Great story! I was shopping for a Browning Micro Hunter rifle for my wife a while back. I went into one of the large retail stores famous for its selection. Walked up to the gun counter and looked for a few minutes not locating what I had come after.

A young salesman came up and asked if he could be of help, very pleasant young man. I told him I was searching for a Browning Micro Hunter Rifle and didn't see one on the rack. He responded with a large, I know more than you grin and prompty offered to hand me a Browning BPS in 20 gauge. "Here you go sir, just what you were looking for." I looked at him in disbelief and replied that the firearm in his hands was indeed a Browning but it was a pump shotgun. "No sir this is (with emphasis) a rifle."

Along comes the manager who immediately backs up his young employee and assures me that the object in questions was indeed a Browning Micro Hunter rifle. I stared at them both in utter disbelief. I started to stammer something but it died in route to my vocal chords. Remembering sound advice that my grand pa gave me, "Never get into a braying match with a Jackass," and being outnumbered by two Jackasses I promply left the store. I have yet to return...

holy crap!!! man what an idiot. i hope you told the management because if someone did us the wrong ammo and the gun blew up, if that happened on the advive of a salesman, then there could be dire legal consequences.
thank god for google. i like to do as much research on the internet so i dont have to rely on "experts".

I can't believe some of the stories I've heard at the bass pro shot near my house. Guys go in there looking for their first gun and get a whole boat load of what is best their opinion, at worse just plain old bad information. Seems like you cannot kill anything unless you have one of the new short magnums. I'm catching all kinds of grief on the "Close Calls: Two Hunters Dodge a Charging Moose" because I don't buy the story. These are the same kinds of stories you hear at the big chains. Swimming out 300 yards in freezing water and dragging a 1500lb moose back to shore just doesn't make sense. Just don't buy it.

To Beekeeper:
I to had a similar expeience at a big retail store. I thought my story was bad but I think you got me beat. I wanted to look at Mini 14. There was two of them alongside three AR15'. I asked the young salesman if I could look at one of the Mini's and he informed me that they didn't carry them. After some arguing I finally asked to see one of the AR's with the full length wood stock. I asked him how long Ruger had been making AR's and he replied for years. Where do they find these people?!

We in KC have some pretty good gun shops. Wallyworld is the only place that has know nothing clerks.

Seems as if the larger chains, such as Bass Pro and Academy, have an ID10T clause in their hire in policy. I have been solemnly informed that Savage does not make left handed firearms, Springfield Armory's M1A is a "machine gun", and cannot be purchased by the public, there is no such caliber as the .222, (Sir, it's a .223) and many other dumb bunny remarks to numerous to remember. My number one complaint is the guy who acts like he is nailed to the counter he is propped up on and is too bored to show you something that you probably, in his opinion, don't need anyway.

There are a few good salesman in the chain stores, but by and large they either no very little or care very little (or both).

It's our own fault though. We sold out to big chain stores for better prices and more convenient hours. My advice is do your research and trust yourself only.

Jim

I'm not the most knowledgeable but I've learned not to trust most salesmen. I usually visit a place 3 or 4 times asking the same questions until I can verify the correct answer and ID the knowledgeable vs the know it alls. I also like to listen to them as they are speaking to other customers just to get a feel for what they know. Unfortunately I haven't had much better results at the mom & pop stores. I usually don’t see the blatant stupidity that you all have talked about, but it seems that all too often they base their answers on biased opinions or limited experience rather than knowledge (either 1st or 2nd hand). I’ve noticed that in the big stores they seem to know very little about a lot of things and in the small stores the tend to be very focused on their knowledge. Some stores don’t seem to be aware of the most recent gun put out by a certain company but can tell you more than you want to know about Kimber’s and Kimber’s only, and by the way, Glocks are crap. When I was looking for my first pistol I can't tell you how many times I got the glock lecture or the 1911 lecture or the "what are you going to use it for" lecture that usually ends in a "you are inferior and shouldn't own a pistol but if I were to condescend to sell you one I'd recommend that you by a .22, practice daily for 10 years, and then come see me and we'll talk about graduating to a 9mm". The whole time I’m screaming “I want a 40 cal, you idiot!”

