The "Official" Bang-flop survey

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The "Official" Bang-flop survey

Uploaded on November 23, 2009

Some people might remember that about a 8 months ago we all got into a fairly heated discussion about whether big bullets kill animals any better than small bullets do.

here:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/ammunition/2009/03/bourjaily-bucking...

and here:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/answers/hunting/whitetails/what-use/clay-c...

Well, I've decided to conduct a little study to see what we can learn about those elusive "bang-flop" kills.

I will post a list of questions, and it would be great if everyone could answer the questions as accurately as possible for all the whitetail deer you and your hunting party have taken this year.

The more data points we have, the better this data will be, so get the data from your friends'/ relatives' kills and post that too.

After we get a bunch of responses, (hopefully a few hundred) I will tally up the data, do some statistics, and share the results and pretty graphs with everyone.

we should be able to answer questions like:
-What % of .22-250 shots are bang-flop kills?
-What % of .45-70 shots are bang flop kills?
-How does range effect the distance ran after the shot?
-What major organs produce bang flop kills when hit?
...etc

Finally, since this is an unscientific survey, the respondents will be self-selected. That means that extraordinary kills will be more likely to be reported than normal ones. So to try to balance this out, please report all the kills you can, not just the exciting ones.

Thanks!
This should be pretty cool.

Top Rated

All Replies

from ken.mcloud wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

Questionnaire:

1)State / Province of kill?

2)Buck / Doe?

3)Ammunition used? (be as specific as possible, brand, bullet weight, etc...)

4)Approximate range of shot?

5)Major organs damaged by shot? (again, be as specific as possible)

6)Was the shot through and through? (yes/no)

7)Was a second shot required? (yes/no)

8)Approximate distance ran by deer after it had been shot? (for bang-flop kills, this is zero)

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from ken.mcloud wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

I will post what my family has done so far, If everyone could enter their data by copy/pasting the questionnaire like this it will make my job a lot easier when I have to enter the data later:

Deer #1:

1)State / Province of kill?

New York

2)Buck / Doe?

Buck

3)Ammunition used? (be as specific as possible, brand, bullet weight, etc...)

2 3/4" 1 oz rifled slug, 12 ga., Federal

4)Approximate range of shot?

40 yds

5)Major organs damaged by shot? (again, be as specific as possible)

Destroyed one lung and the liver, grazed the other lung

6)Was the shot through and through? (yes/no)

yes

7)Was a second shot required? (yes/no)

8)Approximate distance ran by deer after it had been shot? (for bang-flop kills, this is zero)

60 yds

Deer #2:

1)State / Province of kill?

New York

2)Buck / Doe?

Buck

3)Ammunition used? (be as specific as possible, brand, bullet weight, etc...)

3" 1 oz sabot slug, 12 ga., Lightfield

4)Approximate range of shot?

30 yds

5)Major organs damaged by shot? (again, be as specific as possible)

heart and one lung

6)Was the shot through and through? (yes/no)

yes

7)Was a second shot required? (yes/no)

8)Approximate distance ran by deer after it had been shot? (for bang-flop kills, this is zero)

0 yds (bang-flop!)

Deer #3:

1)State / Province of kill?

New York

2)Buck / Doe?

Buck

3)Ammunition used? (be as specific as possible, brand, bullet weight, etc...)

3" 1 oz sabot slug, 12 ga., Lightfield

4)Approximate range of shot?

60 yds

5)Major organs damaged by shot? (again, be as specific as possible)

one lung, front leg muscle

6)Was the shot through and through? (yes/no)

Deer #4:

1)State / Province of kill?

New York

2)Buck / Doe?

Doe

3)Ammunition used? (be as specific as possible, brand, bullet weight, etc...)

2 3/4" 1 oz rifled slug, 12 ga., Federal

4)Approximate range of shot?

45 yds

5)Major organs damaged by shot? (again, be as specific as possible)

one lung, front leg muscle

6)Was the shot through and through? (yes/no)

yes

7)Was a second shot required? (yes/no)

8)Approximate distance ran by deer after it had been shot? (for bang-flop kills, this is zero)

80 yds

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from deerslayer1234 wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

deer#1
1.) Chautauqua county, NY
2.)buck
3.)12 gauge slug I think it was a winchester brand
4.)15 yards
5.)both lungs and heart
6.)yes
7.)no
8.)20 yards

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from Cgull wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

Deer #4:

1)Arkansas

2)Buck

3)Ammunition used? Winchester Super-X 150 grn

4)Approximate range of shot? 60 yrd

5)Major organs damaged by shot? Heart

6)Was the shot through and through? Yes

7)Was a second shot required? NO

8)Approximate distance ran by deer after it had been shot? (for bang-flop kills, this is zero)

110 yrds

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from ken.mcloud wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

cgull- What caliber would that Winchester super-X be?

