.... Im just curious to know "what could have been".

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from rock rat wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Wonder how much meat was on that thing.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from walmsley wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Fish Jay-are you now, or do you plan on selling replica's of this rack? just curious.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mike Diehl wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Guess I'm not impressed by all this arbitrage over a rack. Where I grew up the standard was dressed weight. A big rack was nice, but it wasn't what got you a patch to wear on your backpack.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Grandview wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

The point wasn't ruled abnormal by "common base" or "point on point". It was ruled abnormal by being an offset point. The rule is described in the B&C reply and a link to an article published in 2000 in their Fair Chase magazine. Both sources are still available online on the B&C Trophy Watch segment.

The point was analyzed and ruled on by a panel of senior B&C and P&Y personnel while the broken beam was being inspected on whether admissible for B&C scoring.

The only person contesting that fact is the owner of the rack.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Grandview call Glen hisey and ask him if he was part of the mistory panel. Again he said he was not! Call Jack and ask him if he said he made the ruling by himself and then stated he left the room and let the other guys handle it. i think you will have a much better chance finding bigfoot than this panel. Do your homework 100% not only on one side. I still can't believe a WBBC member would tell Mr. King if he didn't enter the animal in B&C it was not welcome in WBBC, thats just low. Many deer are entered in state clubs and not B&C so whats up with that. Gv I have asked you to do these things before and you ignore it. B&C scorers have been put on notice not to even look at the antlers on their own time thats bull poop, i thought they where volanteers and donated their time for the B&C club.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Silverback wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Im not sure anyone is contesting that fact that there is a common base, I just think it's crap not to count that as typical and it's own point. Just MY opinion.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from robertt55 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Where is the list of woulda-coulda-shoulda WORLD RECORD typicals? Please. That's a weak statement. Also what about all of those esteemed B&C scorers (Bushy, Ramsey and Ladlaw) who have actually touched the rack and say it is a typical? I say panel-score the dang thing and remove all doubt. This isn't just a run of the mill 180-inch deer. Even a casual observer like me can see that.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bellringer wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

If I were ever so fortunate as to kill a potential world record, I would never allow it to be scored.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Grandview wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

There exists a public statement of who was on the panel (at least three of four are named......past or current senior officials in B&C and P&Y), and their agreement of the ruling. The owner of the rack is the only one who disputes that fact.

Likewise, it is only the owner of the rack who is creating contradicting data about scoring, motivation, procedures, and hearsay evidence.

If you think you have a legitimate issue on the B&C ruling of an abnormal point, then speak to that specific ruling. It's been defined by B&C.......with explanation and photos. Have the scorers who disagree with the ruling speak to that point also.

Procedures were followed. The ruling was made by a panel. Both WBBC and B&C records are adhering to that ruling and the subsequent scoring.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from ENO wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

"You can love or hate the high standards that typical racks are held to under the B&C rules, but the system is theirs."

This is my favorite line from above. If you go to the Deer Classics and look at the racks it becomes clear that B&C is only one arbitrary method of determining a trophy. Most of the racks that I personally find impressive score far less than expected. You can belly-ache all you want but it is their system.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from walmsley wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Controversy can be a good thing when selling a commodity, especially when it comes with lot's of "free" media coverage-"advertizing".-I.E. Internet Item #0162
Johnny King Replica-WI.
Score: Pending 215 1/8"
Typical
Price:$3500.00 each
"plus shipping"

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

No its our system. It was made our system by the printing of a set of rules that is available to the public. GV I take a man for his word when you ask him to his face and he tells you somthing not from a statement typed by someone from behind a keyboard that you don't have to answer to. Way to easy to run and hide.
Scott call Ron Busher I just got off the phone with him and he wants to talk to you. I have his numbers call me , you have the number.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Grandview wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Look......it is not unusual at all for B&C or P&Y scorers to submit scores for entry to either organization that are subsequently overruled and lowered by the respective organizations........mostly because of abnormal point rulings. The respective organizations have very stringent normal/abnormal rules. And their symmetry rules may result in huge impacts for having an abnormal point.