Equally unfortunate are the endless streams of unknowledgeable consumers that seem to want to compensate for their lack of knowlege by buying guns from egomaniacs, just so they can say they bought it from this guy who knows everything.

To spuddog's last point, it never ceases to amaze me that people will spend more money on an identical item from one store just to say they bought it from there. Even if that store does have a more knowledgeable staff (and that can be debated), I might ask there and then buy from a shop I know to be much less expensive.

Story sounds sadly like folks who don't know a damned thing about politics but still get to cast their vote for the knuckleheads who make an abortion out of the Constitution.

"The worst part is, these people that have minimal firearms knowledge talk down to you! I almost can't blame them though, because most of the would be customers are equally, if not more clueless. It's pretty sad. Scary, even."

That is a very interesting statement actually and I honestly can't disagree. If both the sellers and buyers of firearms can be such a stupid lot of people, why should society trust us with them?? Sure some will claim that it's guaranteed in the constitution, but for many it isn't all that simple, and maybe rightfully so.

For a very similar reason, I am currently going through the process of applying for an FFL, in the hopes of opening my own shop one day - one people enjoy visiting.
My first gun buying experience was terrible. I was a college senior in the great city of Columbia, SC. I'm an avid shooter and research major purchases extensively. I had done all of my research and had decided that I wanted to buy a Sig P226 for my first handgun. I had saved up my money and went to the local gun shop frequented by many residents (the one with the indoor shooting range, Columbia residents). Anywho, as I stood at the display case with nearly $1,000 burning a hole in the pocket of my khaki shorts, I was blatently ignored by the "seasoned" fat guy behind the counter, gumming it up w/ his buddy, clearly not interested in buying anything. 15 minutes later, he finally asks, "what do you need?" I told him that I was interested in the Sig 226 and his comment was, "why? The Glock is a lot cheaper and easier to shoot."
I ordered that Sig from Gunbroker.com, and actually bought it for less than I had found in the stores.

You know, pretty much everything, every word posted above, and all the people, are correct.

I try whenever I can to correct gently. I was laid off in '01 in the dot-com crash, and again 3 years ago from an aircraft maintenance facility. For that reason, I really try to think about people who just want a job.

But I would rather just hear "I don't know." from someone rather than wrong, or biased, or even, as above, potentially dangerous info. I also have less tolerance for some of the kids that think showing up in the correct shirt qualifies them for a check, and anything else is too much trouble to bother with.

You're right, but it isn't just guns...
-Kawasaki dealership: "I don't carry that trash anymore." (about a KLR250, the Marine scout motorcycle).

-GameStop: "Yes, that controller will work with the new games." (I have a son, and knew it doesn't, and gave up trying to convince him).

-Dick's Sporting Goods: "No, not those. But what you really want-" (I didn't listen any farther as I left).

That last is the type I really get irked about. When someone tries to tell me "what I really want".

And when you do manage to find a gun shop populated by courteous people who know what they are doing and are not opinionated to the point of being obnoxious, BUY FROM THEM, rather than using their time and experience
and then ordering online or at a discount place to save $15.

My uncle just was layed-off from the sawmill after 40 years. He thought he would get a job at the new Walmart in the sporting goods department, until he was called back and told what the pay was. $8 per hour for the manager of the department, that right there is why no one with any knowledge works in those places, if your smart enough to know anything, you have moved on to something with better pay. You get what you pay for, low prices = low quality of service.

My first experience with a big store was when my wife wanted to buy me a rifle as a gift. I knew that she felt a little uncomfortable filling out the paperwork herself so I went with her. We both have our own last names. I showed her exactly what I wanted. A Remington 700cdl in 06 with a Nikon scope. As she filled out the paper work I went to a different isle to get some ammo. By the time I got back she was red-faced and three guys were all standing around her looking like macho boys getting a kick out of an inside joke. The problem was that she mentioned that the rifle was for me. At that moment the manager was called in and the store went into alert mode. "You can't do that. It is illegal to buy a fire arm for someone else." They gave her so much (*&^ that she almost cried thinking that she would be arrested. As soon as I showed up and gave them some of my own (*&^ and put a thousand dollars in cash down on the counter the oiled machine started working again. Much apology was said and we walked out with some free merchandise for our troubles. The problem was not policy. I do believe that buying firearms for others is not a good thing. But the common sense goes out the window when people can't put things into context. If this "law" was upheld to the letter, no one would ever buy a "youth" model because you would not legally be able to buy a gun for your son or daughter. Pretty soon they are going to make you put down what deer you plan to shoot and what acres you are allowed to use it on. I could very well see a felon getting someone else to purchase a weapon on their behalf for criminal intent. But that is on the person purchasing the weapon and has nothing to do with the seller. I feel that if it was the other way around and I was the one purchasing the rifle for my girlfriend no questions would be asked.

I was recently in a gun shop and a woman wanted to buy a 3"magnum 30-06. Plenty of idiots on both sides of the counter.

bwana1,
She was probably trying to buy it for her husband/son. Why do people think other people are idiots/stupid just because they don't speak the exact firearm terminology? If we were all that smart I guess we'd all be working at a firearm museum. People know what they want but it may take a good salesman to help them sort it out what it is, and those that know what they want but don't know what they need, needs a good salesman all that much more.

So I have a 2 1/2" Winchester Model 1912... I have used 2 3/4" shells in it often, even though the shells sometimes stick in the ejection port. Am I damaging this weapon?

I just thought of one story a gun store employee told me and my son a few years ago. We were looking at an old model pre-safety Marlin .45-70 with the long barrel. I really liked the gun even with the crack in the pistol grip which I figured could be repaired or certainly replaced. The gun salesman remarked that the .45-70 was a great cartridge for "up close and personal" use on big animals. He went on to say that his uncle had one that he shot at this guy from 500 yards away. This guy would put on his outfielder's baseball mitt so he could reach up and catch the big slugs as they passed by. I looked at my kid and back at the salesman. I realized that the fellow was not joking and seriously thought we believed him. The kid and I burst out laughing, I put the Marlin back on the rack, and we walked out. We still chuckle about this from time to time and wonder how much we should download our hot .45-70's so as to not penetrate a good Mizuno or Wilson mitt. I know you guys are all intelligent but just as a reminder please don't try this catching bullets trick at home.

I've picked up quite a bit of fired brass on the public land where I shoot the most. Last fall I was setting up for a bit of scope zeroing and noticed a brassy gleam on the path back to my pickup. I thought at a glance I had found a handful of .300 Weatherby cases but they had very short necks, I then noticed that every one of them had splits in the shoulders. I looked at the head stamp and read R-P .300 Win.Mag. Well I just dropped them in the scrap can, shook my head, and went ahead with my sighting-in. About 20 min. a small SUV drove up and two young fellows piled out and asked if I was done shooting.
I told them I would verify my zero and be done in 5min. One said he had just bought a new rifle, and had only shot it 10 times that morning, and couldn't stand the recoil any more and had to go get his buddy to finish sighting in for him. He proudly showed me the rifle and it was a beautiful .300 Wby. mag.,clearly stamped in plain sight on the barrel. I asked to see the ammo he was using, and he handed me a box of R-P .300 Win.Mag. ammo. I told him it was not a real good idea to shoot that in the rifle, and explained why. His shoulders went back, he looked down his nose at me and shook his head and informed me that the expert at Sportsman's Warehouse probably knew a little more than I did, and he would take the expert's word. Well I reached into the scrap, and presented the brass from his morning's sport, carefully pointing out the split shoulders, his face turned red then cadaver white and his hands began to shake and he began to stutter badly. After a while, he regained control enough to apologize, and explain that he didn't reload, and had simply flipped the empties out on the ground without looking at them. Then he proceeded to call that "ëxpert"every foul name in the book plus some that weren't in the book until that very moment. When he wound down a bit I said "the mistake is yours, not his". Buyer beware!!! As has been stated above, these people are salespersons, and not "experts".

Many years ago I bought my first deer rifle in Columbus GA near FT Benning. The snooty sales guy owned the shop. He assured me that this Marlin Glenfield (POS had a birch stock) 30-30 was "The gun" to buy. Already sighted in just need to load and fire. I learned a lot from that exchange. Couple days later I took a 150 yd shot at a broadside standing doe facing my left aiming for the shoulder. My bullet hit her between the eyes. Never bought anything else from that shop and he went out of business within a year.

I bought a NE Pardner single shot, break action 20 gauge about 5 years ago as a handy little rabbit gun from one of the big retailers. After looking it over I placed it on the counter with the action open. The clerk closed the action, pointed it at himself and begins gathering the paperwork. I picked it up, broke the action and put it back down. He offered me a withering look, again closed the action with the barrel in his direction and started lecturing me about gun handling. I filled out my paperwork, paid for the gun as it was a good deal, asked to see his manager and told him they should have a training program for people who handle anything beyond groceries. The clerk wasn't a kid either.

One day at Wal-Mart I asked the woman if she had any .30-06 CoreLokt 150 grain ammo. There was a box of CCI Green Tag .22LR sitting above the tag where the .30-06 should be. She handed me the box and then stated the .30-06 price. I set the ammo down and asked her if she could get someone competent behind the counter. She acted indignant so I pointed to where it said .22LR and said "Can you read that to me?" and she did (which was a surprise, reading is a skill not many Wal-Mart employees possess) but still couldn't see the problem. Every time I go back to the gun counter, I leave immediately if she is there.

A little civil discourse here among gun guys will do more good than telling the other guy off. Let's all be willing to admit that we can learn more, and gently correct the mistakes a fellow shooter makes. When the chips are down, we will need each other. My Dad could correct a gun-challenged bozo in the nicest way, most of the time. If the fellow had too big an ego, like someone did above, he just walked away. Experience will take care of most willful ignorance. A sidebar with the manager will also be better than a shouting match with a macho 'salesman'.

Good topic...and relevant. I am feeling my age more and more, as I go back to gunstores, and have youngsters offering opinions about things I haven't asked them. I don't like plastic stocks, thank you. I actually like doubled barrel shotguns. I speak Parker, L.C. Smith, Sterlingworth, and W.C. Scott---but, only with knowledgeble gun guys. No need to belittle the fellow who does not have it right. They will learn...I hope and pray.

Blue

Del in KS, Any gun being "sighted in" is BS. Even if it truely was sighted in no 2 people will shoot it exactly the same, the variation might be minor but I know from trying to sight in guns for my kids, they can shoot a good grouping but it never hits exactly where mine do. Of course I'm picky, a 1/2 inch left at 100 yds is a problem to me! group has to be dead center and 1 inch high at 100 Yds. or it's adjust and fire 5 more. Yes I prefer 5 shot groups too.
You are lucky it hit between the eyes and not right thru the hams!

And we have a fairly good selection of gunshops here in central PA. Even the WallyWorld in Lock Haven has one good gun guy working in the sporting goods section, the rest are just counter people.
If you are ever in Mill Hall PA look into Millers Gun Shop. (I hope it's still there, haven't been that way in several years) Phil Miller is a well of firearms knowledge and has always been able to answer any of my questions, I hope he's still well as he is getting up there in years.
Clearfield PA has Grice Gun Shop and Bob's Army-Navy Shop, at Grice it depends on who you have serve you, most are gun guys but some have the "I'm better than you" attitude, or the "car salesman" attitude. But they at least do seem to know their guns, or when to ask another salesman to talk to you if they don't know what you are talking about.
Bob's is a true Army,Navy store, loads of military surplus gear and a decent selection of guns, they aren't huge but do have a nice inventory and the people who run the gun counter at least have basic knowledge of what they sell. They do lean towards more military type models but do have some of everything. And have a decent selection of 50 BMG Rifles as well. If you are into the big guns, I would love to get one but they are a little pricey for me, then there's that whole $2 a pop and up for ammo problem.......

I worked for 12 years as a Product Specialist in the gun department of "The World's Foremost Outfittter." The stories I could tell! This blog is beating up on gun salespeople pretty badly, but not all of the idiots are on the cash register side of the counter. The customers hardest to deal with are those that think they know it all and are too proud to take advice. Must be a macho thing. Phil is right. A knowledgeable and courteous gun salesperson is getting hard to find.
My background includes graduating from Trinidad's gunsmithing course, being an S.F. weapons sergeant,a reloader since 1958, a lifetime gun nut, and an FFL holder and gunsmith for the last 25-odd years. But every day I learn something new.

Hey MLH did the Supperposed have a Citori price tag as well? And if so are they still there.

My Daddy taught me everything that I know. I just wish he had taught me everything that HE knew.....

But one thing he taught me was to never talk down to the little man (or woman) or those less fortunate. There is scriptural basis for that and it always comes back around to get you in reverse blessings. I grew up in a very conservative family in a place at a time when it was acceptable to look down upon people of color. My parents, who were certainly not liberals or progressives by today's standards, forbade comments and ridicule of other human beings based on their situation or position in life. Best guidance I ever got, period.

Bella

Your comment is spot on. However, I am somewhat consoled (maybe not the right word) by the fact that those W-M employees have a job to go to and maybe will use that experience to move on to better things. I buy my toothpaste, an occasional magazine, and maybe scent removal stuff like Dead Down Wind when it is on sale after the season, but I do not shop there for most things including firearms.

I have compassion for the seniors (and drones - your word) working those jobs there, but always reflect on what circumstances brought them to that employment and what would they do if it weren't for that job. It's a tough life out there. I am thankful every day that I do not have to work in a place like that and hope that I don't ever have to.

flbobcat,

WOW what a blast from the past. My first 12 guage a pump was bought at Peterson's back around 1963ish. We lived in Tavares back then. Shot a lot of critters with that gun.

auburn_hunter

I can remember going to Simmons Sporting Goods in the 1960's when the were across the street from Long-Lewis in Bessemer on 2nd Avenue. Down the street was Bank Pawn Shop that had a mezzanine full of rifles and shotguns that could keep a kid like me entertained for hours!

Hey hunt_fish_sleep, I didn't say they sold factory rejects; I said they sold factory seconds. Learn reading comprehension. I won't even stoop to your level of name-calling. The guns Wal-Mart sells does not pass quality control where those guns would be sold to first-class gun stores. Will the guns Wal-Mart sells shoot? Sure, but you'll get factory imperfections in the stocks; bluing that isn't just right; etc. For the most part, the actions work the way they should, but if you're going to buy a gun for your gun collection, Wal-Mart isn't the place where you should be getting them from. Yes, they sell their guns cheaper because they buy wholesale. What does that mean? It means that the higher the volume of guns pumped out by the factory for Wal-Mart, the lesser quality they're going to be, because now, the factory is just slapping guns together without really giving them the quality control inspections, in order to meet the quota.

So before you start calling commenters on here names and insulting their intelligence, perhaps you should do your own research and wonder why someone would say such-and-such about certain stores.

For what it's worth, I'm not the only one here (or elsewhere) that has noticed the quality of guns at Wal-Mart is lacking the fit and finish of guns to be had a real gun stores.

ONinNY

Like my old Sergeant Major once told me after I flubbed something, "Boy, I've got more time in the chow line than you have on the planet. Now, go on, git!".

He He He

We have two very good guys at the Gander Mountain here in Madison,(well legally DeForest cause the idiots who makes the laws in Madison think if you can't sell handguns inside city limits, then no one will have them to try and use for crimes). There are a few more that have decent knowledge, but thankfully no real idiots.

Straw or proxy purchases are not legal. Forget the lawyering-up. If you are buying a gun, go in and buy it and then do with it what you will as long as that is legal after you take it home. The ATF is there to trap anyone they can into a violation. BTW, I'll never sell another handgun to someone except thru an FFL who can do the NICS check to make sure I have not delivered a weapon to a person not allowed to possess such a weapon. On second thought, I think I will never sell any of my few handguns!

While I always look to support the privately owned stores, that can be very hard. I grew up in central Pa and went to school at Penn State. While there I would always make the drive over to the same Miller's mentioned in Zernoid's post. Unfortunately I had two bad experiences that have kept me away ever since.

While still in high school I was looking for a range compensating reticle scope for a .223 Remington I was buying from the store. Through the whole deal I was talked down to and considered not buying there. But I chalked it up to grumpy old man syndrom and pressed on. Fast forward several weeks and much heart-ache and I learned a rather expensive lesson in ballistics and caveat emptor. The scope (a Springfield Armory model), was made for AR-style rifles with 1:9 twists. My new Tikka with it's 1:12 twist would not stabilize the 69-77 grain bullets the scope was set for. With all the questions I had asked, and all the attitude I took while making the purchase, I got the feeling Mr. Miller did not know as much as he let on, or just didn't care whether or not he was helping to set a customer up for success (and repeat business).

In the second, Mr. Miller's daughter, who runs the archery counter, set me up with my first bow and accessories. I spent a good deal of time and money at that store. After struggling mightily with archery for three years, I arrived at Camp Lejeune North Carolina and joined the Lejeune archery club. There I met one of the most amazingingly selfless teachers I have ever known. This older gentlemen took one look at my set up and identified that every aspect from draw length to size of the release didn't fit me. He then proceeded to spend the next week helping me try out and select a bow and gear that actually fit me. With the new bow and accessories that actually fit me, both my skills and confidence have skyrocketed.

Sometimes the local business don't do themselves any favors. I love the thought of supporting a small-town sporting goods store and gunsmith, but I won't go back to Millers and can't in good conscience recommend them to anyone else.

WA Mtnhunter -

You'll be happy to know that Simmons Sporting Goods is still operating over in Bessemer on 2nd Ave. Can't say about the pawn shop, but Long-Lewis is still in business (I guess only as long as Ford stays afloat with the gov't help). You may be sad to hear that Bessemer has gone downhill fast. When I go over there, it is strictly to go to Simmons, then I come back home.

Devil Dog, it's the old .223 vs. 5.56 discussion all over again, but in your case, you found out via the scope that the two bullets do not perform the same way.

Here's a Cheaper Than Dirt article about the whole thing:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MediaPages/ArticleDetail.aspx?mediaid=316

The simplest solution for you would have been to buy an AR-15 to be used as your varmint setup and mount the scope to it and shoot 55 grain bullets from that.

Thanks Ralph

The liability issue with our screwed up courts is what will prevent me from private sale of handguns. State law here does not forbid it. But in the liberal courts, Lord have mercy on your soul if you were to sell a convicted felon a handgun later used to kill someone. Regulatory statutes don't seem to protect from civil liability in our perverse system. In today's environment, I won't be selling, just buying...for a number of reasons.

Devil Dog

Thanks for the clarification. Of course different bullet weights at different speeds will not match up with a reticle calibrated for a given weight/velocity. So it seems that the rifle twist rate has simply driven you to a different bullet weight. Re-reading your post, it is clear now. Thanks.

The general comments @W-M and other box stores is true - I've wanted a part-time job in the firearms area, but being over 60, they have a BAD attitude toward us as if we're going to die on the floor - and personally I buy only their ammo in large quantites for target shooting and use the shells for reloading.

And although I've been shooting for over 54 years. most ofthe local gun stores don't want to hire me because I have a 7:30am-4pm job and part-timers aren't wanted. so my firearms knowledge almost goes to waste.

Plus, in CT, if you want to use an FFL, your place of business MUST be in a commercial zone (this was changed several years ago by anti-gunners to reduce the number of FFLs, and it did, by 66%). Theerefore, I have to find a merchant with a high-security sustem who will rent a small, secured room and receive shipments during the day. Tough way to make extra money, and I have no customers to service with my experience and desire to make sure they get what they want, especially new shooters and women, to keep our sport and way of life alive. It's a sad commentary.

Right on WAMtnhunter! There's no need to jump down some salesperson's throat. Sometimes I think when people do that sort of thing it's some sort of ego-trip compensation for being mostly a 3rd rater in a 2nd rate world.

Now, IMO when Sportsman's WH or whomever makes a baloney recommendation "shoot this .300 win mag from your .300 Wby mag" they need to be held accountable; at least you'd think some kind of basic instructions about matching firearms to ammo and vice versa would be nice. But in the end it's the buyer's job to know what he's buying.

I don't much shop at Wally World. Never liked their geopolitics. But the few times I've been in one everyone was friendly and reasonably knowledgable.

I bought a nice double at the local Sportsman's Warehouse last year. Everyone was friendly and helpful. I'd have bought it at the local mom and pop gunshop except that they didn't have a NEW, GOOD side-by-side available.

But I've done my part for the local gun store too. I've bought firearms there, and they're the place I go for most supplies, save powder for my frontloaders. I buy from them even when I can pay 5% less at some other place. I just like the shop and the people who work there, and respect their knowledge. I know I can ask about shooting for ex, because I have no formal training in handgun shooting, just took it up on my own, and their handgun experts will chat a while, ask questions, feed pointers and even asked me to demo my grip once, all without making me feel like I was wasting their time.

Let me guess you were at a Bass pro in California right?
What I want to know is where do they find these guys?

I just realized that I've been shooting for 40 years..man, I'm OLD! I have been fortunate to be exposed to many shooters who are for the most part knowledgable, and always opinionated. It's made the "research" phase a lot easier over the years. Often I got "help" even if I didn't ask for it :-).

I have no doubt that the uninformed are helping the unknowing all too often at the big stores, but I have had similar issues with small shop help myself.

I got a few lessons by paying full tuition in the school of experience, mostly in buying a shotgun. Gun fit, gun fit, gun fit. I had a "gunsmith" (and I use the term loosely) screw up a stock mounting a recoil pad. When I complained, he informed me first that he really didn't work on shotguns (he was a rifle guy), and then that "scratches like those little ones" were "normal" when a pad is added. Small shop expertise indeed. I can't recall asking for advice at any shop after those lessons- I talk to shooters, lot's of shooters. Then go shopping.

I think it's dangerous to generalize about retail help. One of my shooting buddies is definitely knowledgable on guns and shooting (he might just know "everything"), but his temperment leaves something to be desired when dealing with novices. But I would trust his advice. I hope I am more helpful to "newbies" because I see them as the future of the sports we all love. I always offer to take them shopping for guns, as I find the outing enjoyable and I spend a lot less at the end of the day that way...

Anybody want me to tag along while they buy that drilling or double rifle? Not that I know an Evans from a Holland and Holland from a Krieghoff. I'd be happy to go to the range and help you break in that new barrel (or an old barrel!). Just bring the ammo and the gun...I'm easy.

Dr. Ralph-
Your post reminds me of the Wally world clerk
who cheerfully sold me his last dozen boxes of CCI mini-mag hollow points and solomnly informed me that the solid points were "armor piercing." LMAO

I don't personally have much experience with lots of guns, but with the internet nowdays, so much information can be found about everything related to firearms. Everything from manufactures websites to forums to review archives are there. I think it's best to do some research before heading into a store since you can never be sure of the sales person. I once asked a salesman for a couple of boxes of 12 gauge target loads. When I asked for a particular dram equivalent he told me he didn't know what that meant. I'll give him credit for being honest rather than trying to tell me something that was wrong, but I'll trust my own knowledge, however limited because I did my homework.

Still though, how can you sell ammo to people and not know what they are? That seems dangerous.

I've stated many times, buy from your local Mom and Pops store. Chances the Pop knows guns well and you may pay a few bucks more, but you can return in not satisfied. Also, the mfgers do not ====repeat do not mfg the same quality firearms for Wally World, etc. as they do for Mom and Pops . If you doubt my statement, call Rem Arms and verify, that if you order l00 guns, they ( the mfg) will make it up to your specks. I found a gun I liked, but something about it did no look like a true Rem 700 that I had bugged the books months over. I jotted down some info and called Remington about this gun. I was told that that gun was a special order for the retail store as per their requirements. The gun sold for about 75.00 less than a true 700. Needless to say, i went to my local gun dealer and had him order what I wanted and paid him the few extra bucks, but I got what I wanted and it's proven most satisfactory and I will keep it as long as I;m able o hunt. At 73+ I have had a few guns and do know a tad about some of them but no expert at all. Just know the one;s I want and like.Shoot-um-straight and often

TheBest advice to any gun buyer is: Buyer beware of what you are buying.Make darn sure it's what you think it should be and that it is so. Once you buy a firearm from any of the big-box stores and take it to your car, it's yours. So by all means know what you are buying regardless of from WHOM. Shoot-um-straight amd often.

ssoooooo true

Don't know how I missed this blog. Good postings here. Reminds me of the many idiot stories I've experienced. Most recently, a fellow co-workers husband decided that since Mr. Obama got elected, he just had to get his CHL (Texas) and buy a couple of semi-auto handguns. Well, not to take anything away from our Texas CHL holders, but the qualifying is a joke. Safety is stressed, but accuracy is not. I shot 250 out of 250 with my Glock model 20, and on a bet, shot 242 weak-handed. Anyway, this co-worker's husband managed to qualify, pass the written test, and got his CHL. He proceeded to claim his knowledge of handguns to all that would listen. We all know the old saying, "Be careful what you ask for". Well he proceeded to have a DAD (that's for dumb-a** discharge) in his own bedroom. Blew out his bedroom window, and the 230 gr. .45 ACP round disentegrated off of his neighbors brick wall (according to him, disentegrated not richocetted). Now this Einstein wants to open his own gun range. God help us all.

With every passing Christmas or birthday, I seem to accumulate sweaters and ties as gifts. Though I appreciate the thought behind the gift, it is well known in the family that I am a shooter and, for the price of a sweater, I'd much prefer a bag of brass rifle or pistol cases. Spare me the socks, I can use small & large rifle/pistol primers. Thanks for the silk tie; it compliments two dozen others on the tie rack, but a box or Hornady, Barnes or Nosler bullets in any of a dozen calibers would be greatly appreciated.
I brought this up in candid discussion, and the responses I'd gotten from my wife and 23 year-old daughter distilled to, "I really don't like dealing with gun salesmen!" I thought that odd; I was a gun salesman 30+ years ago in four different operations, and I didn't understand the problem. One day, while shopping in an outdoor equipment store that sold firearms, my wife asked me to watch from a distance and her point would be clear. Indeed, she stepped up to the counter and a salesman politely asked if he could help. She answered that she wanted to buy some ammunition or reloading components for her husband, and in the dialogue that followed, the salesman treated her like an intellectual dwarf or mental midget. My wife earned a Bachelor of Science in Nursing and has 29 years of experience as an RN. She's a bright light, not a dim bulb.
My daughter is 23 and very attractive. When she steps into a gun shop, a salesman rarely makes eye contact...can't lift his vision above her breasts...something to do with gravity, I assume.
My son does shoot with me, knows what I use, but he's 17 and can't purchase rifle reloading components until he's 18. He now shops with his mother or sister to purchase things he knows I'll use.
As a customer, I've overheard salesmen give poor advice, seen the wrong reloading components and/or ammunition sold for a customer's rifle and intervened, or witnessed the effort to change the customer's interest to something that was in stock instead of something that had to be ordered, and these were primarily issues of inexperience or convenience on the salesman's part, or the expressed intention of the store's management (e.g., "Move what we have in stock."). By the time an individual has a wealth of experience, is well socialized and has a good grasp of customer service, he's often on a different career path. Let's face it, how many wealthy retail gun salesmen do we know?
Most salesmen are very well-intended and want satisfied customers. A good salesman enjoys the satisfaction and respect of being a knowledgeable resource and generates a loyal clientele, but I observe that less frequently now.
In a smaller shop, the owner can normally be expected to have the maturity and community support to be genuinely helpful, but the selection may be limited and it's unlikely the shop can purchase in sufficient volume to pass savings on to the customer. Tough business, and it's not getting any easier.
Shooting is an arcane subject, and we are required to be educated consumers, but we cannot be expected to know everything. We have to do our homework, ask for input from shooters whose knowledge and candor we respect, and forums like this are one way to explore those ideas and opinions. The price of equipment is rising and disappointments are expensive, so we do well to research more carefully.

wow, that is just criminal