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from Beekeeper wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

1. Georgia
2. Buck
3. .530 Pure lead roundball, 17/000 pillow ticking, 90 grains of ffg Goex.
4. 20 yards
5. lungs, vascular
6. Yes
7. No
8. 0

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from Big O wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

1)Arkansas
2)Doe/Bobcat
3)295 "power-belt" .50 cal M/L 100gr. 777 pelets/180 gr. Vital Shok, .300 Win Mag.
4)40 yds/15'
5)Both lungs/Unknown
6)Yes/YES
7)No/NO(lol)
8)150+/0

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from Cgull wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

270 in WSM.

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from dangerous game wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

1)New Mexico
2)buck(Rocky Mountain Mulie)
3)7mm remington magnum 150 gr. win. super X
4)200+yds
5)lungs and possibly heart
6)yes
7)no
8)0(it was running too)

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from ken.mcloud wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

thanks Cgull!

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from deerslayer1234 wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

I forgot to put the rest of the deer on....
deer#2
1. erie,county PA
2. doe
3. 30-30 winchester
4. 40 yards
5. lungs
6. yes
7. yes
8. 0- it didnt run at all
Deer#3
1.erie county PA
2. buck
3. 30-30 win.
4.45 yards
5.heart+lungs
6.yes
7.no
8.30 yards

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from idduckhntr wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

Well here is the low down out of 23 deer that I have killed in my 23 years of hunting with 243, 30.06 7mm WBY from ranges of 10 yards to 500 yrds I have only had 1 go farther than 10 feet and that was partly my fault and the will of the animal all were shot in the heart&lungs.

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from 4ply87 wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

Heres mine

1. Illinois

2. Buck

3. 2 3/4" 1 oz. 12 gauge Brenneke KO Sabbot slug

4. 35 yards

5. Heart

6. Yes

7. No

8. 10

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from MidnightBanjo wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

1)State / Province of kill?
Oklahoma

2)Buck / Doe?
Buck (9-pts)

3)Ammunition used? (be as specific as possible, brand, bullet weight, etc...)
Rem. CorLokt Ultra, 30-06, 165gr

4)Approximate range of shot?
30 yds (32 steps)

5)Major organs damaged by shot? (again, be as specific as possible)
Both lungs and clipped the heart

6)Was the shot through and through? (yes/no)
Yes - didn't touch a rib on entry or exit

7)Was a second shot required? (yes/no)
No

8)Approximate distance ran by deer after it had been shot? (for bang-flop kills, this is zero)
0 - true bang-flop!

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from Big O wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

1) Arkansas
2) Doe/Nubbin Buck(button-buck)
3).300 Win. Mag. 180gr Vital Shok
4)40/100
5)lungs/heart(both) DESTROYED
6)Yes(both)
7)No
8)Zero

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

Food for thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects...

Hydrostatic shock
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Average time until incapacitation decreases rapidly with pressure wave magnitude as magnitudes approach 500 psi. See: Links between traumatic brain injury and ballistic pressure waves originating in the thoracic cavity and extremities. Brain Injury 21(7): 657–662, 2007.The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues.[1][2] There is scientific evidence that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects.[3] The debate between proponents of bullets that are "light and fast" versus bullets that are "slow and heavy" often refers to this phenomenon.

Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.[4] Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.

In such meticulously selected cases brain tissue was examined histologically; samples were taken from brain hemispheres, basal ganglia, the pons, the oblongate and from the cerebellum. Cufflike pattern haemorrhages around small brain vessels were found in all specimens. These haemorrhages are caused by sudden changes of the intravascular blood pressure as a result of a compression of intrathoracic great vessels by a shock wave caused by a penetrating bullet.

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from platte river rat wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

Nov 14 thru Nov 20, 2009---Platte River valley---Nebraska---3 mule deer bucks---fist two--4x5, 5X5, both over 4 yrs old. gun--winchester model 70--cal 300wsm--bullet handloaded --Hornady 165sst--range 278 to 407 yards---both bang-flop--lungs--heart--mush--no exit ---third muley--5 x 5--3 1/2 yes--gun--Remington model 600--243 win.---bullet handloaded--speer 105 gr--range 193 yards--bang-flop--lungs--heart--mush--bullet exit behind right shoulder. All ranges by Bushnell rangefinder. Hunt was on family land from a cabelas ground blind. Shooters--male 75 yrs--female 74 yrs. Over 40 yrs hunting together. Hope this gives you what you want clay, we always enjoy your commets.

+2 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from mihunter wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

1)michigan

2)doe

3)223 gr aero tip powerbelt, 50 cal, 150 gr. powder

4)100 yards

5)neck shot/jugular

6)no

7)no

8)0

deer 2:
1)michigan

2)Doe

3)7mm-08 140gr. winchester grey box

4)250 yards

5)double lung

6)yes

7)no

8)50 yards

deer 3
1)michigan

2)doe

3)7mm-08 140gr. winchester grey box

4)50 yards

5)lungs/heart

6)yes

7)no

8)0

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from TNhunter wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

deer 1

1.Alabama
2.Buck (6 point)
3.30-06 165 gr. remington corelocks
4.70 yards
5.lungs, backside shoulder (quartering)
6.yes destroyed the shoulder
7.no
8.0

deer #2

1.Tennessee
2.Doe
3.30-06 165 gr remington corelocks
4.50 yards
5.lungs/heart
6.yes
7.no
8.-5 she was hit, stood up, and took 2 steps back on her back feet, then fell.

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from slothman wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

Texas
Buck
243 federal vital shock
85 yard shot
both lungs mush, back shoulder
yes shot exited
no other shot required
ran 40 yards

Deer 2
doe
7stw
130 grain hornady hand loads
150 yards
everything in the chest cavity
yes
no
0

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from steve182 wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

Wow, amazing, nobody's deer ran off?
Deer #1, doe, nj, nap nightron 100gr 3 blade on carbon extreme lite hunter @255 fps. 25 yds. pass-thru lungs, 1/4 away, no follow up shot needed. 40 yds.

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from tony167n wrote 2 years 8 weeks ago

1. Minnesota
2. 8 point
3. 200 grain 300 weatherby magnum
4. 167 yards
5. Heart and one lung completely destroyed other lung clipped
6. yes
7. no
8. 40 yards

+1 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 8 weeks ago

Kansas
12 Point
30/06 Winchester 150 gr Baliistic
175 yds
Heart & Lungs MUSH
yes
no
O YARDS

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from Beekeeper wrote 2 years 7 weeks ago

1. Georgia
2. Doe
3. 7mm-08 140 grain Accubond
4. 107 yards
5. neck
6. Yes
7. No
8. 0

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 7 weeks ago

Buck Case History #1 2004

1)WA

2)Buck

3)225 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw .35 Whelen

4)175 yards

5)heart lung jello

6)Yes

7)No

8)0

Buck Case History #2 2005

1)MT

2)Buck

3)225 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw .35 Whelen

4)110 yards

5)heart lung massive damage

6)Yes

7)No

8)0

Buck Case History #3 2007

1)CO

2)Buck

3)165 grain Barnes TSX, .30-06

4)80 yards

5)lungs and clipped spine

6)Yes

7)No

8)0

Sum total of yards last 5 Deer have run after 1st hit = 15 yards.

Sum total of yards last 3 Elk have run after 1st hit = 10 yards.

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from hjohn429 wrote 2 years 7 weeks ago

All central Indiana:
Avg. buck weight (dressed): 190
Avg. doe weight (dressed): 100

1) Neighbor shot 10-point in heart at 40 yards. 12gauge, bang-flop.

2) Neighbor shot buck with bow in the liver, about 25 yards, twang-flop.

3)Dad shot doe in spine with 12gauge, about 8 feet away, bang-flop

4) Dad shot doe in heart with 44mag, 60-70 yards, ran about 100 yards.

5) I shot 10-point buck in heart with 44mag, about 55 yards, ran about 50 yards.

6) Dad shot doe in should/lungs with 44mag, from about 60 yards, bang-flop.

7) I shot doe in heart with 44mag, about 20 yards, ran less than 20 yards.

8) I shot 8-point buck with my bow in trachea (oops.), shot was 27 yards, ran over 200+ yards. Beld out and died.

9) Sister shot doe in heart/lungs/breastbone with 44mag, about 15 yard shot, almost bang-flop

10) Dad shot doe in guts, but also hit liver with 50cal muzzleloader form about 50 yards, ran about 10 yards, jumped into the air, and crashed.

11) Dad shot 5-point buck in lungs with 12gauge, about 70 yards, ran about 20 yards.

12) Dad shot doe in heart with 357mag, about 30 yards away, ran about 10 yards.

13) Friend hit "good buck" in the brisket from about 45 yards with 44mag, ran well over 400 yards, jumped into the river and drouned.

14) Neighbor shot HUNGE 8-pointer in heart with 12gauge from unknown distance, bang-flop.

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from tbogg10 wrote 2 years 7 weeks ago

1)State / Province of kill? OHIO

2)Buck / Doe? BUCK

3)Ammunition used? (be as specific as possible, brand, bullet weight, etc...) .50 CAL MUZZLELOADER 100 GR PYRODEX

4)Approximate range of shot? 56 YARDS

5)Major organs damaged by shot? (again, be as specific as possible) FRONT SHOLDER

6)Was the shot through and through? (yes/no) YES

7)Was a second shot required? (yes/no) NO PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE THOUGH

8)Approximate distance ran by deer after it had been shot? (for bang-flop kills, this is zero) NONE DROPPED AND FLOPPED ON THE GROUND FOR 5 TO 10 MINUTES SHOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT AGAIN

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

from tbogg10 wrote 2 years 7 weeks ago

Just shot another deer this morning so here it is

1)State / Province of kill? OHIO
2)Buck / Doe? DOE
3)Ammunition used? (be as specific as possible, brand, bullet weight, etc...) .50 CAL MUZZLELOADER WITH 100 GR PYRODEX
4)Approximate range of shot? 60 YDS
5)Major organs damaged by shot? (again, be as specific as possible) LUNGS/ KIND OF GUT SHOT, IT WAS QUARTERING TOWARDS ME
6)Was the shot through and through? (yes/no) YES
7)Was a second shot required? (yes/no) NO
8)Approximate distance ran by deer after it had been shot? (for bang-flop kills, this is zero) 70-90 YDS

0 Good Comment? Yes | No | Report

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