In recent years three whitetail trophies in contention for world record status in B&C or P&Y have been ruled as above, and received significant scoring reductions.

In other record organizations where this symmetry or abnormal point assessment isn't as stringent.....these bucks are current records.

The Koberstein buck is currently Buckmaster's typical record at 218 3/8. The Zaft buck is currently Buckmaster's compound bow record at 205 7/8. The King buck is currently Buckmaster's perfect record at 198 2/8. Buckmasters does not use spread in their scoring (except as informational)........so you can get an idea of how big these respective racks are.

They are not B&C or P&Y records, however. And because of their abnormal point status, they are ranked considerably lower in B&C or P&Y records. In fact, the Zaft and King trophies have been requested to be removed from the records in those organizations by the hunters.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

walmsley, Nice try the first mold for replicas was done long before I bought the deer. Why do you think I never anwered you! Thanks for playing. Why is it you guys are all about the money issue? That dosen't change that the deer grew a 6X6 typical rack and no amount of money can change that..... I never once advertised anything and by the way all big deer have been replicated and are for sale. Still a legal activity and we do still live in a capitalist society, don't we? B&C sells books shirts plaques and the scoring veniew goes to the highest bidder, so are they wrong also?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from NHshtr wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

So nobody mentioned how that deer tasted! Were the backstraps nice and tender? Grilled in some nice spicy sauce?

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Silverback wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

NHshtr, If done properly THEY ARE ALL TASTY. mmmmmm The answer to you question, splash of soy, garlic herb and garlic, hot off the grill.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 2Poppa wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I think it is one heck of a Monster ... especially seeing it in Fish Jay's hands! Here is a link.

http://youtu.be/FbEKQmBt4Nw

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from jjas wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

The spiel about B&C selling replicas and what not is true. The fact that it's legal to buy and sell racks is true. But I think the real question(s) for the average joe are really simple...

Would anyone be fighting this hard for the deer to be scored as a typical if it wasn't a potential new world record? Nope...

And would most of us care? Nope.

And do many folks think this is about money as much as anything else? Yep.

But then, that's the nature of deer hunting today. It's as much about trophys as it is anything else.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ENO wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Thanks for the link 2Poppa. That is a monster. Looking at fish jay turn that rack around I can definitely why there is arguement. The picture at the top of this page doesn't make it as clear. That main beam is got a crap load of mass.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from ENO wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Thanks for the link 2Poppa. That is a monster. Looking at fish jay turn that rack around I can definitely why there is arguement. The picture at the top of this page doesn't make it as clear. That main beam is got a crap load of mass.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mike Diehl wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

"So nobody mentioned how that deer tasted! Were the backstraps nice and tender? Grilled in some nice spicy sauce?"

Knew I could find someone who'd focus on the pracitcal side. Good call, NHshtr!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from gman3186 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

i could careless what a deer scores. horns are nice but meat is so much better and what really does it for me is the memories made. being able to share those memories with friends and family is what its all about

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from steve182 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

are you sure it wasn't killed inside a pen?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

They can't raise deer like this in a pen.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

this is one of the reasons i don't bother with the record books.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Hank111 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

fish jay, being a collecter I am sure you must know they can and do raise typical and non-typical bucks way bigger than this buck. Granted most dont get the staining like a wild buck but they are raiseing deer to 500 inches now and 230+ inch typicals. Obviously they are domestic deer and should never be compared to a wild buck.Honestly the point does not appear to me to be a matching typical point.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Dances with Deer wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Fish Jay, care to say what you paid for the rack and WHY you paid that much for it? Just trying to figure out WHY someone would even want a big buck rack shot by someone else if it wasn't about the hope of making big $.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Dances same reason people buy someone elses painting, they collect and enyoy the art work. Of course you don't do this to lose money so you still have to make sure on your purchase. I own several other very big deer and maybe someday i will sell maybe not who knows.
Hank my point was they still can't get that wild look, so yes i do know they are raising some giants.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Hank111 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

fish jay, you are right, a wild buck has a completely different look. I would rather look at that buck than any painting also.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

personally, i don't buy racks. i either take them while hunting or pick up sheds. just can't get the same satisfaction from someone elses.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim Berardi wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

