So is there an effective max on group size for hunting rifles? More specifically, at what point would you say that this rifle is just to inaccurate to ethically hunt with?

Obviously this would vary between levers, pumps, bolts, and single action rifles. The layout of my Marlin 336 precludes a lot of the accuracy tweaks that can be given to a bolt action rifle, and possesses a lot of traits that do not contribute to MOA accuracy. And that's fine by me.

I've only just worked up a load with Hornady's LeverEvolution bullets, and the first round produced 2.5" at 50 yards. I haven't shot it at 100 yards yet, so I won't extrapolate and say that it's a 5-MOA rifle.

But I would ask you, at what point should I say, 'this load does not produce acceptable accuracy for hunting'?

If a person keeps their shots within 300 yards(as they should) a rifle that prints 2" moa is more than accurate enough to take big game.

I guess we all have our standards. Someone else might take the rifle and be very happy hunting with it. I, too, however, would find it very frustrating every time I looked at it. Some guns I can forgive (Model 71, for instance), but not a pedigreed bolt action that should do better? I might try a few other tweaks besides loads, though, before seeing it off.

About 16 2/3% of the time that gun will shoot a lights out group. However, 10 of those 12 groups are better than a lot of people will ever shoot in their life, so I would say that the gun shoots sufficiently.

Funny, my '06 doesn't like 165gr Sierra BT but loves Hornady FB.

I must be looking at that muzzle brake picture wrong, the center ring looks to have a bore the size of a pinhole.

David I know your experience I won’t waist anytime with that so try doing this with your scope.

Place the scope or scoped rifle on a solid rest then adjust it at something say 100 yards or so. Now with the crosshairs solidly on the target, move your head up and down and all around without disturbing anything and see if the crosshairs move off that point of aim? I’ve had several scopes do that, I replaced the scope on my 25-06 which I knew it was pounding dimes at 100 yards and with the new scope; the group went from a dime to 4 to 6 inches. This is when I discovered the crosshair problem with numerous manufacturers!

What does 'corrector' mean?

"An inch and a half is the best grouping most individuals ever get from a rifle, especially if they don't roll their own."

BeeKeeper, my Browning A-Bolt in .243 Win. shoots 0" M.O.A. groups (bullets into the same bullet hole) at 100 yds using HSM manufactured 100 grain Boat Tail Soft Point ammo as sold by Cabela's. I'm extremely happy with that rifle, even though I did buy it used.

Clay, what you experienced with your scopes is caused by an Objective distance that is farther than the maximum distance your scope can handle before your crosshairs move off a target when you move your head. The scopes with Adjustable Objectives compensates for these longer distances. Scopes of this nature are also range-finding, because by adjusting the objective till the image is crystal clear, all you have to do is look to see at what distance marker the turret stopped (short of infinity), and from there you can correct your own shot to compensate for bullet drop, if any.

Some people get to a point in their shooting life where they know what a cartridge/manufacture can and should do. Tolerance for what it does is not predicated on whether or not it is accurate enough to humanely kill a deer at whatever range you determine to be far enough. I don't think any of us would question whether Dave has the experience to know what a cartridge or manufacture is capable of so if he sent this gun back because he expected more, that means the gun was underachieving. I don't make it a practice of pandering to blog master Petzal but seeing how my job deals with rifles and such, my tolerance of well known names (and some not so well known)and poor accuracy has caused me to test and return quite a number of alledged well known rifles that shoot pretty good, but not good enough.

Jim in Mo
It does look like a pin hole, but I think thats just the way the light is shined on it.
Looks like just the thing to put on my .22 K hornet to tame the massive recoil.

Dave, If I am reading the numbers correctly we are looking at .5 to just under 2 inch difference, roughly. Where is the problem? Are we discussing hunting, cold barrel shooting or competition shooting here?
Factory, out of the box shooting factory ammo, I like them numbers!

Unlike some of the posters here, I am not going to give David P. a shooting lesson or a pep talk about his rifle. If its inaccuracy had anything to do with the barrel or its crown, action bedding, scope or mounts, locking lug engagement, or the loads going through the gun, he of all people would find it fast.

