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Bourjaily: Why I'm Not Buying a Black Rifle

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February 17, 2009

Bourjaily: Why I'm Not Buying a Black Rifle

By Phil Bourjaily

Black rifles are selling faster than manufacturers can put them together right now. Partly out of fear of possible new gun laws, and partly just because, everybody is buying them –  everybody but me and my friend Tommy Akin, a gentleman and duck hunter from Tennessee.

“The day I turned mine in I swore I’d never shoot one again,” says Tommy, who served as a forward observer in Vietnam.

Me, I can’t afford to feed a black rifle. They go through ammo the way the furnace in our drafty old farmhouse burned propane. As the gun manager at one local store told me: “People come in here and buy a new AR and one 20 round box of ammunition. I tell them, that box will last you two minutes. Buy more.”

Last weekend, because the weather warmed up a little and my friend Nathan had recently bought a S&W AR carbine, my son John and I met him at the range. I brought 100 rounds of ammo, Nathan had 50. We punched paper, broke a spinner target, then we made little snowmen and shot them. It took us an hour to go through all our ammo.

Shooting a black rifle is like eating Lays potato chips; you can’t stop. They are fun, accurate, don’t kick, and before you know it, you’ve sent $100 worth of ammunition downrange with a few twitches of your trigger finger. And that is why I’m not buying one.

On a side note, snowmen are the greatest reactive targets ever. Snow is a free, endlessly reusable, biodegradable, environmentally friendly target medium.  And, snowmen blow up beautifully when you shoot them.

*            *           *

I watched “Appaloosa” last night, which was pretty good. One of my favorite actors, Ed Harris, stars as Marshall Virgil Cole, and Viggo Mortensen plays Everett Hitch, Cole’s 8-gauge toting sidekick. Based on a novel by Robert B. Parker of Spenser fame, “Appaloosa” is full of great, pithy dialogue.

At one point a brief gunfight leaves four bad guys dead and Cole and Hitch on their backs, bleeding in the dust.

Hitch: “That didn’t last long.”
Cole (weakly): “Everybody could shoot.”

Comments (91)

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from Douglas wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

The closest I can come to a black rifle is Swedish light infantry rifle, M38, in 6.5x55 cal.
I can burn up lots of rounds in no time just because its such a pleasure to shoot.

Any place someone can get one of those 8 gauge rabbit ear shotguns? That shotgun looked like it had pretty long barrels too. Great movie without the spaghetti western soundtrack!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Dave,

What you said about ammo was obvious to me years ago. I see guys shoot black rifles at my local range and wonder how they pay for all that ammo. I don't even own one of the cheap Surplus Garands the CMF sells. Could have bought one when they were only about a hundred bucks. Like your freind I carried one as a ground pounder in RVN and don't want another. Give me a Bolt gun or Single shot with nice wood anyday.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Oh, and years ago I bought an old 10 guage with rabbit ear hammers for 125 bucks. It was IMS a Westly Richards with Damascus barrels. Taded it off years ago 'cause of the danger thing with smokeless ammo.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Say hello to the 10/.22. You can keep pace with John Hero Blackrifle and spend less than the cost of a good steak at The Big Texan.

+12 Good Comment? | | Report
from silsbyj wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

They definatly loose their appeal when you have one strapped to you for a year or more. Thank God the Army paid for my ammo in Iraq...I dont think I would have made any money while I was there if they hadnt.

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

And, like my old HK91, the fluted chamber makes it impossible to reload. I bought surplus FN Berdan stuff. I am now strictly bolt action.

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Pardon me for being behind the times, but do I read that "black rifle" is the current nom-de-jour for military and/or knock-off weapons?

For a second, I thought it was about my Remington 700 synthetic.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I had the same sentiments about M-16's too. I didn't like them for a long time after I had to carry one, but 38 years down the road it seemed like a good idea at the time. If the times require it, not a bad piece in a fire fight. I believe I could still hold my own with the Bushmaster! Or snipe with my Weatherby!

Peace through superior firepower.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I watched 'Appaloosa' the other night too. Not a bad flick, but I never could figure out the deal with the woman. Old "Virgil" must have been hard up or soft in the head.

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Man now I have to see the movie... that line is a direct quote from the book where they get in a gunfight with two brothers and the bad guy/coward that has kidnapped Cole's girlfriend. The book is an allegory really about how women control the world not men and the wild Mustangs they love to watch react to women in much the same way.

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from senkoman12 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

thats why i have i love them especailly my replica hawkens rifle

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from Mark-1 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

“Appaloosa” will go down as a cult classic western. It’s a low budget flick, but great film making, writing, and acting. Five stars!!!!!!

I’ve seen two 8-ga shotguns, both doubles with rabbit ear hammers. One was in Europe where the gauge is still legal and then another that was an heirloom an old boy from Long Island had. His father was a Long Island market hunter providing NYC restaurants with waterfowl a 100-years ago.

“Appaloosa” also had my attention brought to Hitch’s belt wallet holding all brass shotgun shells. I recall my great grandfather loading those all brass shotgun shells for 10-ga by hand. He would put some kind of clear liquid on top for a top wad.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I find it far more interesting to shoot a few rounds into a nice tight group than 400 rounds into one hole the size of a coffee cup. I agree with Mike that "blasting" with a .22 is as much fun and a whole lot cheaper!

Cole's line says a lot and has to be one of the best ever uttered in a western.

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I'm not buying one because three months ago my R-15 was $850 and at the gun show this weekend they are $1299... I'm thinking the bottom will fall out in a year when Obama does nothing against the 2nd and everyone is completely broke. I was listening to a salesman telling a guy when the $#it does hit the fan he will be able to trade a Glock 19 for a pick up truck.

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from MLH wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I learned my lesson - figured I'd let my nephew shoot my Bushmaster while I sighted in a new scope on another rifle. He went through 100 rounds before the first target check. The next trip I took along my muzzleloader.

Sold that rifle. I want another one, but with a target barrel this time. A Les Baer would be nice, if I can come up with the bucks.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

It must be true that people are on a buying spree since Democrats are in. Son and I went to three shops looking for deals and there was nothing but crap left in the display case. Man said for example a Sig SAS is backordered three months. Still haven't seen a Ruger LCP in person and the Kel-Tec 380 has disappeared from the shelves.

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from jjas wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

It's not just ARs (which I don't want, can't afford to feed and have no feasible use for)and high cap pistols that are in short supply. I heard that Mossberg is behind over 100,000 units @ this time.

I spend my range time with a semi-auto .22 pistol and a .22 bolt action rifle. It's funny how lead prices are @ the same level they were 5 years ago, yet the prices for ammo are still skyhigh.

Jim

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from Bella wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Amen to that. I too own a 10-22 and find it more than adequate for plinking. I too had enough of "Black rifles" while wearing a green suit. If I'd wanted one I coulda had one, 'cause I know somebody with a closet dust collecter I coulda had for asking. Don't like the dang things though so no.

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from Bernie wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I carried an M-16 in the Marine Corps 40 years ago and never developed any affection for "black rifles." The last time I fired one was in 1993 when I showed some game wardens the "quick kill" technique taught to us in Marine Recon.

I have a couple semi-auto .22 rimfires, but all my centerfire rifles are bolt-actions.

Each to his/her own...

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from Carney wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Looks like this would be a good time to apply for a job at Mossberg!

I've never cared one way or another for Black Rifles. Sticker price concerns me -- plus they don't have any lever models;-)

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Walt Smith wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

AR's are cool and all but why buy a rifle that just invites the ATF to your front door? Besides there's nothing they can do that my 30-06 can't.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from TommyNash wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

A nice walnut stock can take care of the ATF jackboots just as nice. If you have any cash, check out the sniper rifles Roniie Barrett makes in Murfreesboro, TN. The way this socialism/nationalization crap is ramping up, just happy there is still a market for this black stuff where supply can meet demand.

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from buckhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Black rifles are the soup de jour. It'll be something else next week, month or year.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I like the Black Rifle/AR design before I carried one on duty. The design, and color, Remington is doing to "creatively civilize" this type of gun is a great way to keep it in the market; face it the gun sells!
Now, for me, I would look into one of the stubby little calibers they have designed for it giving it a better hunting application then the standard .223 bullet. Overall, cost would not be a factor in ammo since I "feed" a family of different guns at the moment, and shooting it more often would at least make one more proficient(hopefully)by design.
Bottom line; It's a magazine fed semi-automatic weapon that's looks more deadly then a 10/22, but other then caliber and stock color there ain't no difference in the business end of the barrel.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

My take varies little from everyone else. I knew this rifle well enough to recognize its virtues and failings long ago and far away. About ten years ago I noticed that Black Rifles suddenly had good triggers and tight grouping barrels and receivers. After deliberation I elected not to buy one although I love one version of DPMS flat top with heavy barrel. The kid was shooting his customized 10/22 at that time vigorously attempting to melt down the barrel while actually hitting his targets rather than seeing how fast he could miss. Later he joined me with the bolt action center fire varmint rifles. Any consideration of obtaining a Black Rifle left me due to the cost of feeding it since the bolt guns seemingly consume ammo faster than we can reload the brass. Still maybe one day...

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from freeparking wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

The thing is, people realize it may be now or never when it comes down to owning an evil black rifle. We've already seen unprecedented legislation wrt 'stimulus' so in this brave new world who knows what might spin through congress next.
However I agree, try to wear yourself out with rimfire first or you'll go broke.

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from kolbster wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

i love the ar 15, i have shot many, and would like to buy one but the cost are to high.

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from kolbster wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

the last that i heard from Glock, they were behind 160,000 on the Glock 17 9mm alone, thats not counting all the other models.

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from vtbluegrass wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Even before the gun salesman of the year was elected president the black rifle was on the rise as you may remember. I already own one by way of parts kit for $550 before everyone went crazy. Feeding the beast was horrible until I discovered reloading. I continually threaten to sell it because it serves no purpose other than lead dispenser in my collection but some days its nice when I am lacking the will and focus to be calm at the benchrest.
If push came to shove though I am with Carney and lever guns. I truly am a 336 man though I may stray to more accurate bolt guns and flashing semi-autos from time to time.