And we wonder why many people make negative remarks about hunters & their IQ's. It should be a trophy in anyone's book regardless of the score. Hunting/outdoors have always been my passion but I can see why many young people are finding other pastimes with all this uncalled for DRAMA! Just a piece of BONE anyway.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from mexhunter wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

some hell of a deer to ME. who cares if its not a record, i put blood sweat and tears into every single deer, so they are ALL special.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Dances with Deer wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

B&C has another article on why this buck isn't a record typical on its site today, including closeup photo with "lines" showing the tines in question and why they don't match.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

And again they can't be honest with the people. it is getting very sad how what was once such a prominent organization is getting so irrelevant. Sad but true. i hope the new blood at B&C can restore what the old guard lost. Field and Stream I have been out of town. Have i mist your calls? Or you just hidding from the facts? Again I will show you all the info, but don't let some facts get in the way of your agenda! Jay

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from JaKe11 wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

I'd shoot it.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

Field and Stream I am not going to play for long. I have offered all info to everyone. Iam me, one guy, whos father taught me right from wrong and "fight" damn it Fight, if your right. I am and I will not stop until the TRUTH is written! B&C has tried ruin me name and Mr. Kings name and that is wrong. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. 4 Years and still no takers, typical Just like the king! Field and stream get a bigger budget and maybe you get the facts like deer and deer hunting insteaqd of being a shock jock like Howard Stern!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Dances with Deer wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

WOW, I know you're frustrated, but you're starting to sound desperate. Enjoy the great rack. Maybe you can still make some dollars off of it as "Buckmasters" #1. You may be burning your bridges with B&C; then again, the ruling has already been made so I don't understand why you're working so hard to try to get it changed other than the $ that a WR from B&C would command. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd say this whole controversy is hurting the image of "bone collecting" more than it is the B&C system.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 44 weeks ago

That is yet to be seen. Did you see that B&C changed their ruling yet again? That is why we are at this point. There have been alot more things happening the past week in favor of the King Buck. Sorry I can get a little upset at times, but when the deer is available to anyone anytime and the scorers that have scored it and have put a tape to it are available I think it only right to do a full job. I did have a very nice talk with Field and Stream yesterday and I thank them for that. Did youi see the picture B&C came out with in their last statement with the lines drawn? The base line (in red) was so deep into the beam its funny.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from NY Hunter wrote 2 years 35 weeks ago

I shot the number two typical buck B&C in New York state last season. It scored 182" net 206" gross. It also has two point that share a base. The rack lost about 8". It is what it is. I knew the rules going in and the buck scores what it scores. I am happy with it either way. B&C is the true standard when it comes to scoring a rack. They can't start changing the rules now.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ricky Rankin wrote 1 year 41 weeks ago

I think the entire conversation should have been over the moment the rack was seperated from the skull! I believe that the buck should have been scored like a shed buck since one main beam had been shot off. The sad part about the entire deal is the buck is now a controversy because of the score and not because it is one of the MOST AMAZING whitetail deer ever to roam the earth!!!!! What a SHAME.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Steve Eide wrote 1 year 30 weeks ago

Check out the new Nebraska Typical Whitetail record shot by Kevin Petrzilka. They ruled the right side g3 and g4 as individual tines on that one. www.buckmanager.com

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from buck1765 wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago

Not sure how this is not scored as a typical. Look at the current Minnesota typical shot by Curt Van lith. It is scored as a typical 10.

0 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment

from buckhunter wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

B&C scorers are under added pressure due to the dollar value of big bucks. Kudos to the scorers for sticking to their guns. They guys wanting the higher score are looking to profit off the deer.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from VAHunter540 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Hey while we are at it, can we get Rompola's buck scored also?