Inaccurate bolt action rifles make me sick; I'd rather own a 3" Model 94 Winchester (I do) than a 2" bolt. Why use a bulkier, slower shooting, poorer handling, longer, and more expensive action than a levergun or a semi, if it doesn't shoot straight? I've sold at least three solely because they didn't group. I kept the one inchers.

Many years ago I remember seeing a photo of Kenny Jarrett's son holding one of his rifles. Half the rifle was in his left hand, and half was in his right. Jarrett did everything he knew to make the rifle shoot, and it just wouldn't cooperate. So, he sawed it in two. I liked where his head was at. Go, Kenny!

I thought that when I had a flyer it was just me, I did something wrong. But know I can blame that damn gun.

I had a Ruger # 1 in .308 that would do that. Of course, I think that's much more common in # 1's than in many other rifles, but still. I ended up "shimming" the hanger with some Bondo auto-body filler and sanded down the barrel channel on the fore end to free float the barrel. I also slid a piece of a plastic shot cup from inside a shotgun shell up between the barrel and the hanger to put constant pressure, kind of a poor man's accurizing screw. Anyway, after that the rifle would typically print the first two shots touching and the third a little high, averaging 1" groups using 168 gr. Federal match. Good enough.

But if I shot it once, took the target home, shot the same target one time the next day, and repeated that a third day, so that the barrel never had time to heat up it would put all the shots in nearly the same hole. The bottom line was that for me, this was an incredibly consistent, accurate deer rifle when I would almost never need to fire it more than once or twice in a day. I sold it later because I live in a shotgun state and hardly ever go hunt anywhere that allows rifles, but I really wish I had it back.

So, I wonder if we make judgments about accuracy using a system that doesn't really replicate the rifle's real uses. If you're shooting a varmint or target rifle where you'll fire many shots in a sitting, then of course you want to test that it can be accurate shot after shot in one sitting. But if you're only shooting one shot at big game, or maybe a follow up, then the only shot that really matters is the first one: the cold one. Maybe we should be testing these rifles like that. If it puts the cold shot in the same place day after day, who cares if it puts the fifth shot 1 1/2" away. Odds are, you'll never get to that fifth shot in 90% of big game hunting situations anyway.

I like horseman308's comment. The truth is when I hunt the only shot that counts is the very first one. I struggled with this when I got into muzzle loading rifles. I could get a great group but the first shot was always a flier. Finally I got this great idea of pouring powder down the barrel and popping off a cap in the dark before I hunted. Without the pressure it would just shoot a flame in the air with little to no noise. Suddenly the gun was super accurate. I think those sabots need some burnt powder in the barrel to grab a hold of. The reality is go shoot your gun once. Go out a week later with the same target and shoot it once. This is the only way to replicate a true hunting situation.

I'll give you $100 for that nasty '06

dave, do us all a favor and find out why this rifle shoots like that before you get rid of it. it is your responsibility to us all as this is your blog. it would be interesting to know what is wrong with the rifle.

Anything wrong with the rifle that you or I would see, he would see. For the guy who suggested that Dave get his eyes checked, how do you explain that Dave shoots just fine with his other rifles, but suddenly goes blind with this one?

I repeat, unless you are talking about a relatively cheap gun to shoot elephant cartridges with or a piece of $80 surplus, an inaccurate bolt rifle has no mission in life and no reason to live. With Marlin, Savage, Mossberg, etc. making $300 rifles that will outshoot Dave's and do it consistently, there is no reason to tolerate a bolt gun that won't shoot. Sell it, give it to an amateur gunsmith to practice on, or saw it in half, Dave.

If i had half as many tack drivers as mr. petzal i wouldnt spend a whole lot of time worrying about a gun like that.

Dave

Go back to the F&S article on rifle accuracy problems that you wrote in 2004 and look up your answer. It's still in the website archives... I read it this morning. LOL Have a nice weekend!

Petzal quote: It is a .30/06 of excellent pedigree, a factory rifle, not custom.