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from Shaky wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Bella; I located another mod.24 in .222/20ga. and paid the same for it that I had sold that first one for. This one, with a scope mounted, consistently shoots an 8"group at 100yds, and I can't believe I sold that other one because it would not group under 2". I tried 4 different scopes and 11 load combinations, with no marked improvement in accuracy. So today I removed the scope and shot with the iron sights. The first three went into 2.25" at 100yds.,I thought, that's impossible,I can barely see the target. Next 5 shots,(different target), measures 1.70". So Do you know of anyone who makes a peep sight for the mod 24. My worn eye isn't able to focus on all three of those objects at once.

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from dwaynez wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I am staying away from them.

The appaloosa movie is worth the watch,

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

-
Bernie,

I never was in the service so your reference to the “quick kill” technique taught to you in Marine Recon is lost on me. - What do you mean?

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from blueridge wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I am reminded of Robert Lee Frost's take on fences...'before I built a fence, I'd like to know what I am walling in or walling out.'

Black Rifles are just...rifles. I have one, because I can, and because there are elements in our grand country that do not want me to have one. It has a horrendous trigger, and bears the Colt brand. It lacks wood, and caliber---both of whom I desire plenty of. I never shot up the range with it, because I can do all I want with less ammo...raised with a very conservative, Dad about such things. In fact, I shoot flintlock rifles and .45 LC in rifle and pistol more than the AR15.

We are all shooters...and we need to be tolerant about the other guy's pet choices, even if he is all wet..smiling here.

On this general subject...I was sorry to see Jim Zumbo castigated because he has a quite natural aversion to them in the hunting fields. Jim gave more to us than he took, and I would be proud to ride with him...or even Petzel, the old curmudgeon. But...our curmudgeon, and he smells of gunpowder.

blueridge

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from duff wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I think Mike Diehl was first to bring up the 10/22, and that's all the speed plinking I need. I too used to carry an M16, and have no love or hate for it...just don't want one or need it now. The boys enjoy the 10/22 and several semi 22 pistols, but they've matured to the level of enjoying one by one precision shooting with varmint calibers and 7.62. I guess I kind of like having fun being able to shoot pistols at a range, and later in the same day go and find humiliation on the trap/skeet range or bird hunting. The variety makes it, and if we do find a hankerin' for full auto, there's friends I can visit.
Hey any of you guys go through life completely missing something and one day wake up and find it's widely popular? What is this movie Apaloosa?
Thanks!

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from Scott Jones wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I bought a black rifle this year after putting it off for about twenty years because I couldn't afford it. (Caught it right before they zoomed out of reason) I always liked the platform but still am not crazy about the caliber. It is fun to shoot. The .223 of today is not the .223 of twenty years ago. It's still too small for serious work but adequate for coyotes, etc. Amen to the best guns salesman comment above. Nothing makes me "need" something more than being told I don't need it. Too many Clinton types in power for me to feel comfortable with Obama's lack of accomplishment.

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from tom warner wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I must admit that I was rather disappointed in Apaloosa. That's probably because I had read the book, which was MUCH, MUCH better than the film. There are a few scenes in he movie which simply make no sense, including the gunfight you mention. The director screwed this one up - but I did enjoy it nevertheless. Tom

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from Shootstir wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Black rifles, like other weapons, have their uses. Just because some folks are scared of them as opposed to a Bowie knife makes about as much sense of people afraid of dying by way of an SUV as opposed to a VW Beetle. Both will get you injured or killed- the "vehicle" is of no importance.

I've always had a hankering for a "black" rifle, so I bought a used Mauser and restocked it with a black synthetic stock from Ramline. It shoots as accurately as anything bought off the shelf and serves my purposes well. I've bagged a dozen deer with a single shot over the last 9 hunting seasons. Sure, I have to pull the trigger for each shot, and I'm saving money on ammo, but I would still like to upgrade to a semi-auto that easily allows for multiple moving targets in the field. It's simply a different design and function that renders different results in the hands of capable shooters.

Like someone said earlier, we all have our likes and dislikes. When one "party" attacks a single type of shooting weapon, it is definitely a time for pause- cause once they get a ban on one, the rest can easily fall like dominos. Just ask Great Britain or the Aussies. (And yes, the people there are VERY much regretting that mistake...)

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from bonedoc33 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I own two Bushmasters, one tactical and one with a target barrel. However, I tend to have more fun with my Barrett at 1200 yards. Only bad thing is that at $5.00 a round, you don't shoot much.

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from okduckhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Thankfully I bought my SKS and mini-14 when they were affordable and built up a nice supply of 1000 rounds for each caliber "just in case." I used to run through the rounds at the range, until the price of ammo skyrocketed. Now I'm hesitant to shoot them because of the shortage of replacement ammo. The ammo issue used to be price; now it seems to be scarcity. The shelves are bare EVERYWHERE in Oklahoma. I would think ammo manufacturers would be working overtime to meet the demand, but it appears they are not, which seems to be driving the price up when I can find some ammo at a gun show. Anybody know what gives? Is all the ammo in caches at people's homes?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Speaking of movies, what movie was ever as good or better than the book?

I watched Jim Zumbo's show last night on Outdoor Channel on a goose hunt. I'm glad to see Jim back in the saddle. I think it was a crying shame the looneys attacked him for his ill fated comment on black rifles and hunting. Shame on the sponsors that dumped him, too. While he is not a close friend, I have talked to him on many occasions over the years at various events. He is a fine fellow and I'm sure meant no harm in his comment. We should only be so aggressive when it comes to politicians and their mis-speaks!

I don't see a real place in hunting for AR types either. But that's just my opinion. I think that everyone should get a piece of the Stimulus Package and buy one! Or two. They'll get mine when they pry it from my cold fingers. Might need it to ward off the hundred of thousands of Hamas refugees that Obama ordered accomodated in the U.S. this week.

WMH

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Okduckhunter

Good question. Shelves are bare in Washington state, too. Powder, bullets, and primers are in short supply. Even steel shot is scarce.

What IS going on?

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from philbourjaily wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter -- You are right that the book is almost always better than the movie. with a few exceptions:
"Das Boot" -- especially the full length version -- is both the greatest submarine movie of all time and an excellent novel.
The movie version of "The Maltese Falcon" may be better than the book.
The movie "Jaws" is way better than the book, although I noticed upon seeing the movie again recently that it has not aged well.
"The Right Stuff" is equally great in its book and movie forms.
There may be a few others.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Phil

I agree wholeheartedly that "Das Boot" is the greatest submarine movie of all time. I have seen every version (I think) including the full length version in German without subtitles. It is also a great anti-war commentary. I thought "Jaws" was and still is stupid and never read the book. "The Right Stuff" is really great about a great American!

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Yeah what is going on... at the gusnshow I attended last weekend American Eagle brand 30-06 FMJ $19.95. Didn't they used to run $5.95? A brick of .22's is $20- and you could buy them all day for $9.00 just a while ago.

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from Bella wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Hey there Shakey, I was interested to hear of your .222/20 Savage. My .22/.410 wouldn't shoot accurately with glass sights either. I tried 2 different red dot sights and 2 different scopes. I went back to the rather crude looking iron sights(with which it is a tack driver). An issue always was that the scope mountings are just grooves in the upper barrel and don't give proper support to the scope mounting, so if you fire the shotgun barrel if throws the mount off. However,If I wanna shoot a scoped .22 I have my laminated thumbhole stocked 10-22 with a 3x to 9x optic. I've got a button rifled Green Mountain target barrel for it on the way, a plinkers delight.
If one wants to feed ones desire for a scary looking tactical style "black rifle" they make so many stock options for the 10-22 you can make it look like anything. I thought the bullpup stock was a slick design (if ugly), then there is the MG42 conversion in Sportsmans Guide. The notion that one can convert ones .22lr plinker to look like a WWII Nazi machine gun kinda seems surreal to me. Why? Reenacting the battle for Anzio in suburban New Jersy? Impressing (stupid) Skinheads? Putting realistic accoutrements on you volkswagon Thing so It looks like an Afrika Corps kubelvagon? (A boyfriend had one, claimed it was a "chick magnet", though I didn't just like him for his car...) Whatever...Long Live Sturm Ruger Inc.

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

That's funny, I read Jaws before the movie and had envisioned a much scarier version. Still think the book is always better because your imagination is always better...

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Yeah my fun gun is my Ruger 10/22 too but I also have a MkII pistol and M1 carbine for the range and all are a blast! Bella tell how you like your Green Mountain barrel. My .920 target barrel has seen tens of thousands of rounds and just ain't what it used to be. I've been thinking about the Green Mountain they sure work on my Knight.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

while in the service in the early 60's, I carried the M1 carbine, such a waste. then latter carried the M-16 A1. Not much better. latter getting the M-16A2, a dream to shoot and very accurate.While being the Battalion Marksmanship coordinator, I took many troops to Ft. Knox to try for the State Rifle team. M-16,M-60 and the Beretta 9MM. Our state team a couple years ago won several matches with as issued M-16A2 heavy barrel, while out shooting the M-16A4 with optical sights. I personally like the single shot concept myself, shoot longer, have fun, but a lot less expensive. I also enjoy reloading. wouldn't want to reload for a black rifle.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

What's going on is a run on ammo and firearms. Here's an interesting thought. In an America who, by the headlines, is full of people who never saved money and were tempted by loans with unrealistic repayment conditions and awful interest rates, the people who saved money for contingencies seem to be firearms enthusiasts.

It's one of those things that make you wonder. Are firearms owners a little more sensible than, say, the stereotypical American in the headlines?

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

What's going on is a run on ammo and firearms. Here's an interesting thought. In an America who, by the headlines, is full of people who never saved money and were tempted by loans with unrealistic repayment conditions and awful interest rates, the people who saved money for contingencies seem to be firearms enthusiasts.

It's one of those things that make you wonder. Are firearms owners a little more sensible than, say, the stereotypical American in the headlines?