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

personally, i don't buy racks. i either take them while hunting or pick up sheds. just can't get the same satisfaction from someone elses.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mike Diehl wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Guess I'm not impressed by all this arbitrage over a rack. Where I grew up the standard was dressed weight. A big rack was nice, but it wasn't what got you a patch to wear on your backpack.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim Berardi wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

And we wonder why many people make negative remarks about hunters & their IQ's. It should be a trophy in anyone's book regardless of the score. Hunting/outdoors have always been my passion but I can see why many young people are finding other pastimes with all this uncalled for DRAMA! Just a piece of BONE anyway.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from jjas wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

What a mess.....My understanding is the rack has been sold and the new owner is really hoping B&C accepts the higher score....

Gee...I wonder why?

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Sold the rack huh! If that was my deer no amount of money would make me part with it!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from bustedclays wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

It's silly drama like this that turns people like me off of deer hunting.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I own the antlers and have for over a year. Jack did not have a panel look at the antlers in PA. He told me that on the phone! He said he made the ruling by himself! The second time I asked him he said he left the room and the other guys made the ruling. At the Iowa deer classic one of the other guys said he did not make the ruling on the tine, only on the Break. Jack is having trouble remembering the truth.... Also Buckner is another story I wont get into now but a lot more is coming out... Field and stream call me and I will fill you in and will make the antlers available to you any time my number is 715-693-1879.. i have nothing to hide, not one thing...

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bioboy wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Well the focus has certainly shifted the wrong way. The Boone and Crockett Club began the scoring of big game species of North America to have a record of them before they were lost, this was at the point were most of our game was gone. Luckily the conservation movement (that B&C also helped to start) worked, and we can still shoot trophies like this deer today. It would be better to just appreciate that a deer like this is here and that we can enjoy hunting it, rather than to argue about few inches. Just my two cents.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Dances with Deer wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I'm not an official scorer but from day one could see the common shared base this buck has. Many others in the past have been ruled the same. Those two points do not at all look like they rise independently from the main beam. SCI and Buckmasters? Paaaleeeeze. Too each their own, but B&C and P&Y at least have integrity. Scott, interview the owner and Reneau and get "the truth" ... that's the least you can do after opening another can of worms.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from rock rat wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Wonder how much meat was on that thing.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Grandview wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

The point wasn't ruled abnormal by "common base" or "point on point". It was ruled abnormal by being an offset point. The rule is described in the B&C reply and a link to an article published in 2000 in their Fair Chase magazine. Both sources are still available online on the B&C Trophy Watch segment.

The point was analyzed and ruled on by a panel of senior B&C and P&Y personnel while the broken beam was being inspected on whether admissible for B&C scoring.

The only person contesting that fact is the owner of the rack.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bellringer wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

If I were ever so fortunate as to kill a potential world record, I would never allow it to be scored.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from ENO wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

"You can love or hate the high standards that typical racks are held to under the B&C rules, but the system is theirs."

This is my favorite line from above. If you go to the Deer Classics and look at the racks it becomes clear that B&C is only one arbitrary method of determining a trophy. Most of the racks that I personally find impressive score far less than expected. You can belly-ache all you want but it is their system.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from walmsley wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Controversy can be a good thing when selling a commodity, especially when it comes with lot's of "free" media coverage-"advertizing".-I.E. Internet Item #0162
Johnny King Replica-WI.
Score: Pending 215 1/8"
Typical
Price:$3500.00 each
"plus shipping"

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from NHshtr wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

So nobody mentioned how that deer tasted! Were the backstraps nice and tender? Grilled in some nice spicy sauce?

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from ENO wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Thanks for the link 2Poppa. That is a monster. Looking at fish jay turn that rack around I can definitely why there is arguement. The picture at the top of this page doesn't make it as clear. That main beam is got a crap load of mass.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mike Diehl wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

"So nobody mentioned how that deer tasted! Were the backstraps nice and tender? Grilled in some nice spicy sauce?"