Hmmm...perhaps we have found the problem. Petzal with a factory rifle and not a $14,000 custom job. LOL.

Dave, you can send it to me, I'm sure I'll find a use for it. Even if it only averages around 1.5" @ a hundred yards.

Jim

This isn't rocket science. Buy or draw a target of your intended quarry and its vitals. If you can hit the vitals at the longest range you intend to shoot, every time, you and your rifle are accurate enough.

A rifle that shoots 1.5 MOA groups is not accurate enough...if you are hunting chipmunks.

AsI've stated mamy times,not enough pratice is our # 1 problem. few weeks prior to my Rocky Mytn hunts,I try to shoot 3-4 tims a week using the AMMO my Rem 06 loves. After i'm satisfied with my shooting, I clean the gun well and run a smp cloth of Rem oil down teh bbl once. Then I go to my shootin range and shoot 3 rounds. As a rule, so far, the accuracy is still where I want it ti be. Then I stop and do not clean again till after my hunt is over, which may be a month before the gun is cleaned. I use the l80 gr Scricco's by Rem and they will print about 2-3" at 200 yds all day. For 73+ yr old guy I can;t do better, and 2 yrs ago I killed a huge deer in MT at 345 yds with the 06 and a Lope in Wy at 325 yds with my 25-06 by Remington. I doubt I ever shoot beyond that distance again. I do know what my rifles are capable of doing if I do my part. Shoot-um-straight and often.On B/P guns I run a moist cloth down the bbl after each shot as the POwerBuilt Sabots fit so tight they will not seat unless i do so. I killed a 9 pointer here at home last yr at l70 yds with the above.If I can get 2-3" groups with the B/P at 100 yds I'm happy, but this CVA gun will do that at 200 yds. If I do the above.

WHOOPS!

It actually reads "FRONT TOWARD ENEMY"

Editing and QA, a never ending battle!

Stuff like this is part of the reason I enjoy hunting so much. I am a tinkerer by nature and love to reload and work with a gun until I find out what makes it tick. I also find more satisfaction in taking an animal with a gun I have had a hand in making a real "shooter"

In 1994 Winchester came out with their pre-64 type Model 70 Classic & I bought one immediately, also in .30-06 and mounted a Leupold 3.5-10x40mm Matte Black Vari-X III scope on it.

The rifle is a thing of incredible beauty to behold with stainless barrel & action, black synthetic stock, and matte black mounts, rings & scope :-) I have over $1000 in it between the rifle, scope, mounts, etc. which I realize is not really a lot of money anymore, but this was 15 years ago.

It shoots into about 4-6 inches at 100 yards, off sandbags on a concrete bench.

I've tried all different kinds of ammo, Rem 150g Core-Lokt pointed soft-points, Win 150g, Win Premium 165g Silver-Tips, Federal something or other, and it always shoots into 4-6 inches, which I consider to be just sickening.

I've had 2 or 3 friends shoot it with the same results. It did have a "lawyers" trigger when I got it, that must have broken at over 10 lbs. It was the kind of trigger where you'd start the squeeze, and squeeze, and squeeze, and squeeze, until your eyes started to water and you wondered if the damn thing was ever going to go off :-)

I had a gunsmith who builds match rifles do a trigger job on it for $30 & it breaks at about 48oz now, like a thin glass rod, as they say, but it still won't shoot.

My buddies at the shooting range all say I should hand-load for it. I bought one of the inexpensive Lee Load-All kits for .30-06, that looks like it should work pretty well, so I guess I'll try that next.

Don K

crm3006 - Thanks very much for the suggestions, I will check that stuff & report back, and also probably try my hand at reloading :-)

Don K

Don K;do all the things crm advised,if you don't find a problem, try a different scope. I bought a new scope last summer and installed it on a rifle that shoots remarkably well. After several groups that measured 3 to 5 inches,I reinstalled the old scope, and the rifle returned to it's former glory. I sent the new scope back to Leupold and explained the problem, and received it back in 9 days with a letter explaining what they had found and apologizing for the oversight and my trouble. I reinstalled the new scope, and the rifle shoots as well with the new scope as the old one. Scopes, rifles, cars, mixers,etc,etc, are made by man, and man is subject to mistakes and the manly thing to do when he's discovered his mistake is to admit it and make it right. In all my dealings with Leupold they have never failed me.
If another scope performs the same I would take the rifle back to the gunsmith and tell him what it does, and ask him to check it over muzzle to pad and if it does't cost more than $50 to fix it. If it costs more to call me first.
I don't believe hand loading is going to cure your problem, but it is enjoyable (if you can find components) and adds another demention to the sport. Good luck.

Don K,

T.W. and crm 3006 said it well. Let me add take a new dollar bill, fold lengthwise and slip it under the barrel. Now slide it down the barrel to the action. If the stock is touching the barrel anywhere along the way the dollar will stop. You can wrap coarse sandpaper around a dowel and open the barrell channel a little. Keep trying the dollar until there is no contact from the action forward. Once there is no contact seal the wood with Tru-oil. This is what I did with my Mdl 70 FWT and it worked. Another trick is to re-crown the barrel. A new barrel is the way to go if none of the above works. Also I would recommend you get a chronograph after you get settled in with reloading. Some models are inexpensive and it gives you the satisfaction of knowing exactly what velocity you are getting from your reloads.

If you need a good gunsmith you might call Mike Allee of Mission, KS Ph 913-722-6606. Mike only takes calls on Fridays and Mondays 11am-7 pm. He is very good at rebarreling rifles.

Scott in Ohio

Go to the top of this page and click "GUNS", then choose "Rifles" and down the left column is an article "How to diagnose inaccuracy problems".

WAMtnhunter . . .

Nice to see another .257 Roberts (I presume) shooter out there. I'm a huge fan of the cartridge, as well as the 257 AI.

If you access the Message Boards on this site, then go to "The Firing Line" blog, then access a blog question entitled "Do Chronographs Lie?", you'll find loading data I've experimented with for the .257 Roberts which you might find interesting--100-grain bullets/48-grains of Hodgdon H-100-V; and 115-grain bullets/46 grains of H-100-V--along with surprising chronograph results for each respective bullet weight/load. I'm curius about your own handload recipes for the Roberts, if you wouldn't mind sharing them.

My daughter's Model 70 Featherweight in .257 Roberts--which has been tinkered with a bit (glass- and pillar-bedded, barrel floated, trigger fine-tuned, magazine box removed and replaced with a modified box which permits me to load bullets that are 2.9" OAL, etc.)--but which still has the original barrel, will shot MOA or slightly better than MOA with the handloads listed in the "Do Chronographs Lie?" blog question, as well as with Hodgdon's standard load of 48 grains of H-380 and 75-grain Hornady V-maxes.

TWD

Most of our problems with accuracy is the shooter, not enough pratice or wrong ammo. My last Rem 700 CDL shot 2" groups out of the box. I use Nikons Monarch scops 3x9x40 with Leupold Dual Dove Tail mountign set up. I also use adab of fingernail polish on all screws and the scope has stayed 0 with on exception after 8 trips by plane to MT. That one exception was I tried some plain old Winchester SP l80's and they left a residue built up in the rifling.After a good cleaning, I tried the Scricco's again and was back to 0. Once I do my practing rounds,clean the gun well, and mean well, then I shoot 3 rounds thru the gun and make sure the 2nd and 3rd shots are perfect. I never clean the gun bbl again till season is over. PLus, I always use a small piece of elec tape over the muzzle at all times on any gun I take out hunting. This works for me. All my hunting guns for big game weigh around 9-10 lbs , but to each his own.Buy a proven, quality firearm, good scope ( not a Wally World) and mounting system, then pratice , pratice. A few extra $$$ spent prior to the hunt, is the best $$ you can spend. After spending 5-7K for a Rocky Mtn hunt, the ammo is the most important item you will use, as you mostly get only one shot at a TROPHY. And, 14K for a firearm in my book is a money wasted. As you can get a quality firearm and set up for under l500.00. I have a Custom built Mauser, and my Rem 700 is by far a better big game gun.I plan to sell the Mauser and buy a few other firearms i would like to have. Shoot-um-straight and often. PS; It appears us hunters are going to need to take care of the Wolves and Cougars out West. The one area I hunt, the Game Dept estimation of Elk Cows is around 3600 and their goal is 6000 to 9000 animals. Wolves and Cougars , estimated kill 70% of new born calves and some Cows with calves. I plan to do my part, legal or not.Gut shoot the suckers so they will run off from your hunt area and die.The Game Comm, better allow us to kill them legal, or us NR hunters will be wasting our $$$ to go West.I live in W-tail country and we got many, but also lots of Coyotes which we hunters in my area have declared WAR on them. Good hunting to all, hope you will draw if you applied.

ithe John Q. Public demanding lighter guns, the mfgers have cut wt to the bare minimum. The have made the bbls so thin to reduce wt that after one shot they are hot as the older guns after a dozen. When I buy a new gun I buy 3-4 brands of Ammo. The I take that gun along with some others to my range and shot the new gun 3 rimes with one brand of Ammo. Set it aside, clean and let it cool. I ahoot othr gns while it cooling. Then I go back to the new gun and repeat the same and do that with all the new Ammo I bought. Then I decide which brand I will break the gun in with. But, I never shoot more than 5 rounds and let cool. after about 50-60 rounds the gun comes to itself ad then i know if its a keeper or not. Again, thin bbls and ceap ammo and not enough pratice is most of our problems with poor accuracy.I add butt end wt to my guns to get around 9-10 lbs total, scoped and loaded.I also prefer a button rifled bbl to the others, I believe they more accurate. But again, thats just my opinion. Now and then a cheope will fool us, but not often.The MArlin XL7 does wht they say.It is a great cheap gun only needs a longer bbl for greater distance for better down range shots.To me a custon gun is the entire gun is made by the gunsmith, such as mine does.Most of us could make a semi-custom gun by buying the pieces from Brownells. Shoot-um-straight and often.

It's been my experience with my Marlin XL-7 30.06 that to be the most accurate in my sighting the weapon is to bench mark the first two shots (100 yrds); wait 10 minutes to cool the barrel and fire the 3rd round. After that I wait at least 30 minutes (with the bolt action open) if the temp outside is cool and longer in warmer days before I do it again.

I feel ppl do not take into account that successive firing of their weapon heating up the barrel can effect accuracy when you are looking for very tight groups. Also a crosswind as little of 10 mph will cause a 1" drift alone and needs to be taken into acct before you begin to question whether your rifle is defective or not.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys ...

Now - if it would only quit snowing long enough to go to the range :-)

Don K

from WA Mtnhunter
Go to the top of this page and click "GUNS" ...

WA Mtnhunter - I just checked that, thanks. In fact I remember reading it in the F&S magazine, I've been getting it forever :-)

I forgot to mention in my first description that I also "broke in the barrel", a mind-numbing exercise where you clean the barrel, fire one shot, repeat several times, then clean & fire 5, then clean & fire 10, etc. What a waste of time that was :-)

Before I consider rebarreling, I'll remount the scope & make an assortment of handloads.

Don K

crm3006 - Thanks for the advice, I don't think I can compete with all the hot air coming out of DC :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJUFTm6cJXM

Don K

WA Mtnhunter, I too am a Winchester man. My Grandfather gave me his pre-64 Model 70 in .270 when he couldn't hunt anymore. I shoot $14 a box ammo and get 100' groups you can cover w/a nickle. Not much incentive to handload there. I think "accurate enough" is in the eye of the beholder though.

Don K-
That one is a stomp down knee slapper. I was laughing so hard that The Bookkeeper came in and wanted to replay. Now she is going around the house singing "If we had some global warming."
BTW, if you do remount that scope, don't go "farmer tight" on the rings. 20 to 25 inch
lbs is plenty tight, and too tight can affect the scopes performance. Tight is very good on the mounts, just don't twist anything off, that is a real PITA. Good luck and thanks for a good laugh.
crm