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from jay wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I was never into black rifles; I always liked the fine walnut and luster of my weatherby rifles but I admire all guns, everything from my colt 1911 to my beretta 90two; from my Xtrema to my Winchester model 12. My wife bought me an AR-15 for Xmas a few years ago. I would have never bought one on my own. I absolutely love shooting this AR-15. I'm not sure why folks think you run thru the ammo like its water? I shoot it mostly from the bench and I don't shoot any more ammo than I would with any bolt rifle or semiauto pistol. Just don't shoot it like Rambo.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

No one'knocking BRs here, Jay, but my experience at the range is that a typical AR operator will in fifteen minutes expend more ammo than the entire 20th Maine Rgt at Gettysburg.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I take my Bushmaster AR to the range to check the zero and plink a few rounds with the scope and with the carry handle peep sight reinstalled and then recheck the zero of the scope. With a 1x-4x Leupold set between 1x and 2x, just enough to get the front sight out of the focal plane, I can shoot with both eyes open at close range and still put rounds into the center ring.

It also gives the big guns a little time to cool off between groups! I never hit my ammo stash to take the AR to the range. I buy what I will shoot. Keeps me from wasting a whole bunch of ammo that is expensive to replace.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I don't know Mike. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlin's boys shot a lot of mini balls at my dad's ancestors. Mom 's family fought for the North. Wasn't that at Little Roundtrop that the 20 Maine made their bones?

Talk about shooting up ammo. I can shoot most of the day with a box of .490 round balls and a pound of Goex 3F Black with my Flintlock Longrifle. More fun than shooring a BR ever was. Try hitting a pie plate at 100 yd offhand with a flinter flashing in your face. Think I might post a pic of it and the Shiloh Sharps. That gun usually draws onlookers.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Dave,

If you haven't seen Jude Law and Rachel Wiesz in Enemy at the Gate get it ASAP. Best war movie you never saw.

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from blueridge wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Del in KS...a big Hoo Rah...for Flintlocks and the Gray...and the big Sharps. Fun guns all...take a boy shooting...take a daughter and your wife, too, with ear protection...the AR works pretty well in the recreation department, by the by.

Remember Phil--there are black shotguns out there too, that many of the seasoned shooters avoid. But--power to them all. Keep 'em warm if not hot.

blueridge

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from Sportsman Matt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I've handled the black rifles, black shotguns, small arms, and found that the only people who want them are people who are afraid that they'll be in a combat situation. Yes they are great in the battlefield, but I wouldn't trust them to defend my home. Biggest thing is the more complex, the easier they break. Also they eat more ammo the less you have to work the action.

I'll never buy a black rifle, or a black shotgun, or a military looking firearm, because I believe in the old addage "One Shot, One Kill" taught to me by my grandfather (WWII Infantry) and my father (USN 1960-1964)
who hunted on a regular basis on the family farm. The oother thing I was taught was how much ammunition cost and how much I could afford to shoot, and not to waste lead on a second shot.

Learning all that and more, I keep my 30-30 ready, with my handloading equipment and 40 rounds of ammunition, if I go through that much ammunition in a season either I'm in a warzone or definately wasting lead.

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from duckcreekdick wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Phil:
You need an AR-15 and a few extra magazines in case you are attacked by a 200# rogue chimp. Sounds like the policeman's service pistol didn't do the job.
Does anyone besides me remember the original "Appaloosa" with Marlon Brando and Robert Saxon?
A darn good film.

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from duckcreekdick wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Correction:
It is John Saxon, not Robert. Also Anjanette Comer was in the film, as well as an unnamed but fine-looking Appaloosa stud horse.

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from chuckles wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

If you bought a black rifle 'cause you think President Obama is going to take them or restrict them then you are living in fear. Relax. The Supreme Court already upheld the Second Amendment so no one is coming to get your guns. Gun owners and hunters need to focus on presenting a positive image to non-hunters and people with mixed feelings. Many of these people are from urban areas where guns are used to kill people and this tends to color their opinions on the issue. The antis will never listen to us regardless of the issue. There are a lot of people who don't care either way but think it is silly to want to shoot at animals with the assault weapons they see military/police personnel or "terrorists" carrying. I think Jim Zumbo was right and it was a damned shame the way his First Amendment rights were trampled when he had the courage to express his opinion. So protect your rights by being a responsible gun owner and sportsman while respecting the opinions of others and be willing to engage people in debate about the issues without using the phrase "cold dead fingers". Recognize that people whose sole experience with firearms may be drive-by shootings or domestic violence will need extra convincing and we will all get to keep shooting all the fun guns we want. I personally don't want to carry a box of ammo when I go hunting so I learned to shoot straight and practice often. Keep the black rifles and enjoy them, they are fun, but recognize that public opinion will be the greatest determiner of the future of our sports so tread lightly.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Del in KS, Enemy at the Gates was based on the book War of the Rats. If you can find a copy you will enjoy it. I would send you mine but someone borrowed it several years ago and you know the rest of that story.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Del in KS, Enemy at the Gates was based on the book War of the Rats. If you can find a copy you will enjoy it. I would send you mine but someone borrowed it several years ago and you know the rest of that story.

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from greyhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

If I could afford one (AR or similiar) I would. To keep my Ak and Mini 14 company. No one says you have to unload a 30 rd clip. Almost forgot,I like my Marlin model 60 too. Wish we could hunt coyotes in Pa. with a semi like some states out west. For slow deliberate fire I prefer my flintlocks, but I'm glad I can still own my semis. Also think Jim Zumbo deserved his hiatus, he threw a lot of lawful gun owners under the bus. jmpov

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from idduckhntr wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter is right about the ammo. I used to go to Wally world at the end of duck season and buy a case of ssteel shot for $7.00 a box, now you can hardly go in there and find a box of 22 shells as far as reloading stuff aare SW (big chain store is bare) they are allways bare cant even get 243 bullets to reload.Thank God for mom and pop shops around here and the 300 rounds of stuff I have loaded just for my heavy barreld 700 308. One shot one kill.

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from elmer f. wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

well, i have been thinking about a black rifle on and off for about five years now. i never could afford one, but now, i have enough cash in hand. the problem is, that once i do buy one, then i am faced with the costs of shooting such a beast. i am certain that i would shoot the heck out of it. i do everything else i own. but, with most of my centerfire rifles, a box, or maybe two will make your shoulder sore enough to quit. a ar15, is like a 22 rimfire, you shoot until you run out of ammo (or the barrel starts to melt, lol). only a 22 rimfire is about 1/3rd the cost. so, the last few weeks, i have been contemplating between a 44 magnum revolver, or a ar15. the revolver makes more sense, but my heart desires an ar. i really hate decisions that have to be made because of a lack of money!

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from Jim Blum wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I was thinking of getting a black rifle last aug. when they were around 750.00 now they are over 1500.00.. So I got a tapco stock for my mini 14 it still throws the same 223 down range... So Iam happy.. I also have a 10 ga. that I bought back in 1979 new it is a H&R modle 110
I love it for turkeys.. My 10/22 is great but I hate reloading the 50 round clip wich I bought through Cabelas And it does work <--I was lucky this time.. See ya Later Jim

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from KMB33 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I am fourteen and do not own a black rifle, and in the fear of sounding clueless, don't even know exactly what one is. Although after seeinf the Remington R7 they sure look fun!!!

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from KMB33 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I am fourteen and do not own a black rifle, and in the fear of sounding clueless, don't even know exactly what one is. Although after seeinf the Remington R7 they sure look fun!!!

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from ke6n wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Used to own an AR and loved it. But of course, I live in "Kalifornia" and didn't want to be bothered with the registration and restrictions that were imposed on the "nasty black guns" so I let someone else deal with it all and made a healthy profit. Used to reload for it AND shot it slow and easy so the ammo would last a while. The accuracy was really amazing for the kind of gun it was.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Chuckles

Your post is a grand mixture of truth and delusion. The Obama administration only needs to put 2 justices on the Supreme Court to trample our rights. My 2nd Amendment rights have nothing to do with hunting and sport. It is my right to bear arms to protect myself from whatever shows up, be that thugs or the government. The rest of your post is good common sense.

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from Scott Kittinger wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Had one, traded it. Had another, traded it. I ended up resting on another rifle that starts with an A.

Now my mood swings toward well-made side by sides.

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from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

My T/O weapon was an M14 rifle, and I trusted it implicitly. While in Chu Lai (RVN) in late 1966, I was informed we'd have to turn in our M14s for M16s, and had the opportunity to fam-fire (fire for familiarization) the M16. I was unimpressed, and commented, "This toy is a Communist plot to undermine the effectiveness of the U.S. Marine Corps!"
Admittedly, I lacked objectivity. I'd qualified expert with the M14 repeatedly, trained with the M1 Garand earlier, and this .22 centerfire seemed no match for the thirty caliber rifles I'd learned to trust. In candor, it didn't seem to compare well against some of the rifles with which the opposition was equipped. My tour of duty ended before my unit received its M16s and I was thankful for that.
In time, as a reservist, I was issued other M16 variants (M16A1, and the M16A2), and I came to better appreciate (but never to prefer) the little rifle. I understand the M16 and its offspring have been the T/O weapon for 40+ years, and many of today's shooters have cut their teeth on it. To me, the .223/5.56mm has always been a varmint round and nothing less than 6.5mm should be considered for combat. I respect the opinion and experience of those who disagree; since my opinions and experiences do not affect them, let us simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Over time, I've seen the proliferation of AR variants in shops and on the cover of many shooting sports magazines. A great many accessories are offered for the black (or cammy, or whatever) rifle, and that's a fine marketing opportunity, but I have not purchased one and, despite a vacancy or two, I really don't see room for one in my safe. I see interesting and intelligent design effort, but little or no craftsmanship in these rifles. Personally, I prefer wood and steel for my own battery.
There is something for everyone, and I treasure the freedom to purchase what interests us. I am not disappointed by the AR's popularity, but I confess that I'm a bit bewildered by it.

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from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

To each his own. I never had a use for a AK rifle. If I want to just plink my 22's will do fine. My serious hunting guns,, once zeroed tomy distsance I nevr fire again till get to hunt site. In between,for praatice i use either a 22Auto or a 22mag bolt, or one of the 4 single shot 22's i own mfgered by Daisy. With Ammo for hunting near $50 a box, few shots needed to re-check zero, and the pratice you get from the 22 bolt is ample to keep you in shape and ability to make that critical shot when it presents itself.Just be glad when weather improves so canenjoy being out side. Now so cold can;t get comfortable and removed all my heated ground blinds till next fall.

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from buckslayer7893 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Yep i know what you mean Phil. I went through a 30 round clip in apout 25 seconds once so at the time that was like 27 dollars for 25 seconds of shooting

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

EJ Palumbo

Thank you for your service to our great nation, sir. I personally salute you.

Best regards,
WMH

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from buckstopper wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Try using a single round clip, like that used for high-power competition to not be tempted to burn ammo unnecessarily. Reload your own ammo saves cost also, although you need to invest in the right equipment. I would recommend using new unprimed brass, as reloading military ammo can be tricky to get the primer cups swagged or reamed correctly. I got in to a club that holds High-Power 100yd reduced course matches and got a Garand through them. I liked shooting it but decided to upgrade to a AR National Match because it is easer on my shoulder and ammo is cheaper than 30-06.

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from Kris wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

I agree, however I'd not turn down a gift. i figure I can do a lot with what is here if the bad guys come rushing my hilltop abode.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

For lack of much else to do on a snowy Wyoming night I watched Appaloosa again last evening. When the kid came in from dinner with his sweetie we both watched it again. Although it is far from my favorite western I cannot fault the authenticity. Everything from weapons, gun leather and the way it was worn, clothing and hats, buildings, tack, platted rope, how the horses handled and reacted, the way the gunmen unholstered their revolvers prior to the moment of need and the rapid reloading after firing all proved to be very realistic. Ed Harris in the documentary portion stated that the 8 gauge was actually a ten with sleeves placed on it to yield the appearance of the larger gun. Great movie.

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from Sherrill Philip... wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Several of my friends have black guns and really enjoy them. Heck, they get really excited about them and want to show them off to everybody and anybody. I am happy for them, but, for me, after almost 22 years in the Marine Corps, it's kind of like a carpenter getting excited about someone getting a new nail gun. "Oh, ok, well that's nice."

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from chuckles wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter
Thank you for your response. I probably shouldn't have started off with such a declarative statement. The Supreme Court has definitely been known to reverse previous positions and change the rights of all Americans in doing so. I have lived on both sides of the issue. As a young man I lived in an urban area where my only experience with guns was when they were used to rob me and I have lost several friends to gun violence. In my twenties I lived out West where I was introduced to the pleasure of hunting and began to purchase and use firearms for sport and hunting. So my question to you and other participants is this. Is it possible to differentiate between firearms that are suitable for hunting and recreation/sport versus those which are better suited to killing people? Should we even try? A lot of the informed commentary I read in mags like Guns&Ammo lean towards shotguns for personal/home defense. Many of the statistics you see re handguns indicate that people are more likely to be shot or shoot family members than successfully defend themselves with a handgun. I know statistics are routinely manipulated to reinforce opposing sides of any argument. I am not coming down on either side of the issue but I do think it is important that gun owners who want to protect their rights discuss these issues. It is clear from some of the posts that some of the people who have risked their lives to defend all of our freedoms would prefer to hunt with firearms that reflect a dedication to quality and aesthetics rather than magazine capacity. With the tens of millions of gun owners in America (voters) not to mention the power of the corporations who manufacture guns, ammo and related gear I question if our gun rights are in as much danger as lots of people would have us believe. I also sincerely believe that we need to debate whether any gun, anywhere, anytime is a position that only adds strength to our enemies. I look forward to further discussion with you or anyone else who is interested, all 80 million or so. Until next time, good shooting!

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from JohnR wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Mr. Palumbo we must be what is called comtemporaries. My favorite rifle in the world was the M-14 I was issued in the Marine Corps and to a 17 year old kid who grew up hunting, it seemed to be the best rifle in the world. I have a couple of its civilian brothers, and an AR too, but its the 7.62 X 51mm that I love the most. Don't get me wrong I really enjoy my Bushmaster and it is a tack driver. I do have fun though with my National Match at the range printing tighter groups with iron sights than many of them do with their favorite scoped bolt rifle.
Chuckles I do appreciate your candor however I do not differentiate between military rifles and bolt action "sport" rifles for hunting since I use my military rifles to hunt with. I have lower capacity magazines for all of them and those are the ones I hunt with. I have had a few people politely question my ethics at first glance at my military rifles, but when I show them a 5 round magazine and they see that I don't use a scope a light goes on and suddenly I'm a minimalist. You said it correctly with "to each his own". I am no way an apologist for black or any other military style rifles. Many of those that shoot fancy and elegant bolt guns know that the grandfather of the bolt rifle is the military Mauser K-98 whose action has itself spawned many elegant and wonderful hunting rifles. The bottom line is that we all love shooting in one form or another and we have to stick together to support the Second Amendment and in so doing support each other.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

My Army career was from 1970-1990 and never did use the M-14 for anything but to shoot blanks a couple times. However, during the 6 weeks in 1975 spent training with the Aussies (in the outback of Queensland) the opportunity came to shoot their qualification course with one of their rifles. It was IMS a British SLR in 7.62 Nato. That was an impressive rifle. Using an unfamiliar gun and with no practice shots I missed the first 3 shots then knocked down 37 straight man sized pop up targets from 50 out to 300 yds.
I was ready to trade my M-16 for one right then and there.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, better keep the Glock, won't be any gas(Except from the cows) to run the truck..

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from sarg wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, better keep the Glock, won't be any gas(Except from the cows) to run the truck..

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from Frankie wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Phil,

Please don't perpetuate the myth that all these guns are good for is launching lead downrange. It re-enforces the contention of our opponents that "black rifles"* are practically machine guns. There's no reason to have a higher rate of fire with an AR-15 than you'd have with your A-Bolt.

Hate to say it, but this "Fudd" mentality is the cause of the greatest schism within the gun owning community. Older shooters like you have deliberately separated yourselves from the younger shooters. The very same shooters the NRA encourages you to bring into the sport.

Go lurk for a while on "The Firing Range" on the Something Awful forums to get some perspective: http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=132 Believe it or not there are young people who love shooting, are adamant about CCW rights for law abiding citizens, have a respect for historical arms and even hunt too. They also have a wicked sense of humor so be prepared.

*(another ridiculous term they're using)

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Yesterday I stopped to fill my diesel pickup. A friend pulled up at the gas pump and quickly emerged from his pickup. In his hand was a "black rifle" that he had more or less built himself. He went through what had been done to it, how it was accomplished, and described the accuracy of the piece. I opened the action, checked the trigger, and went through the usual motions we all do when examining a new rifle. Since Carl was so happy with his rifle I merely smiled and nodded in agreement. I had rather been checking out a heavy barrel .22-.250 bolt rifle but for Carl the black rifle was the exactly what he wanted. This represents a significant degree of freedom in that if we don't want a black rifle we allow others to enjoy them for the toys that they are.
By the way I want to express my thanks to CPT BRAD for the impressive accomplishments and time spent defending our nation in recent years. Even though I don't know you I can tell that your heart is right and that you are the kind of man that really makes America free. God bless you sir.

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from mikemontague wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

* 1994 to 2001 - Obama was on the board of the anti-gun Joyce Foundation. This foundation is the largest funding source for radical anti-gun groups in the country.
* 1996 - Obama supported a ban on the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.
* 1999 - Obama proposed a 500 percent increase in the excise taxes on firearms and ammunition. This tax would effectively punish gun owners for buying guns and ammunition.
* 2003 - Obama voted in support of legislation that would have banned privately owned hunting shotguns, target rifles and black powder rifles in Illinois.
* 2004 - Obama voted against legislation intended to protect homeowners from prosecution in cases where they used a firearm to halt a home invasion.

I am not interested in a "black rifle" either. But let us not lose sight of the above information folks.

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from philbourjaily wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Frankie -- I've got two younger shooters in my family -- one 15 and one 19 -- so I've got a pretty idea what the next generation of shooters is about. Like them, I think AR rifles are pretty cool. Since there's nothing in my home state to hunt with a centerfire, the only reason for me to own one would be as a plinking/target rifle, and I'm tempted, but I'll stick with my .22s for reasons of economy. Does that make me a Fudd?

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from chuckles wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

mikemontague
I did some research about the facts in your post and was wondering if you would be interested in following up for yourself before making up your mind re Pres. Obama's stance on guns. I went to the Wikipedia entry for the Joyce Foundation which has some good info on how and why they spend their money. They definitely fund some groups with clear antigun agendas (and some who defend the 2nd Amend.) but their website details how and why they do so. It is not as clear cut as the NRA makes it sound. Another good resource I found was FactCheck.org. If you type a search for "2004 obama firearms" and then go to the section about the NRA they discuss almost all the points outlined in your post. It was interesting reading. It may not change your opinion but it definitely presents a different view from the NRA fact sheets many of us received during the election. Let me know what you think if you are so inclined.
My take is that Pres. Obama seems to feel, as do many gun owners and sportsmen, that we have to try and find a balance between the right to bear arms and the fact that firearms are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths every year. His experiences in Chicago and my own in the urban area where I grew up tend to make me agree with him but I am trying to keep and open mind. Informed debate, grounded in facts, only makes it more likely we will be able to protect the rights we all cherish.
Respectfully,
chuckles

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from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 5 years 6 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter,
Thank you for your comment, but I was just a mischievous 19-20 year old kid with a sense of humor. It was my privilege to work with a remarkable group of people, and I've remained in contact with several of them. We remain like brothers and, on those occasions a few of us get together, we become 20 yr-old kids again.

JohnR,
The M14 served its purpose well, and it really did seem inconceivable that it would be replaced by something arguably "better". I developed a better understanding of the saltier troops who felt the Springfield or Garand was the best rifle issued. They relied on them in previous wars and trusted their ability with those rifles completely. I have no argument with those who feel the same way about the M16 variants that followed; they obviously had the time and reasons to trust their rifles. I remain impressed with the performance of American military personnel with whatever weapons they're issued. There appears to be no generation gap there!
Best wishes, gentlemen. I enjoy reading your opinions and learning from your perspectives and experiences.
Ed

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from dogbreeds wrote 3 years 11 weeks ago

Try utilizing a single round clip, like this used for high-power competition never to be tempted to be able to burn ammo unnecessarily. Reload your special ammo saves expense also, although you'll want to invest in the correct equipment.

By the way I would like to express my as a consequence of CPT BRAD for any impressive accomplishments in addition to time spent protecting our nation lately. blue heeler puppies Even though I do not know you I can tell that heart is right and you're the kind of man that basically makes America cost-free. God bless a person sir.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Say hello to the 10/.22. You can keep pace with John Hero Blackrifle and spend less than the cost of a good steak at The Big Texan.

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from Beekeeper wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I find it far more interesting to shoot a few rounds into a nice tight group than 400 rounds into one hole the size of a coffee cup. I agree with Mike that "blasting" with a .22 is as much fun and a whole lot cheaper!

Cole's line says a lot and has to be one of the best ever uttered in a western.

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from TommyNash wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

A nice walnut stock can take care of the ATF jackboots just as nice. If you have any cash, check out the sniper rifles Roniie Barrett makes in Murfreesboro, TN. The way this socialism/nationalization crap is ramping up, just happy there is still a market for this black stuff where supply can meet demand.

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from Shootstir wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Black rifles, like other weapons, have their uses. Just because some folks are scared of them as opposed to a Bowie knife makes about as much sense of people afraid of dying by way of an SUV as opposed to a VW Beetle. Both will get you injured or killed- the "vehicle" is of no importance.

I've always had a hankering for a "black" rifle, so I bought a used Mauser and restocked it with a black synthetic stock from Ramline. It shoots as accurately as anything bought off the shelf and serves my purposes well. I've bagged a dozen deer with a single shot over the last 9 hunting seasons. Sure, I have to pull the trigger for each shot, and I'm saving money on ammo, but I would still like to upgrade to a semi-auto that easily allows for multiple moving targets in the field. It's simply a different design and function that renders different results in the hands of capable shooters.

Like someone said earlier, we all have our likes and dislikes. When one "party" attacks a single type of shooting weapon, it is definitely a time for pause- cause once they get a ban on one, the rest can easily fall like dominos. Just ask Great Britain or the Aussies. (And yes, the people there are VERY much regretting that mistake...)

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Dave,

What you said about ammo was obvious to me years ago. I see guys shoot black rifles at my local range and wonder how they pay for all that ammo. I don't even own one of the cheap Surplus Garands the CMF sells. Could have bought one when they were only about a hundred bucks. Like your freind I carried one as a ground pounder in RVN and don't want another. Give me a Bolt gun or Single shot with nice wood anyday.

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from Walt Smith wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

AR's are cool and all but why buy a rifle that just invites the ATF to your front door? Besides there's nothing they can do that my 30-06 can't.

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from blueridge wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I am reminded of Robert Lee Frost's take on fences...'before I built a fence, I'd like to know what I am walling in or walling out.'

Black Rifles are just...rifles. I have one, because I can, and because there are elements in our grand country that do not want me to have one. It has a horrendous trigger, and bears the Colt brand. It lacks wood, and caliber---both of whom I desire plenty of. I never shot up the range with it, because I can do all I want with less ammo...raised with a very conservative, Dad about such things. In fact, I shoot flintlock rifles and .45 LC in rifle and pistol more than the AR15.

We are all shooters...and we need to be tolerant about the other guy's pet choices, even if he is all wet..smiling here.

On this general subject...I was sorry to see Jim Zumbo castigated because he has a quite natural aversion to them in the hunting fields. Jim gave more to us than he took, and I would be proud to ride with him...or even Petzel, the old curmudgeon. But...our curmudgeon, and he smells of gunpowder.

blueridge

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I don't know Mike. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlin's boys shot a lot of mini balls at my dad's ancestors. Mom 's family fought for the North. Wasn't that at Little Roundtrop that the 20 Maine made their bones?

Talk about shooting up ammo. I can shoot most of the day with a box of .490 round balls and a pound of Goex 3F Black with my Flintlock Longrifle. More fun than shooring a BR ever was. Try hitting a pie plate at 100 yd offhand with a flinter flashing in your face. Think I might post a pic of it and the Shiloh Sharps. That gun usually draws onlookers.

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from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

My T/O weapon was an M14 rifle, and I trusted it implicitly. While in Chu Lai (RVN) in late 1966, I was informed we'd have to turn in our M14s for M16s, and had the opportunity to fam-fire (fire for familiarization) the M16. I was unimpressed, and commented, "This toy is a Communist plot to undermine the effectiveness of the U.S. Marine Corps!"
Admittedly, I lacked objectivity. I'd qualified expert with the M14 repeatedly, trained with the M1 Garand earlier, and this .22 centerfire seemed no match for the thirty caliber rifles I'd learned to trust. In candor, it didn't seem to compare well against some of the rifles with which the opposition was equipped. My tour of duty ended before my unit received its M16s and I was thankful for that.
In time, as a reservist, I was issued other M16 variants (M16A1, and the M16A2), and I came to better appreciate (but never to prefer) the little rifle. I understand the M16 and its offspring have been the T/O weapon for 40+ years, and many of today's shooters have cut their teeth on it. To me, the .223/5.56mm has always been a varmint round and nothing less than 6.5mm should be considered for combat. I respect the opinion and experience of those who disagree; since my opinions and experiences do not affect them, let us simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Over time, I've seen the proliferation of AR variants in shops and on the cover of many shooting sports magazines. A great many accessories are offered for the black (or cammy, or whatever) rifle, and that's a fine marketing opportunity, but I have not purchased one and, despite a vacancy or two, I really don't see room for one in my safe. I see interesting and intelligent design effort, but little or no craftsmanship in these rifles. Personally, I prefer wood and steel for my own battery.
There is something for everyone, and I treasure the freedom to purchase what interests us. I am not disappointed by the AR's popularity, but I confess that I'm a bit bewildered by it.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I had the same sentiments about M-16's too. I didn't like them for a long time after I had to carry one, but 38 years down the road it seemed like a good idea at the time. If the times require it, not a bad piece in a fire fight. I believe I could still hold my own with the Bushmaster! Or snipe with my Weatherby!

Peace through superior firepower.

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from Bernie wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I carried an M-16 in the Marine Corps 40 years ago and never developed any affection for "black rifles." The last time I fired one was in 1993 when I showed some game wardens the "quick kill" technique taught to us in Marine Recon.

I have a couple semi-auto .22 rimfires, but all my centerfire rifles are bolt-actions.

Each to his/her own...

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from kolbster wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

i love the ar 15, i have shot many, and would like to buy one but the cost are to high.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Speaking of movies, what movie was ever as good or better than the book?

I watched Jim Zumbo's show last night on Outdoor Channel on a goose hunt. I'm glad to see Jim back in the saddle. I think it was a crying shame the looneys attacked him for his ill fated comment on black rifles and hunting. Shame on the sponsors that dumped him, too. While he is not a close friend, I have talked to him on many occasions over the years at various events. He is a fine fellow and I'm sure meant no harm in his comment. We should only be so aggressive when it comes to politicians and their mis-speaks!

I don't see a real place in hunting for AR types either. But that's just my opinion. I think that everyone should get a piece of the Stimulus Package and buy one! Or two. They'll get mine when they pry it from my cold fingers. Might need it to ward off the hundred of thousands of Hamas refugees that Obama ordered accomodated in the U.S. this week.

WMH

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from chuckles wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

If you bought a black rifle 'cause you think President Obama is going to take them or restrict them then you are living in fear. Relax. The Supreme Court already upheld the Second Amendment so no one is coming to get your guns. Gun owners and hunters need to focus on presenting a positive image to non-hunters and people with mixed feelings. Many of these people are from urban areas where guns are used to kill people and this tends to color their opinions on the issue. The antis will never listen to us regardless of the issue. There are a lot of people who don't care either way but think it is silly to want to shoot at animals with the assault weapons they see military/police personnel or "terrorists" carrying. I think Jim Zumbo was right and it was a damned shame the way his First Amendment rights were trampled when he had the courage to express his opinion. So protect your rights by being a responsible gun owner and sportsman while respecting the opinions of others and be willing to engage people in debate about the issues without using the phrase "cold dead fingers". Recognize that people whose sole experience with firearms may be drive-by shootings or domestic violence will need extra convincing and we will all get to keep shooting all the fun guns we want. I personally don't want to carry a box of ammo when I go hunting so I learned to shoot straight and practice often. Keep the black rifles and enjoy them, they are fun, but recognize that public opinion will be the greatest determiner of the future of our sports so tread lightly.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Oh, and years ago I bought an old 10 guage with rabbit ear hammers for 125 bucks. It was IMS a Westly Richards with Damascus barrels. Taded it off years ago 'cause of the danger thing with smokeless ammo.

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

And, like my old HK91, the fluted chamber makes it impossible to reload. I bought surplus FN Berdan stuff. I am now strictly bolt action.

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from Mark-1 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

“Appaloosa” will go down as a cult classic western. It’s a low budget flick, but great film making, writing, and acting. Five stars!!!!!!

I’ve seen two 8-ga shotguns, both doubles with rabbit ear hammers. One was in Europe where the gauge is still legal and then another that was an heirloom an old boy from Long Island had. His father was a Long Island market hunter providing NYC restaurants with waterfowl a 100-years ago.

“Appaloosa” also had my attention brought to Hitch’s belt wallet holding all brass shotgun shells. I recall my great grandfather loading those all brass shotgun shells for 10-ga by hand. He would put some kind of clear liquid on top for a top wad.

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from MLH wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I learned my lesson - figured I'd let my nephew shoot my Bushmaster while I sighted in a new scope on another rifle. He went through 100 rounds before the first target check. The next trip I took along my muzzleloader.

Sold that rifle. I want another one, but with a target barrel this time. A Les Baer would be nice, if I can come up with the bucks.

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from jjas wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

It's not just ARs (which I don't want, can't afford to feed and have no feasible use for)and high cap pistols that are in short supply. I heard that Mossberg is behind over 100,000 units @ this time.

I spend my range time with a semi-auto .22 pistol and a .22 bolt action rifle. It's funny how lead prices are @ the same level they were 5 years ago, yet the prices for ammo are still skyhigh.

Jim

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from Carney wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Looks like this would be a good time to apply for a job at Mossberg!

I've never cared one way or another for Black Rifles. Sticker price concerns me -- plus they don't have any lever models;-)

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from buckhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Black rifles are the soup de jour. It'll be something else next week, month or year.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

My take varies little from everyone else. I knew this rifle well enough to recognize its virtues and failings long ago and far away. About ten years ago I noticed that Black Rifles suddenly had good triggers and tight grouping barrels and receivers. After deliberation I elected not to buy one although I love one version of DPMS flat top with heavy barrel. The kid was shooting his customized 10/22 at that time vigorously attempting to melt down the barrel while actually hitting his targets rather than seeing how fast he could miss. Later he joined me with the bolt action center fire varmint rifles. Any consideration of obtaining a Black Rifle left me due to the cost of feeding it since the bolt guns seemingly consume ammo faster than we can reload the brass. Still maybe one day...

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from kolbster wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

the last that i heard from Glock, they were behind 160,000 on the Glock 17 9mm alone, thats not counting all the other models.

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from dwaynez wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I am staying away from them.

The appaloosa movie is worth the watch,

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from philbourjaily wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter -- You are right that the book is almost always better than the movie. with a few exceptions:
"Das Boot" -- especially the full length version -- is both the greatest submarine movie of all time and an excellent novel.
The movie version of "The Maltese Falcon" may be better than the book.
The movie "Jaws" is way better than the book, although I noticed upon seeing the movie again recently that it has not aged well.
"The Right Stuff" is equally great in its book and movie forms.
There may be a few others.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

What's going on is a run on ammo and firearms. Here's an interesting thought. In an America who, by the headlines, is full of people who never saved money and were tempted by loans with unrealistic repayment conditions and awful interest rates, the people who saved money for contingencies seem to be firearms enthusiasts.

It's one of those things that make you wonder. Are firearms owners a little more sensible than, say, the stereotypical American in the headlines?

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from jay wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I was never into black rifles; I always liked the fine walnut and luster of my weatherby rifles but I admire all guns, everything from my colt 1911 to my beretta 90two; from my Xtrema to my Winchester model 12. My wife bought me an AR-15 for Xmas a few years ago. I would have never bought one on my own. I absolutely love shooting this AR-15. I'm not sure why folks think you run thru the ammo like its water? I shoot it mostly from the bench and I don't shoot any more ammo than I would with any bolt rifle or semiauto pistol. Just don't shoot it like Rambo.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

No one'knocking BRs here, Jay, but my experience at the range is that a typical AR operator will in fifteen minutes expend more ammo than the entire 20th Maine Rgt at Gettysburg.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Dave,

If you haven't seen Jude Law and Rachel Wiesz in Enemy at the Gate get it ASAP. Best war movie you never saw.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Chuckles

Your post is a grand mixture of truth and delusion. The Obama administration only needs to put 2 justices on the Supreme Court to trample our rights. My 2nd Amendment rights have nothing to do with hunting and sport. It is my right to bear arms to protect myself from whatever shows up, be that thugs or the government. The rest of your post is good common sense.

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from chuckles wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter
Thank you for your response. I probably shouldn't have started off with such a declarative statement. The Supreme Court has definitely been known to reverse previous positions and change the rights of all Americans in doing so. I have lived on both sides of the issue. As a young man I lived in an urban area where my only experience with guns was when they were used to rob me and I have lost several friends to gun violence. In my twenties I lived out West where I was introduced to the pleasure of hunting and began to purchase and use firearms for sport and hunting. So my question to you and other participants is this. Is it possible to differentiate between firearms that are suitable for hunting and recreation/sport versus those which are better suited to killing people? Should we even try? A lot of the informed commentary I read in mags like Guns&Ammo lean towards shotguns for personal/home defense. Many of the statistics you see re handguns indicate that people are more likely to be shot or shoot family members than successfully defend themselves with a handgun. I know statistics are routinely manipulated to reinforce opposing sides of any argument. I am not coming down on either side of the issue but I do think it is important that gun owners who want to protect their rights discuss these issues. It is clear from some of the posts that some of the people who have risked their lives to defend all of our freedoms would prefer to hunt with firearms that reflect a dedication to quality and aesthetics rather than magazine capacity. With the tens of millions of gun owners in America (voters) not to mention the power of the corporations who manufacture guns, ammo and related gear I question if our gun rights are in as much danger as lots of people would have us believe. I also sincerely believe that we need to debate whether any gun, anywhere, anytime is a position that only adds strength to our enemies. I look forward to further discussion with you or anyone else who is interested, all 80 million or so. Until next time, good shooting!

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from chuckles wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

mikemontague
I did some research about the facts in your post and was wondering if you would be interested in following up for yourself before making up your mind re Pres. Obama's stance on guns. I went to the Wikipedia entry for the Joyce Foundation which has some good info on how and why they spend their money. They definitely fund some groups with clear antigun agendas (and some who defend the 2nd Amend.) but their website details how and why they do so. It is not as clear cut as the NRA makes it sound. Another good resource I found was FactCheck.org. If you type a search for "2004 obama firearms" and then go to the section about the NRA they discuss almost all the points outlined in your post. It was interesting reading. It may not change your opinion but it definitely presents a different view from the NRA fact sheets many of us received during the election. Let me know what you think if you are so inclined.
My take is that Pres. Obama seems to feel, as do many gun owners and sportsmen, that we have to try and find a balance between the right to bear arms and the fact that firearms are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths every year. His experiences in Chicago and my own in the urban area where I grew up tend to make me agree with him but I am trying to keep and open mind. Informed debate, grounded in facts, only makes it more likely we will be able to protect the rights we all cherish.
Respectfully,
chuckles

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from Douglas wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

The closest I can come to a black rifle is Swedish light infantry rifle, M38, in 6.5x55 cal.
I can burn up lots of rounds in no time just because its such a pleasure to shoot.

Any place someone can get one of those 8 gauge rabbit ear shotguns? That shotgun looked like it had pretty long barrels too. Great movie without the spaghetti western soundtrack!

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from silsbyj wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

They definatly loose their appeal when you have one strapped to you for a year or more. Thank God the Army paid for my ammo in Iraq...I dont think I would have made any money while I was there if they hadnt.

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Pardon me for being behind the times, but do I read that "black rifle" is the current nom-de-jour for military and/or knock-off weapons?

For a second, I thought it was about my Remington 700 synthetic.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I watched 'Appaloosa' the other night too. Not a bad flick, but I never could figure out the deal with the woman. Old "Virgil" must have been hard up or soft in the head.

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Man now I have to see the movie... that line is a direct quote from the book where they get in a gunfight with two brothers and the bad guy/coward that has kidnapped Cole's girlfriend. The book is an allegory really about how women control the world not men and the wild Mustangs they love to watch react to women in much the same way.

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from senkoman12 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

thats why i have i love them especailly my replica hawkens rifle

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I'm not buying one because three months ago my R-15 was $850 and at the gun show this weekend they are $1299... I'm thinking the bottom will fall out in a year when Obama does nothing against the 2nd and everyone is completely broke. I was listening to a salesman telling a guy when the $#it does hit the fan he will be able to trade a Glock 19 for a pick up truck.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

It must be true that people are on a buying spree since Democrats are in. Son and I went to three shops looking for deals and there was nothing but crap left in the display case. Man said for example a Sig SAS is backordered three months. Still haven't seen a Ruger LCP in person and the Kel-Tec 380 has disappeared from the shelves.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I like the Black Rifle/AR design before I carried one on duty. The design, and color, Remington is doing to "creatively civilize" this type of gun is a great way to keep it in the market; face it the gun sells!
Now, for me, I would look into one of the stubby little calibers they have designed for it giving it a better hunting application then the standard .223 bullet. Overall, cost would not be a factor in ammo since I "feed" a family of different guns at the moment, and shooting it more often would at least make one more proficient(hopefully)by design.
Bottom line; It's a magazine fed semi-automatic weapon that's looks more deadly then a 10/22, but other then caliber and stock color there ain't no difference in the business end of the barrel.

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from freeparking wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

The thing is, people realize it may be now or never when it comes down to owning an evil black rifle. We've already seen unprecedented legislation wrt 'stimulus' so in this brave new world who knows what might spin through congress next.
However I agree, try to wear yourself out with rimfire first or you'll go broke.

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from vtbluegrass wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Even before the gun salesman of the year was elected president the black rifle was on the rise as you may remember. I already own one by way of parts kit for $550 before everyone went crazy. Feeding the beast was horrible until I discovered reloading. I continually threaten to sell it because it serves no purpose other than lead dispenser in my collection but some days its nice when I am lacking the will and focus to be calm at the benchrest.
If push came to shove though I am with Carney and lever guns. I truly am a 336 man though I may stray to more accurate bolt guns and flashing semi-autos from time to time.

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from Shaky wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Bella; I located another mod.24 in .222/20ga. and paid the same for it that I had sold that first one for. This one, with a scope mounted, consistently shoots an 8"group at 100yds, and I can't believe I sold that other one because it would not group under 2". I tried 4 different scopes and 11 load combinations, with no marked improvement in accuracy. So today I removed the scope and shot with the iron sights. The first three went into 2.25" at 100yds.,I thought, that's impossible,I can barely see the target. Next 5 shots,(different target), measures 1.70". So Do you know of anyone who makes a peep sight for the mod 24. My worn eye isn't able to focus on all three of those objects at once.

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from Scott in Ohio wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

-
Bernie,

I never was in the service so your reference to the “quick kill” technique taught to you in Marine Recon is lost on me. - What do you mean?

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from duff wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I think Mike Diehl was first to bring up the 10/22, and that's all the speed plinking I need. I too used to carry an M16, and have no love or hate for it...just don't want one or need it now. The boys enjoy the 10/22 and several semi 22 pistols, but they've matured to the level of enjoying one by one precision shooting with varmint calibers and 7.62. I guess I kind of like having fun being able to shoot pistols at a range, and later in the same day go and find humiliation on the trap/skeet range or bird hunting. The variety makes it, and if we do find a hankerin' for full auto, there's friends I can visit.
Hey any of you guys go through life completely missing something and one day wake up and find it's widely popular? What is this movie Apaloosa?
Thanks!

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from Scott Jones wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I bought a black rifle this year after putting it off for about twenty years because I couldn't afford it. (Caught it right before they zoomed out of reason) I always liked the platform but still am not crazy about the caliber. It is fun to shoot. The .223 of today is not the .223 of twenty years ago. It's still too small for serious work but adequate for coyotes, etc. Amen to the best guns salesman comment above. Nothing makes me "need" something more than being told I don't need it. Too many Clinton types in power for me to feel comfortable with Obama's lack of accomplishment.

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from tom warner wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I must admit that I was rather disappointed in Apaloosa. That's probably because I had read the book, which was MUCH, MUCH better than the film. There are a few scenes in he movie which simply make no sense, including the gunfight you mention. The director screwed this one up - but I did enjoy it nevertheless. Tom

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from bonedoc33 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I own two Bushmasters, one tactical and one with a target barrel. However, I tend to have more fun with my Barrett at 1200 yards. Only bad thing is that at $5.00 a round, you don't shoot much.

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from okduckhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Thankfully I bought my SKS and mini-14 when they were affordable and built up a nice supply of 1000 rounds for each caliber "just in case." I used to run through the rounds at the range, until the price of ammo skyrocketed. Now I'm hesitant to shoot them because of the shortage of replacement ammo. The ammo issue used to be price; now it seems to be scarcity. The shelves are bare EVERYWHERE in Oklahoma. I would think ammo manufacturers would be working overtime to meet the demand, but it appears they are not, which seems to be driving the price up when I can find some ammo at a gun show. Anybody know what gives? Is all the ammo in caches at people's homes?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Okduckhunter

Good question. Shelves are bare in Washington state, too. Powder, bullets, and primers are in short supply. Even steel shot is scarce.

What IS going on?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Phil

I agree wholeheartedly that "Das Boot" is the greatest submarine movie of all time. I have seen every version (I think) including the full length version in German without subtitles. It is also a great anti-war commentary. I thought "Jaws" was and still is stupid and never read the book. "The Right Stuff" is really great about a great American!

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Yeah what is going on... at the gusnshow I attended last weekend American Eagle brand 30-06 FMJ $19.95. Didn't they used to run $5.95? A brick of .22's is $20- and you could buy them all day for $9.00 just a while ago.

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

That's funny, I read Jaws before the movie and had envisioned a much scarier version. Still think the book is always better because your imagination is always better...

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from Tim Platt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Yeah my fun gun is my Ruger 10/22 too but I also have a MkII pistol and M1 carbine for the range and all are a blast! Bella tell how you like your Green Mountain barrel. My .920 target barrel has seen tens of thousands of rounds and just ain't what it used to be. I've been thinking about the Green Mountain they sure work on my Knight.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

while in the service in the early 60's, I carried the M1 carbine, such a waste. then latter carried the M-16 A1. Not much better. latter getting the M-16A2, a dream to shoot and very accurate.While being the Battalion Marksmanship coordinator, I took many troops to Ft. Knox to try for the State Rifle team. M-16,M-60 and the Beretta 9MM. Our state team a couple years ago won several matches with as issued M-16A2 heavy barrel, while out shooting the M-16A4 with optical sights. I personally like the single shot concept myself, shoot longer, have fun, but a lot less expensive. I also enjoy reloading. wouldn't want to reload for a black rifle.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

What's going on is a run on ammo and firearms. Here's an interesting thought. In an America who, by the headlines, is full of people who never saved money and were tempted by loans with unrealistic repayment conditions and awful interest rates, the people who saved money for contingencies seem to be firearms enthusiasts.

It's one of those things that make you wonder. Are firearms owners a little more sensible than, say, the stereotypical American in the headlines?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I take my Bushmaster AR to the range to check the zero and plink a few rounds with the scope and with the carry handle peep sight reinstalled and then recheck the zero of the scope. With a 1x-4x Leupold set between 1x and 2x, just enough to get the front sight out of the focal plane, I can shoot with both eyes open at close range and still put rounds into the center ring.

It also gives the big guns a little time to cool off between groups! I never hit my ammo stash to take the AR to the range. I buy what I will shoot. Keeps me from wasting a whole bunch of ammo that is expensive to replace.

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from blueridge wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Del in KS...a big Hoo Rah...for Flintlocks and the Gray...and the big Sharps. Fun guns all...take a boy shooting...take a daughter and your wife, too, with ear protection...the AR works pretty well in the recreation department, by the by.

Remember Phil--there are black shotguns out there too, that many of the seasoned shooters avoid. But--power to them all. Keep 'em warm if not hot.

blueridge

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from Sportsman Matt wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I've handled the black rifles, black shotguns, small arms, and found that the only people who want them are people who are afraid that they'll be in a combat situation. Yes they are great in the battlefield, but I wouldn't trust them to defend my home. Biggest thing is the more complex, the easier they break. Also they eat more ammo the less you have to work the action.

I'll never buy a black rifle, or a black shotgun, or a military looking firearm, because I believe in the old addage "One Shot, One Kill" taught to me by my grandfather (WWII Infantry) and my father (USN 1960-1964)
who hunted on a regular basis on the family farm. The oother thing I was taught was how much ammunition cost and how much I could afford to shoot, and not to waste lead on a second shot.

Learning all that and more, I keep my 30-30 ready, with my handloading equipment and 40 rounds of ammunition, if I go through that much ammunition in a season either I'm in a warzone or definately wasting lead.

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from duckcreekdick wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Phil:
You need an AR-15 and a few extra magazines in case you are attacked by a 200# rogue chimp. Sounds like the policeman's service pistol didn't do the job.
Does anyone besides me remember the original "Appaloosa" with Marlon Brando and Robert Saxon?
A darn good film.

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from duckcreekdick wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Correction:
It is John Saxon, not Robert. Also Anjanette Comer was in the film, as well as an unnamed but fine-looking Appaloosa stud horse.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Del in KS, Enemy at the Gates was based on the book War of the Rats. If you can find a copy you will enjoy it. I would send you mine but someone borrowed it several years ago and you know the rest of that story.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Del in KS, Enemy at the Gates was based on the book War of the Rats. If you can find a copy you will enjoy it. I would send you mine but someone borrowed it several years ago and you know the rest of that story.

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from greyhunter wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

If I could afford one (AR or similiar) I would. To keep my Ak and Mini 14 company. No one says you have to unload a 30 rd clip. Almost forgot,I like my Marlin model 60 too. Wish we could hunt coyotes in Pa. with a semi like some states out west. For slow deliberate fire I prefer my flintlocks, but I'm glad I can still own my semis. Also think Jim Zumbo deserved his hiatus, he threw a lot of lawful gun owners under the bus. jmpov

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from idduckhntr wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter is right about the ammo. I used to go to Wally world at the end of duck season and buy a case of ssteel shot for $7.00 a box, now you can hardly go in there and find a box of 22 shells as far as reloading stuff aare SW (big chain store is bare) they are allways bare cant even get 243 bullets to reload.Thank God for mom and pop shops around here and the 300 rounds of stuff I have loaded just for my heavy barreld 700 308. One shot one kill.

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from elmer f. wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

well, i have been thinking about a black rifle on and off for about five years now. i never could afford one, but now, i have enough cash in hand. the problem is, that once i do buy one, then i am faced with the costs of shooting such a beast. i am certain that i would shoot the heck out of it. i do everything else i own. but, with most of my centerfire rifles, a box, or maybe two will make your shoulder sore enough to quit. a ar15, is like a 22 rimfire, you shoot until you run out of ammo (or the barrel starts to melt, lol). only a 22 rimfire is about 1/3rd the cost. so, the last few weeks, i have been contemplating between a 44 magnum revolver, or a ar15. the revolver makes more sense, but my heart desires an ar. i really hate decisions that have to be made because of a lack of money!

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from Jim Blum wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I was thinking of getting a black rifle last aug. when they were around 750.00 now they are over 1500.00.. So I got a tapco stock for my mini 14 it still throws the same 223 down range... So Iam happy.. I also have a 10 ga. that I bought back in 1979 new it is a H&R modle 110
I love it for turkeys.. My 10/22 is great but I hate reloading the 50 round clip wich I bought through Cabelas And it does work <--I was lucky this time.. See ya Later Jim

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from KMB33 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I am fourteen and do not own a black rifle, and in the fear of sounding clueless, don't even know exactly what one is. Although after seeinf the Remington R7 they sure look fun!!!

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from KMB33 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

I am fourteen and do not own a black rifle, and in the fear of sounding clueless, don't even know exactly what one is. Although after seeinf the Remington R7 they sure look fun!!!

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from ke6n wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Used to own an AR and loved it. But of course, I live in "Kalifornia" and didn't want to be bothered with the registration and restrictions that were imposed on the "nasty black guns" so I let someone else deal with it all and made a healthy profit. Used to reload for it AND shot it slow and easy so the ammo would last a while. The accuracy was really amazing for the kind of gun it was.

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from Scott Kittinger wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Had one, traded it. Had another, traded it. I ended up resting on another rifle that starts with an A.

Now my mood swings toward well-made side by sides.

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from Gunslinger wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

To each his own. I never had a use for a AK rifle. If I want to just plink my 22's will do fine. My serious hunting guns,, once zeroed tomy distsance I nevr fire again till get to hunt site. In between,for praatice i use either a 22Auto or a 22mag bolt, or one of the 4 single shot 22's i own mfgered by Daisy. With Ammo for hunting near $50 a box, few shots needed to re-check zero, and the pratice you get from the 22 bolt is ample to keep you in shape and ability to make that critical shot when it presents itself.Just be glad when weather improves so canenjoy being out side. Now so cold can;t get comfortable and removed all my heated ground blinds till next fall.

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from buckslayer7893 wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Yep i know what you mean Phil. I went through a 30 round clip in apout 25 seconds once so at the time that was like 27 dollars for 25 seconds of shooting

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

EJ Palumbo

Thank you for your service to our great nation, sir. I personally salute you.

Best regards,
WMH

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from buckstopper wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Try using a single round clip, like that used for high-power competition to not be tempted to burn ammo unnecessarily. Reload your own ammo saves cost also, although you need to invest in the right equipment. I would recommend using new unprimed brass, as reloading military ammo can be tricky to get the primer cups swagged or reamed correctly. I got in to a club that holds High-Power 100yd reduced course matches and got a Garand through them. I liked shooting it but decided to upgrade to a AR National Match because it is easer on my shoulder and ammo is cheaper than 30-06.

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from Kris wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

I agree, however I'd not turn down a gift. i figure I can do a lot with what is here if the bad guys come rushing my hilltop abode.

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

For lack of much else to do on a snowy Wyoming night I watched Appaloosa again last evening. When the kid came in from dinner with his sweetie we both watched it again. Although it is far from my favorite western I cannot fault the authenticity. Everything from weapons, gun leather and the way it was worn, clothing and hats, buildings, tack, platted rope, how the horses handled and reacted, the way the gunmen unholstered their revolvers prior to the moment of need and the rapid reloading after firing all proved to be very realistic. Ed Harris in the documentary portion stated that the 8 gauge was actually a ten with sleeves placed on it to yield the appearance of the larger gun. Great movie.

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from Sherrill Philip... wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Several of my friends have black guns and really enjoy them. Heck, they get really excited about them and want to show them off to everybody and anybody. I am happy for them, but, for me, after almost 22 years in the Marine Corps, it's kind of like a carpenter getting excited about someone getting a new nail gun. "Oh, ok, well that's nice."

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from JohnR wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Mr. Palumbo we must be what is called comtemporaries. My favorite rifle in the world was the M-14 I was issued in the Marine Corps and to a 17 year old kid who grew up hunting, it seemed to be the best rifle in the world. I have a couple of its civilian brothers, and an AR too, but its the 7.62 X 51mm that I love the most. Don't get me wrong I really enjoy my Bushmaster and it is a tack driver. I do have fun though with my National Match at the range printing tighter groups with iron sights than many of them do with their favorite scoped bolt rifle.
Chuckles I do appreciate your candor however I do not differentiate between military rifles and bolt action "sport" rifles for hunting since I use my military rifles to hunt with. I have lower capacity magazines for all of them and those are the ones I hunt with. I have had a few people politely question my ethics at first glance at my military rifles, but when I show them a 5 round magazine and they see that I don't use a scope a light goes on and suddenly I'm a minimalist. You said it correctly with "to each his own". I am no way an apologist for black or any other military style rifles. Many of those that shoot fancy and elegant bolt guns know that the grandfather of the bolt rifle is the military Mauser K-98 whose action has itself spawned many elegant and wonderful hunting rifles. The bottom line is that we all love shooting in one form or another and we have to stick together to support the Second Amendment and in so doing support each other.

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from Del in KS wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

My Army career was from 1970-1990 and never did use the M-14 for anything but to shoot blanks a couple times. However, during the 6 weeks in 1975 spent training with the Aussies (in the outback of Queensland) the opportunity came to shoot their qualification course with one of their rifles. It was IMS a British SLR in 7.62 Nato. That was an impressive rifle. Using an unfamiliar gun and with no practice shots I missed the first 3 shots then knocked down 37 straight man sized pop up targets from 50 out to 300 yds.
I was ready to trade my M-16 for one right then and there.

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from sarg wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, better keep the Glock, won't be any gas(Except from the cows) to run the truck..

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from sarg wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Dr.Ralph, better keep the Glock, won't be any gas(Except from the cows) to run the truck..

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from Frankie wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Phil,

Please don't perpetuate the myth that all these guns are good for is launching lead downrange. It re-enforces the contention of our opponents that "black rifles"* are practically machine guns. There's no reason to have a higher rate of fire with an AR-15 than you'd have with your A-Bolt.

Hate to say it, but this "Fudd" mentality is the cause of the greatest schism within the gun owning community. Older shooters like you have deliberately separated yourselves from the younger shooters. The very same shooters the NRA encourages you to bring into the sport.

Go lurk for a while on "The Firing Range" on the Something Awful forums to get some perspective: http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=132 Believe it or not there are young people who love shooting, are adamant about CCW rights for law abiding citizens, have a respect for historical arms and even hunt too. They also have a wicked sense of humor so be prepared.

*(another ridiculous term they're using)

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from ishawooa wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Yesterday I stopped to fill my diesel pickup. A friend pulled up at the gas pump and quickly emerged from his pickup. In his hand was a "black rifle" that he had more or less built himself. He went through what had been done to it, how it was accomplished, and described the accuracy of the piece. I opened the action, checked the trigger, and went through the usual motions we all do when examining a new rifle. Since Carl was so happy with his rifle I merely smiled and nodded in agreement. I had rather been checking out a heavy barrel .22-.250 bolt rifle but for Carl the black rifle was the exactly what he wanted. This represents a significant degree of freedom in that if we don't want a black rifle we allow others to enjoy them for the toys that they are.
By the way I want to express my thanks to CPT BRAD for the impressive accomplishments and time spent defending our nation in recent years. Even though I don't know you I can tell that your heart is right and that you are the kind of man that really makes America free. God bless you sir.

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from mikemontague wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

* 1994 to 2001 - Obama was on the board of the anti-gun Joyce Foundation. This foundation is the largest funding source for radical anti-gun groups in the country.
* 1996 - Obama supported a ban on the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.
* 1999 - Obama proposed a 500 percent increase in the excise taxes on firearms and ammunition. This tax would effectively punish gun owners for buying guns and ammunition.
* 2003 - Obama voted in support of legislation that would have banned privately owned hunting shotguns, target rifles and black powder rifles in Illinois.
* 2004 - Obama voted against legislation intended to protect homeowners from prosecution in cases where they used a firearm to halt a home invasion.

I am not interested in a "black rifle" either. But let us not lose sight of the above information folks.

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from philbourjaily wrote 5 years 7 weeks ago

Frankie -- I've got two younger shooters in my family -- one 15 and one 19 -- so I've got a pretty idea what the next generation of shooters is about. Like them, I think AR rifles are pretty cool. Since there's nothing in my home state to hunt with a centerfire, the only reason for me to own one would be as a plinking/target rifle, and I'm tempted, but I'll stick with my .22s for reasons of economy. Does that make me a Fudd?

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from Edward J. Palumbo wrote 5 years 6 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter,
Thank you for your comment, but I was just a mischievous 19-20 year old kid with a sense of humor. It was my privilege to work with a remarkable group of people, and I've remained in contact with several of them. We remain like brothers and, on those occasions a few of us get together, we become 20 yr-old kids again.

JohnR,
The M14 served its purpose well, and it really did seem inconceivable that it would be replaced by something arguably "better". I developed a better understanding of the saltier troops who felt the Springfield or Garand was the best rifle issued. They relied on them in previous wars and trusted their ability with those rifles completely. I have no argument with those who feel the same way about the M16 variants that followed; they obviously had the time and reasons to trust their rifles. I remain impressed with the performance of American military personnel with whatever weapons they're issued. There appears to be no generation gap there!
Best wishes, gentlemen. I enjoy reading your opinions and learning from your perspectives and experiences.
Ed

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from Bella wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Amen to that. I too own a 10-22 and find it more than adequate for plinking. I too had enough of "Black rifles" while wearing a green suit. If I'd wanted one I coulda had one, 'cause I know somebody with a closet dust collecter I coulda had for asking. Don't like the dang things though so no.

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from Bella wrote 5 years 8 weeks ago

Hey there Shakey, I was interested to hear of your .222/20 Savage. My .22/.410 wouldn't shoot accurately with glass sights either. I tried 2 different red dot sights and 2 different scopes. I went back to the rather crude looking iron sights(with which it is a tack driver). An issue always was that the scope mountings are just grooves in the upper barrel and don't give proper support to the scope mounting, so if you fire the shotgun barrel if throws the mount off. However,If I wanna shoot a scoped .22 I have my laminated thumbhole stocked 10-22 with a 3x to 9x optic. I've got a button rifled Green Mountain target barrel for it on the way, a plinkers delight.
If one wants to feed ones desire for a scary looking tactical style "black rifle" they make so many stock options for the 10-22 you can make it look like anything. I thought the bullpup stock was a slick design (if ugly), then there is the MG42 conversion in Sportsmans Guide. The notion that one can convert ones .22lr plinker to look like a WWII Nazi machine gun kinda seems surreal to me. Why? Reenacting the battle for Anzio in suburban New Jersy? Impressing (stupid) Skinheads? Putting realistic accoutrements on you volkswagon Thing so It looks like an Afrika Corps kubelvagon? (A boyfriend had one, claimed it was a "chick magnet", though I didn't just like him for his car...) Whatever...Long Live Sturm Ruger Inc.

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from dogbreeds wrote 3 years 11 weeks ago

Try utilizing a single round clip, like this used for high-power competition never to be tempted to be able to burn ammo unnecessarily. Reload your special ammo saves expense also, although you'll want to invest in the correct equipment.

By the way I would like to express my as a consequence of CPT BRAD for any impressive accomplishments in addition to time spent protecting our nation lately. blue heeler puppies Even though I do not know you I can tell that heart is right and you're the kind of man that basically makes America cost-free. God bless a person sir.

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