Knew I could find someone who'd focus on the pracitcal side. Good call, NHshtr!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

this is one of the reasons i don't bother with the record books.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Dances with Deer wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Fish Jay, care to say what you paid for the rack and WHY you paid that much for it? Just trying to figure out WHY someone would even want a big buck rack shot by someone else if it wasn't about the hope of making big $.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from mexhunter wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

some hell of a deer to ME. who cares if its not a record, i put blood sweat and tears into every single deer, so they are ALL special.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Dances with Deer wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

B&C has another article on why this buck isn't a record typical on its site today, including closeup photo with "lines" showing the tines in question and why they don't match.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Dances with Deer wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

WOW, I know you're frustrated, but you're starting to sound desperate. Enjoy the great rack. Maybe you can still make some dollars off of it as "Buckmasters" #1. You may be burning your bridges with B&C; then again, the ruling has already been made so I don't understand why you're working so hard to try to get it changed other than the $ that a WR from B&C would command. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd say this whole controversy is hurting the image of "bone collecting" more than it is the B&C system.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quinton Schmelz... wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

question, how bad must his hands have been shaking to hit the antler?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from jjas wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

The spiel about B&C selling replicas and what not is true. The fact that it's legal to buy and sell racks is true. But I think the real question(s) for the average joe are really simple...

Would anyone be fighting this hard for the deer to be scored as a typical if it wasn't a potential new world record? Nope...

And would most of us care? Nope.

And do many folks think this is about money as much as anything else? Yep.

But then, that's the nature of deer hunting today. It's as much about trophys as it is anything else.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from gman3186 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

i could careless what a deer scores. horns are nice but meat is so much better and what really does it for me is the memories made. being able to share those memories with friends and family is what its all about

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ga hunter wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

World record or not that is one monster deer!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from walmsley wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I would just like to add to the above story, that BnC has a system in place where as it's official measurers do report to Mr. Reneau for guidance and direction on difficult scoring situations: but it doesn't actually stop there. Mr. reneau reports to Mr. Eldon Buckner, who is Chairman of the BnC records Committee, and that committee is made up of 30 official measurers. All this is in place to assure the proper outcome in accordance with BnC guidelines. It's not a one man operation!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidflorida wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Just a question ,why would you buy these antlers.To make a profit I would think.would they not be worth more for you to market if they where a record.Seems like that is the angel it going.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Silverback wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I think that B&C is a crock. I like the SCI scoring method better. Who the hell would call that tine "sharing a common base" a deduction. You can keep B&C and shove them. I would NEVER enter an aminal with them, even if it was the new worlds record. Thats just my two cents

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from steve182 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

It's an impressive buck. Sounds like the buyer took a gamble and overpaid for a rack he thought was a record. As much as I the saying "It is what it is..." it's appropriate here. Is it possible there are different opinions on the score or Abnormal point classification,...sure. That should be no surprise.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I love it when people jump to a conclussion before they know the story. First of all over 70% of the so called world class bucks have been bought or sold, that is why we get a chance to see them at Bass Pro or Cabelas and other deer show and in the Legendary Collection. It is legal and it is the hunters property to do what he wants with it. Will the antlers be worth more if its a WR? yep no doubt. Is this all about the money? No way. Its about trying to get the truth out about this great deer. It has been miss handled from early on by a few members of WBBC and B&C. Field and Stream you sure jumped to your conclussion on this matter and never talked to anyone on this issue,I don't know why you would do that?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Kevin wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

The Curt Van Lith P&Y buck of MN is a case where it went in the hunter's favor and the deer almost was a state record. The King buck is just one of many 'almost' cases but it just hurts more when the animal threatens a record. Overall the B&C and P&Y systems are well-made and fair, and lines have to drawn in the sand at some point. When it comes down to it a typical buck should be just that and same for a non-typical. No one can argue that the King buck is huge and a trophy in anyone's book!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Silverback wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

So, that shared base makes it Non Typical, pllllaaase (that for you dances). Oh no, thats right, its a typical buck so the G3's on both side are thrown out, nice. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll keep the gross score god (and some great nutrients) gave it. Thats exactly the reason I like SCI. No polictics, it is what it is.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I believe if both sides have common base that makes them typical. You put your base lines at different location so you don't "double dip" meaning getting tine lenth that goes past the mass area.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from VAHunter540 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Since we are talkin shoulda woulda couldas, what "would" the score be if the G3 wasnt counted as a deduction? Would it be larger than the 213" Im sure it most likely would be or there wouldnt be this story.... Im just curious to know "what could have been".

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from walmsley wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Fish Jay-are you now, or do you plan on selling replica's of this rack? just curious.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Grandview call Glen hisey and ask him if he was part of the mistory panel. Again he said he was not! Call Jack and ask him if he said he made the ruling by himself and then stated he left the room and let the other guys handle it. i think you will have a much better chance finding bigfoot than this panel. Do your homework 100% not only on one side. I still can't believe a WBBC member would tell Mr. King if he didn't enter the animal in B&C it was not welcome in WBBC, thats just low. Many deer are entered in state clubs and not B&C so whats up with that. Gv I have asked you to do these things before and you ignore it. B&C scorers have been put on notice not to even look at the antlers on their own time thats bull poop, i thought they where volanteers and donated their time for the B&C club.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Silverback wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Im not sure anyone is contesting that fact that there is a common base, I just think it's crap not to count that as typical and it's own point. Just MY opinion.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from robertt55 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Where is the list of woulda-coulda-shoulda WORLD RECORD typicals? Please. That's a weak statement. Also what about all of those esteemed B&C scorers (Bushy, Ramsey and Ladlaw) who have actually touched the rack and say it is a typical? I say panel-score the dang thing and remove all doubt. This isn't just a run of the mill 180-inch deer. Even a casual observer like me can see that.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Grandview wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

There exists a public statement of who was on the panel (at least three of four are named......past or current senior officials in B&C and P&Y), and their agreement of the ruling. The owner of the rack is the only one who disputes that fact.

Likewise, it is only the owner of the rack who is creating contradicting data about scoring, motivation, procedures, and hearsay evidence.

If you think you have a legitimate issue on the B&C ruling of an abnormal point, then speak to that specific ruling. It's been defined by B&C.......with explanation and photos. Have the scorers who disagree with the ruling speak to that point also.

Procedures were followed. The ruling was made by a panel. Both WBBC and B&C records are adhering to that ruling and the subsequent scoring.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

No its our system. It was made our system by the printing of a set of rules that is available to the public. GV I take a man for his word when you ask him to his face and he tells you somthing not from a statement typed by someone from behind a keyboard that you don't have to answer to. Way to easy to run and hide.
Scott call Ron Busher I just got off the phone with him and he wants to talk to you. I have his numbers call me , you have the number.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Grandview wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Look......it is not unusual at all for B&C or P&Y scorers to submit scores for entry to either organization that are subsequently overruled and lowered by the respective organizations........mostly because of abnormal point rulings. The respective organizations have very stringent normal/abnormal rules. And their symmetry rules may result in huge impacts for having an abnormal point.

In recent years three whitetail trophies in contention for world record status in B&C or P&Y have been ruled as above, and received significant scoring reductions.

In other record organizations where this symmetry or abnormal point assessment isn't as stringent.....these bucks are current records.

The Koberstein buck is currently Buckmaster's typical record at 218 3/8. The Zaft buck is currently Buckmaster's compound bow record at 205 7/8. The King buck is currently Buckmaster's perfect record at 198 2/8. Buckmasters does not use spread in their scoring (except as informational)........so you can get an idea of how big these respective racks are.

They are not B&C or P&Y records, however. And because of their abnormal point status, they are ranked considerably lower in B&C or P&Y records. In fact, the Zaft and King trophies have been requested to be removed from the records in those organizations by the hunters.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

walmsley, Nice try the first mold for replicas was done long before I bought the deer. Why do you think I never anwered you! Thanks for playing. Why is it you guys are all about the money issue? That dosen't change that the deer grew a 6X6 typical rack and no amount of money can change that..... I never once advertised anything and by the way all big deer have been replicated and are for sale. Still a legal activity and we do still live in a capitalist society, don't we? B&C sells books shirts plaques and the scoring veniew goes to the highest bidder, so are they wrong also?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Silverback wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

NHshtr, If done properly THEY ARE ALL TASTY. mmmmmm The answer to you question, splash of soy, garlic herb and garlic, hot off the grill.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 2Poppa wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

I think it is one heck of a Monster ... especially seeing it in Fish Jay's hands! Here is a link.

http://youtu.be/FbEKQmBt4Nw

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from ENO wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Thanks for the link 2Poppa. That is a monster. Looking at fish jay turn that rack around I can definitely why there is arguement. The picture at the top of this page doesn't make it as clear. That main beam is got a crap load of mass.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from steve182 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

are you sure it wasn't killed inside a pen?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

They can't raise deer like this in a pen.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Hank111 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

fish jay, being a collecter I am sure you must know they can and do raise typical and non-typical bucks way bigger than this buck. Granted most dont get the staining like a wild buck but they are raiseing deer to 500 inches now and 230+ inch typicals. Obviously they are domestic deer and should never be compared to a wild buck.Honestly the point does not appear to me to be a matching typical point.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

Dances same reason people buy someone elses painting, they collect and enyoy the art work. Of course you don't do this to lose money so you still have to make sure on your purchase. I own several other very big deer and maybe someday i will sell maybe not who knows.
Hank my point was they still can't get that wild look, so yes i do know they are raising some giants.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Hank111 wrote 2 years 46 weeks ago

fish jay, you are right, a wild buck has a completely different look. I would rather look at that buck than any painting also.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

And again they can't be honest with the people. it is getting very sad how what was once such a prominent organization is getting so irrelevant. Sad but true. i hope the new blood at B&C can restore what the old guard lost. Field and Stream I have been out of town. Have i mist your calls? Or you just hidding from the facts? Again I will show you all the info, but don't let some facts get in the way of your agenda! Jay

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from JaKe11 wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

I'd shoot it.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 45 weeks ago

Field and Stream I am not going to play for long. I have offered all info to everyone. Iam me, one guy, whos father taught me right from wrong and "fight" damn it Fight, if your right. I am and I will not stop until the TRUTH is written! B&C has tried ruin me name and Mr. Kings name and that is wrong. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. 4 Years and still no takers, typical Just like the king! Field and stream get a bigger budget and maybe you get the facts like deer and deer hunting insteaqd of being a shock jock like Howard Stern!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from fish jay wrote 2 years 44 weeks ago

That is yet to be seen. Did you see that B&C changed their ruling yet again? That is why we are at this point. There have been alot more things happening the past week in favor of the King Buck. Sorry I can get a little upset at times, but when the deer is available to anyone anytime and the scorers that have scored it and have put a tape to it are available I think it only right to do a full job. I did have a very nice talk with Field and Stream yesterday and I thank them for that. Did youi see the picture B&C came out with in their last statement with the lines drawn? The base line (in red) was so deep into the beam its funny.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from NY Hunter wrote 2 years 35 weeks ago

I shot the number two typical buck B&C in New York state last season. It scored 182" net 206" gross. It also has two point that share a base. The rack lost about 8". It is what it is. I knew the rules going in and the buck scores what it scores. I am happy with it either way. B&C is the true standard when it comes to scoring a rack. They can't start changing the rules now.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ricky Rankin wrote 1 year 41 weeks ago

I think the entire conversation should have been over the moment the rack was seperated from the skull! I believe that the buck should have been scored like a shed buck since one main beam had been shot off. The sad part about the entire deal is the buck is now a controversy because of the score and not because it is one of the MOST AMAZING whitetail deer ever to roam the earth!!!!! What a SHAME.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Steve Eide wrote 1 year 30 weeks ago

Check out the new Nebraska Typical Whitetail record shot by Kevin Petrzilka. They ruled the right side g3 and g4 as individual tines on that one. www.buckmanager.com

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from buck1765 wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago

Not sure how this is not scored as a typical. Look at the current Minnesota typical shot by Curt Van lith. It is scored as a typical 10.

0 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment