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Petzal: Rifle Shooting's 10 Most Significant Developments of the Decade

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December 31, 2009

Petzal: Rifle Shooting's 10 Most Significant Developments of the Decade

By David E. Petzal

Generally speaking, it’s a shame we can’t--in the words of Dr. Hunter S. Thompson--take the past decade, pound it into a goddamn bottle, and set it adrift in the China current. But in the world of rifles, by and large, it’s been nothing but good news. Herewith, the most significant developments of 2000-2010, not in order of importance.

1. The transmogrification of the AR-15 into a bona-fide sporting rifle and an industry unto itself.

2. Hornady’s emergence as a major player and a major innovator in the ammunition biz.

3. Ten years ago, I thought that sporting optics had reached a state of perfection beyond which it could not go. Boy, was I wrong.

4. Long-range shooting comes of age. Four hundred yards is the new 300 yards, and 500 is on the way. We have the accuracy, the optical gear, and the ammo. Now all we need are enough ranges where you can  shoot at these distances.

5. The resurgence of the lever-action. Has anyone noticed that Marlin is building lever guns that give away nothing to bolt-actions?

6. Rifle of the Decade—the Marlin XL-7. The best working gun, for the least money, in the history of Western Man.

7. The general level of accuracy in factory rifles. I can name you four, for under $500, that will shoot MOA or better.

8. The Supreme Court’s Keller decision.  Article II lives!

9.  Savage, which is changing from a company that makes inexpensive rifles that shoot very well to a company that makes very sophisticated rifles that will shoot with damn near anything regardless of price.

10. Barack Obama and his coterie of gun haters, who have sold more firearms, ammo, and components than even Bubba Clinton.

Happy New Year!

Comments (90)

Top Rated
All Comments
from cbanks wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Another decade item, Dave--the development and marketing of the short fat breed of cartridges. Great for single shots, dumb for repeaters. But a marketing triumph!

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Quality deer management has also come into vogue resulting in a flood of trophy Whitetails this decade.
Dave, you sold me on ER Shaw MK VII now I'm just waiting for the gun and the 8 month wait seems to be taking forever. We are having a tough time deciding on a scope. I can get a huge discount on Leupold, Burris or Bushnell scopes. Which one would you want on your 22-250 with heavy barrel?

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

To Del in KS: There is no doubt in my military mind that I would get a Bushnell Elite 6500 4.5X-30X with the mil dot reticle.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from jjas wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I wonder how Jim Zumbo and President Obama feel about their being responsible for a lot of the ARs success over the last couple of years....

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Kansas243 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

i would have to disagree with point #6. I was sitting in a field with my buddy when he lined up on a doe a 80 yards with his XL-7 in .30-06. he pulled the trigger and "click". nothing. he "fired" the rifle 5 times (each with a new round) and nothing went. we got back to the cabin that night, the rifle warmed back up, and it worked just fine. thing was, it wasn't even that cold out - maybe 20, probably closer to 30 though. It was a great rifle at the range (and yes he kept it clean), but it doesn't matter if it doesn't work in the field.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Kansas243 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

oh yeah - its not Article II either, its Amendment 2 - big difference. Article II is all about presidential powers. I don't think there has been much enchroachment on those lately.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from huntslow wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Great List! An addendum to #4 - We still have very few long range SHOOTERS! Ranges are one reason but I still see VERY few shooters that shoot well at short range. I also know a number of big game outfitters and guides who bemoan the shooting ability of clients!

Happy New Year!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

YA'KNOW DAVE, WHEN YA'SAY THOSE AS TOP 10, YOU KNOW YOUR GETTING OLD!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from budman wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I have to agree with #4 as significant. before people missed at 300 yards. now they miss at 400. ;)

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

#2 is true. Just listen to Hornady's telephone message and you know you're not dealing with a typical company!!!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

DEP-
I would classify the emergence of the AR-15 as a sporting rifle as more of a transition than a transmogrification, but who wants to argue semantics? I can't figure out why the M-1 and M-14 never captured the hunting population's fancy, especially since they both used viable hunting rounds.
Hornady is just taking their rightful place in the scheme of things, I've used their stuff for at least 25 years.
Don't care much for the Marlins, either lever or bolt, as they have not seen fit to produce a left handed bolt gun, and they have that ding blasted "lawyer" safety on their levers.
AMEN! on the Supremes, although I was outraged that the decision was 5 to 4.
Ditto on Savage, they are the most gun for the money on the market today, and have the best "out of the box" accuracy of any major manufacturer.
As to the obummer thugs, surely they must be taking notice that the American Public is arming themselves? Or are they so enraptured with themselves, that they think We The People are not wise to they the government's long range scheme?
HAPPY NEW YEAR! LIVE LONG, HUNT MUCH, AND WRITE FREQUENTLY!

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

10 items all worth making note of Dave.
Now, how about giving us a "My(Dave's)Top Ten Big Game Tropies" with pictures of course!
Do you mind showing them off?

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Del, with a 30x scope how are you going to see the 'dogs' through the mirage on a hot day? I'd go 16-20 max.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

#2 - Their bullets notwithstanding, I have never had Hornady factory shoot worth a crap and their Frontier brass is cruddy, stained, and unfinished.

#4 - Bubba and his fellow range monkeys have not improved their shooting skills in the past decade either. Those long range shooting infomercials sponsored by Gunwerks passed off as hunting shows make me ill.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Meant to say 'Hornady factory ammunition"... sorry

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from hjohn429 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I deffinately agree with #5. I love the Marlin lever-guns. They are increadibly accurate. My dad's Marlin XLR in 35 Rem. will clover-leaf at 150 yards if we do our part. They look coll too....;)

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

crm3006,
i think the M1 and M14 never made it because they came at the time when many of the 'classics' were still around and when the influence of the older generation of gunwriters was still strong. back then, Jack O'Connor was writing about Mausers and Model 70's, and many samples of those rifles were around. now, they're mostly gone, or too expensive.

today, even editors like Greg Rodriguez are known AR fans, and they write favorably of it, and use it.

also, many younger hunters are familiar with the AR thru movies, TV shows, first-person-shooter video games and the daily footage of soldiers and marines carrying the weapon in the war on terror. these same soldiers and marines would probably accept the AR as a hunting weapon once they go home, just as veterans of WW1 embraced the bolt action as a hunting weapon as a result of their experience with the 1903 Springfield.

and yeah, the AR is kind of cool, too. for all of its faults, it has also influenced weapons design everywhere in the West. Every infantry rifle in the free world is somehow "modular" now, just like the M16.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

what the hell is trans mogrification?! dave, you kill me!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

is it just me or is savage getting more expensive and weatherby getting less expensive? is that a result of one listening and the other getting too big?

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

i think it's worth mentioning that the decade saw the reemergence of the Mauser 98 or some Mauser-type action, often in very expensive and slightly modified forms, from companies like Serengeti, Montana Rifle Company and Empire, to name a few.

the decade also saw the revival of elephant busting rounds in very expensive rifles (see above brands/names) that will probably sit in display cases and never be fired in anger at elephants. the .505 Gibbs, never a common caliber even in the golden days of the safari (the 1920's, post WW1, pre-Depresseion) is now being made in greater numbers than it's ever been made. I never even knew the .505 existed until Phil Shoemaker wrote about it in the late 90's.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

jamesti,
if you mean the Weatherby Vanguard (aka Howa 1500) yes agreed, it's a great value. Reviews, including those of Mr Petzal, are all favorable. Usually very reliable, accurate, well bedded, good trigger (or at least not bad), and not bad to look at.

if only they made it in left hand.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from elmer f. wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

isn't it funny, that when the anti gun people come to power, that we gun people respond so nicely! LOL! if baraks oblama was a gun salesman, he would be earning a 6 figure salery! not to shabby for a guy who hates guns.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bella wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Obama hasn't taken any guns, nor has he announced any plans to do so, However the Hype put out by his spoilsport opponents, that sure as heck sells guns. When democrats lost we bided our time until we could win another election. When Republicans loose an election they tell folks to buy every gun in sight. Doesn't sound like the right is particularly interested in social stability, if it is arming it's followers. I support the 2nd amendment and have more guns than most people I know, but my range is only 50 yards. I have no where to shoot an AR and nothing to shoot it at, what would I possibly need one for?
I have a .22 for varmints, a 12 gauge for hunting and a .45 for "exigencies". An AR would put holes clean through the house! I admit I still would like to have an M1 carbine, but we are talking a world of difference betwixt an AK or an AR and a .30 Carbine. I just like to shoot, I admit ARs are fun to shoot, but the hype is only scaring people to serve petty politics.

-3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Go a head and get an M1 Carbine, I did and they are a hoot to shot, a bonus for me was a bang flop on a button buck at 100 yards on opening day. He is in my freezer now.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

ahead* shoot*, need more coffee!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from JohnR wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

transmogrification
noun- to change the appearance or form of something, especially in a grotesque or bizarre way.
There you go. I had to look it up too.
I would argue the point that "hype" is scaring people to serve petty politics. I will concede that both political parties (assisted by the media) attempt to use hype to further their respective political agendas. Unfortunately the hype usually associated with firearm issues and the 2nd Amendment is predicated by historical examples of our government attempting to reign in the 2nd Amendment.
Two big examples: the "Gun Control Act of 1968", The "Lautenberg Ammendment" to same, the 1994 Assault Weapon Ban, The Brady Bill and more I do not have the time to research.
The conflict concerning firearm ownership does indeed promote a measure of hype on both sides of the issue however hype doesn't ban firearm ownership; politicians with a proven track record of hostility to gun owners do.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from duckcreekdick wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

It wasn't hype from the conservative right that caused the run on AR's, powder and primers. It was Eric Holder and his like-minded flunkies and supporters. You really do need an AR, Bella! Happy New Year!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Bella:

Nobody told us to buy guns. Obama has been too busy dishing out pork by the trillions and taking over health care to bother with something as trivial as an armed citizenry. We know that eventually he will get around to the small matter of disarming us, however, so we proceed accordingly. He is the most liberal man ever to occupy that office over the most liberal legislative branch we've ever seen; liberal as you are, as a thinking person who has been around the block at least once, you just can't believe that they won't come after our gun rights eventually.

+9 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

O Garcia-
You may be right about the gun writer influence. I trained with the M-14 and grew to love it's accuracy and reliability. My experience with the M-1 was from other people's firearms, but I was impressed with the accuracy.
I never could get fully impressed with the M-16, E-1, A-1
or Car -15. They were accurate enough, even out to 500 meters, but not reliable, nor did I like the .223 for it's intended purpose. They remain, to me, a high maintenance POS on a plastic stock, shooting a mouse sized round.

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I still think that ammo improvements are the biggest story in the last decade, because they make the MOA rifles and the all purpose lever guns possible. But you have a point with the ARs, Dave.

If instead of characterizing ARs as antigunner fodder, Jim Zumbo had written, "Much as I enjoy shooting ARs, I don't hunt with them. Compared to sporting rifles they are noisy to operate, heavy, much more expensive, and are not available in the best calibers for elk," he'd still be one of America's most beloved gun writers, because that would have been true at the time.

But now that AR-15s can be had in deer calibers they are all the gun most of us need, and there are at least a couple of eight pound AR-10 types in .338 Federal or .300 SRUM that'd work for elk. You can even get them left-handed! My only reason for not having one is I can't afford them. Obscene what some of them go for.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

The AR-15 is not and never will be the most popular gun in deer camp, if it even shows up. The calibers it's chambered for are either too small(.223 and .308 are tiny compared to .30.06), or way too expensive(compare a box of 6.8spc to a box of .30-06!), or too hard to find( I've never seen 6.8 spc in a walmart). For the gun to ever be popular in the deer woods you would have to take all the others away.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Are you guys taking up money for flowers for Clay, didn't see anything from him latly. Is he gone hunting?

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

More liberal bs from Bella regarding the "messiah". Defend him at all costs till it is too late, except that the rest of us who see him for what he and his cronies are, won't let it get "too" late. The election box is calling and waiting.

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from Carney wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Observations:

Dave, apparently our literary influences are similar.

Hunter S. Thompson taught me to be an absolute psycho through his "Fear & Loathing" books. Fortunately I got straightened out before I came to the same tragic end that he did -- even if it was, just in the nick of time.

Not sure about you, Dave, but I learned all about "transmogrification" from Calvin and Hobbes. For those of you who are uninitiated you can use the handful of strips at this website for a tutorial:
http://members.shaw.ca/newsong/calvin.html

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

sarg LOL!

HERE I AM TO SAVE THE DAY!

YA"BUDDY!

HEY DAVE" NOT BAD DAR SHOOTER!!!!

Let’s see now? Where do I begin, Dave made some pretty good top 10’s that went against his grain!
I’ll just scroll to the top!

#1: David Petzal look at me Bro’ you OK? Inside joke, David doesn’t like magazines especially detachable. Just remember folks the AR are a coming and they are catching on!

AR-15’s with a 1-9 twist shooting 6 grain Nosler Partitions makes one hell of a deer round!

#2: Steve Hornady finally stopped playing around or running of his inheritance money from Sir Joyce Hornady and it’s about time! Told that boy back in 91 we needed a 250 grain Soft Point in 338 and he wrote back they had no plans for production any time soon!

#3: Sporting optics? That’s no joke and Leuplold better get there nose out of the arm pits, Sightron is coming on strong!

#4: Long-range shooting comes of age? Where have you been David! Back in the 60’s I called it skill and still do!

#5: Marlin is building lever guns that give away nothing to bolt-actions? Close but no cigar! Can’t handle ultra loads and your still limited to limited bullets to use unless you shoot a Savage Model 99!

#6: Marlin XL-7? Remington and the rest of the bunch need to get off the golf course and get busy!

#7: O” I love my 03-A3 30-06! Besides, I know a many under 400 which we got ½ MOA including the old Marlin 30-30!

#8: There is a Storm a coming, HEAR OUR THUNDER!

#9: Savage another one along with Marlin, but I wish they done a better bedding job on my M10 Muzzleloader, sloppy job!

#10: Barack Obama? Not only he is the greatest salesman of the century, remember he tried to sale the Military scrap to China and got nailed for it!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

#1: I forgot to add the 6.5/264 cal's coming on strong with the ballistics of big bores!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Most of your top 10 are correct. I do think Ammo has come a long way in our ability to shoot futher and more accurate. AS for new guns, I love my MArlin XL7 and it did not break the bank. Very eliable and if you do your part will do it's. Along gun lines, Rem did a good job with the 700 CDl other than too heavy trigger. With a gun Gun Smith set the pull at 3 lbs and you got a really great hunting gun for anyy NA game. Scopes, never will beat the Nikon for clarity ands mid-range price. All my hunting guns carry the Monarch. SAvage has come a long way in 2 yrs, they now make a wonderful, beautiful firearm and especially I like the 3 position slide safety. Their top line looks like a 700 but much cheaper. Savage has always made a goodc, cheap gun,but the resale never made it, hopefully now it will. Only their "Savage" 22 mag and the 336 sold well on secondary market. BAck to scopes, when they flood the market with a 60 or 70 mm obj lens, then you gonna need new bases and mounts. The gun will look like a stove pipe been added. A scope can only accept so much lght and when it gets dark, regardless of obj. lens it willl not matter if you can;t see horns r not. So untill the economy improves, I will use my present fiearms, just need more places to hunt and time to do so.So for the AKR's to each his own, me, I prefer a hunting gun to look like one.%00 yds is a long shot, too long for most shooters. I never thought I could pass 300 yds, but did kill some nice animals in past 3 yrs at 345 -325 yds.As I've stated many times, pratice is the key with a reliable firearm and corect ammo. Shoot-um-straight and often.Hey, her at home did kill with B/P gun a giant Buck with 10 points, which this part of the country 8 is tops. I also believe that seasons will be longer and moe B/P guns will be sold. They now improved to point they as accrate as a centerfire. My only draw back is that 2nd shot. But we suppose to kill cleanly our first shot,right? The 4 in 1 reloader by CVA is a great 2nd shot option, plus a few cleaning patches moist in a plastic bag is handy for reloading,especially if using the Powerbelts which I do, in 245 grs plastic tip.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Coop,
Glad to see/read you got your top 10 responses in. I got slammed because I used the "B" word on one of them.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

As much as I'm not a fan of long range "hunting", you can just smell the synergy steaming off of the new Savage Long Range Hunter, and I want one anyway. It's got plenty of aforementioned "hot items" going for it - it fits the long range trend, it's made by the hottest and most accurate firm there is, and has a 6.5-.284 chambering. Should be a big seller. You're getting a lot for under a grand. Hope 6.5 ammo and brass becomes more available/cheaper.

Savage still makes those good shooting inexpensive rifles, too. They're just doing it all these days, including putting most everyone else to shame.

Great nod on the rifle of the decade. It really deserves the title and should theoretically stir up the market more than it has. My only complaint? Eyepiece clearance by the bolt handle.

Also nice to have Winchester back in some legitimate capacity, making rifles as good as the old ones, and stateside to boot.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Hey Jim LOL!

Welcome to the club!

As for these Extraterrestrial Scopes on rifles, anything higher than 12x you start to have problems.

I have a Nichols 3x9 wide field scope I didn't pay much for but it sure is clear and one hell of a tack driver on my 22-250! Started to replace it with one of my Leupold but if it isn't broke? DON"T FIX IT!!!!!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I MOOSED UP!

#1 AR-15’s with a 1-9 twist shooting 6 grain Nosler Partitions makes one hell of a deer round?

AR-15’s with a 1-9 twist shooting 60 grain Nosler Partitions makes one hell of a deer round!

#2: Steve Hornady finally stopped playing around or running "OUT" of his inheritance money from Sir Joyce Hornady and it’s about time! Told that boy back in 91 we needed a 250 grain Soft Point in 338 and he wrote back they had no plans for production any time soon!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from JohnR wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Just a note to add to Clay's post above; Winchester used to make a moly coated 64 grain power point plus cartridge in .223 that was the cat's meow for deer. It was rated CX2 on the box for light to medium skinned animals (Winchesters's deer rating). Thankfully I bought a few boxes because Winchester discontinued them. I sent them an e-mail regarding the disposition of said bullets. Winchester's reply was simply we no longer produce that cartridge. It was a great .223 round!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Roost323 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

great list.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from yohan wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

And ole 4 1/2 "pp the sawed off little "poet lariat" who we now think lives not far from lake Texoma ,.maybe one nearby town in Texas or one nerby in Oklahoma ,..not far from the lake,..
opens his political mouth again ,.
Getting closer little man .

-3 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Waiting for "Ten Predictions for 2010," Dave. That goes for Phil, too.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Zermoid wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

crm3006

M-1 and M-14, I can understand the M-1, as it cannot be "topped off" or even reloaded unless it's empty, but the M-14 would be a great Hunting Rifle, I just wish semi's were legal in PA.

And the "lawyer" safety on their lever actions has one good use, while emptying the gun, other than that it's off and hammer is on the first click.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Zermoid-
Long, long ago and far, far away, a group of trainees sat
around an old wooden barracks in Ft. Polk, LA, and re-designed the M-14 into the perfect weapon for jungle warfare, which we were being trained for. Umpteen years later, Springfield Armory comes out with the Scout Squad
and SoCom models, short barrels, composite stocks, most of what we had wanted changed. Makes you wonder, don't it? I have one of the Scout Squad models, (20" barrel), and would not hesitate to use it for deer or hogs, with a 150 or 165 gr. load that would shoot accurately. I would use the little 5 round mag, as it makes a slimmer profile on the weapon. Only drawback to the M-1A, it is as noisy to load as a passing freight train! As to the "lawyer safety", I just have no use for it, having carried and used Winchester 94s and 92s for 40+ years and never had a problem emptying them when necessary.
Why no semi-autos in PA? Are pumps legal?

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from crm3006 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Here comes old yo, again letting that alligator mouth overload the gnat sized a$$. Watch what you write, yo.

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from MLH wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Reading though your list you have me shaking my head up and down and thinking a bit. I'll just comment on Hornady - until I read a recent article on their Superformancce rounds I didn't think much about it. But looking back they have introduced many USEFUL ammo innovations - the .17HMR, .204 Ruger (I know you prefer the .223 but shooting this round is fun), and FTX bullets are my favorites. The .375 Ruger also has my attention (I am entralled by the .35 wildcats off the cartridge).

Lots more to their Superformance rounds than I thought. Higher velocities, lower pressures, reduced recoil and muzzle blast ... at lower prices than their light and heavy magnum loads, which the new ammo will replace. Proprietary powder blends and a lot of testing got them here. We (reloaders) wouldn't be able to do the same unless we have access to a ballistics lab and a lot of pull with powder manufacturers. Sure, we can get high velocities but at a price in powder volume, high pressure, recoil, and muzzle blast. I am jealous - these guys have fun and challenges developing these new loads while getting paid for it ... and they are earning their keep.

Makes one wonder what's coming over the next decade. Happy New Year!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from RileyDog13 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

My #1 is the internet. It smoothed out pricing and availability of rifles across all markets. But mostly in providing information on cartridges and bullets. People seem to understand ballistics and capabilities better –less likely to use a 7 mag at 300 but call a 270 inadequate at 200. Hunters love to learn and share and their experiences now significantly augment professional writers. There are thousands of opinions –chatrooms, comment sections as this, product reviews on Cabellas, Midway, etc –and the technical understanding of laymen and number of shared experiences are remarkable. Bullet construction and specialization have blossomed. But after the past decade, the average hunter can draw on thousands of field experiences. If willing to learn, can make more informed and ethical equipment and shot decisions than the most experienced hunter or writer of a decade ago.

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from MLH wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

kansas243 - might suggest to your friend to disassemble the bolt and clean every part thoroughly with oil and cleaner, and then apply a very light or dry lube. Guns come from the factory covered with anti-rust compound that must be removed before shooting. There might be some excess around the firing pin.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

yohan, yo Ol'Fart, what's going on BRO!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

MLH was right on. If the Marlin bolt rifle malfunctioned when cold at a mere 20-30 deg F and functioed at a warmer day, say 60-70 deg F, then there is something wrong with the lubrication, cleanliness, and maintenance of the rifle, not the design and constuction. metal does not expand and contract significantly at those temperature ranges. JMHO. Just clean it!

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from KJ wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I think Savage's development of the Accu-trigger, which is now copied/modified/used in some form by Marlin and others, is one of the more significant developments of the decade. Just my opinion.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Ah ya , the mini me ( mouth ) that roared.
begs to whimper cry an simper.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from yohan wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Yo!~ clay what up ??
Go to Petzals top working rifle ~ I said "a nice " about you ,.. YUK YUK
Consevative &^&&^^%%!!! Republican #$$$^%$#@@@!!!
that you are,..
When it is,. it is. : )

Been busy ,.. but also so dam cold in upper midwest now,. its keeping me indoors, which aint easy this time of year.
Cause I get ( or start to ) cabin fever about now.
Usually by mow skiing on weekends. but its just brutal last few days. Cleaned every gun in the place twice .
All kinves and broad heads like mini razors ,.
Might have to buy myslef another knife tho. YUK YUK
Guy I talked with in Norway says ("Helle" Jeager) about as good as it gets for the money ( laminated steel )

Also about last of Jan 1st o f Feb when every on else is running for "WARM"
I used to "haul back in" up in WI & Minnesota
Using x coutry skis ( and snowshoes) all by my damn self,. pull a toboggan with gear. Get in thee 3-4 miles. Then hope it would snow to cover entry tracks so wardens on snow machines didnt know I was there
,..Camp for a few days (three nights usually enough YUK YUK but did stay 4 once) cruse around on skis
..and hunt small stuff maybe ice fish .
1st time just to see I could do it.
Then a couple guys came with me,. it was a blast
So we kept doing it . But now the guys who would go before say their too old ,.to many aches and pains etc etc.
My physical conditon still good no real aches and pains,.
pretty fit ,.but with 60 in site now,.. have people telling me don't go alone.
Which is slightly amazing to hear.
Since most everything I ever did,.. was alone
Until ,. I did it . Then others wanted to get on the band wagon
Truth is if it wasnt so G D !! cold I would go alone ,..
But if I froze to death who would prod that little pin headed crm 4 1/2 inch pp yuk yuk

So Clay, am I imagining this or did you mention shooting smokless powder in a muzzle loader?
IE:with some amazing ballistics ..
To far back,. don't remember post almost like a dream
However ,..if im not ( actually ) dreaming,. would you mind postng some basic's on that?

Best

Yohan

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from yohan wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Clay ~ one other thing
As something of a springfield rifle historian
(or apparently so) I seek your "take" on this .

In my fledgling months in the big green machine because my vison was 20-10 ( actually they figured better but had no oway to test beyond that ) and,..
that I could shoot "something " above average.
It was suggested to me that with proper training and commitment,. myslef and another guy could
sit in a trees at night with a Rem 700.308 a starlight scope and snipe Charlie to our hearts content.
I politley declined that notion as I have an aversion to staying awake all dam night in a tree. I suggeted ground recon before that ,. but they "the machine" thought I had "authorty issues" and didn't think at that point I was propertly commited ( ya think ??)

However certain talk at one point turned to what was ( as I recall) the WWII springfield sniper rifle.
Sporting rather than the normal four lands an gooves only two precisley cut and polished ,.capable of dusting "krauts" at 1000 yds with a relative degree of regularity .I asked my father about this. who stated that yes indeed ( well,. more like Yaw Yaw ) such a rifle did exist,. But I know little more and am curious.
You got any more on this springfield sniper smoke pole circa WWII subject?

Thnx Yohan

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Jim Zumbo's case was a tragic one I think. he expressed an opinion, something not that much different from what Cactus Jack did very often (and often in a not so gentle way) in his time, except Zumbo did it in the instant feedback/anonymous handle world of the internet.

Although this happened well before the AR-15 fiasco, I think he wrote in OL in 2001 that he wasn't much of a gun nut, but more of a one-gun guy. He shot the same M70 .30-06 for 20 years, then for the next 15 years an A-Bolt in 7RemMag. He probably wasn't aware that sporter versions of the AR-15 existed. but I'm guessing.

I'd probably draw a lot of flak from saying this, but i still think his contributions were far more valuable than whatever damage he may have caused OL, and that OL should have given him more support.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

O Garcia

I won't be renewing my subscription to OL nor buying anything Remington due to how they dumped Zumbo.

And by the way, AR 's are not welcome in our camp either, unless you bring one to shoot coyotes after we are done hunting deer and elk.

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from focusfront wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I agree with O Garcia. Zumbo was a good hunting writer and I miss his stuff. Maybe he'll be back someday.

Zumbo's problem was that he, very innocently, dinosaured out. Nobody would have batted an eye if he'd made his comments in 1972; the shooting world changed and he didn't see it.

And the shooting world has changed. When I was a kid nobody dressed up like Daniel Boone and hunted deer with flintlocks; nobody dressed up like Wyatt Earp and shot tourneys against guys dressed like Buffalo Bill. I know a bunch of guys who dress like commandos (except for the blaze orange vests and hats) and use military rifles to hunt with. It's all good because it's all shooting; as long as they have good manners in the woods, they are all our friends.

Who knows, as us old guys die off, in ten years the standard deer rifle may be an AR in 6.8 SPC with a rangefinder scope that automatically resets the crosshairs to compensate for range. I just hope I can afford the future, if God wills that I live until it gets here.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Wa Hunter,
I dumped my subsription to OL. I don't like editor John Snow either and let him know.

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from Quahog wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter, focusfront, et al,
It's difficult for me to boycott OL or Remington for what they did to Zumbo after his "Black Rifle" comments and opinions in a hunting mag. I mean what response could I expect if I went to the local baptist men's prayer breakfast arguing for papal infallibility ?
Isn't this what big business is all about --- the bottom line ?

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from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Jim from Mo

I agree Zumbo was at the least a mistake,.
viewed another way a travisty ,..cuaght up in the socio -economic eddys of the finacial river of the gun buis.
After some consideration it's clear, little more than timing and corperate pressure were deciding
factor (s) .
IE: Rmmingtion and parent companys appraisal of possible affect on bottom line.
Thusly with no small amount of coin stuck in the AR rifle,.(marketing) not to mention tooling and R & D .
Its simple, money and marketing,sales and revenues point North.
Having much less ( if anything) to do with the emotion and nostalgia attached to hunting and shooting by the people we call sportmen / hunters / shooters .

Unless you count,related and dependant businesses
IE This blog,. this magazine and others like it.
Who are a conduit and powerful promoters of a gun buis adgenda.
As previously stated,. the emotion the meories the friendships and traditions developd by the hunting culture is a perfect cmoufalge for a bottom line bisness ( small arms ) weather for hunting deer or people.
The gun company sees a market,. semingly, starting out with a whole lotta people,. who have never been shot at harboring a slight rambo envy complex.
Said demographics look promising ,. so they go for it.
Verily I promise ,.. one gun / hunting writer jacking said jaws at the wrong time,.. tossed under the wheels of the tank means squat to them.

Had O Connor or Keith or ( John Jobson F % S circa 1950'%60's,) or Page said the same ( given the times) nothing would have happened.
Unless they were promoting the "arms of the enemy"
(Germany Japan ) not long in the wake of WWII and Korea.
Which in my recolection would have gone over like a lead balloon.

Truth be told I actually found O Connor just a tad on the snooty pontificating side ,. even as a young reader.
And tell me old Elmer didnt have an opinion set in stone

That however was over 40 years ago and 110 whitetails later . Not to mention a few other four legged critters

What I suspected then I have proven ( at least to myself ) now.
Meaning it never fails,. and it will always be like going to the BIG APPLE,..
If "one" does not pay attention to what is going on around "one",.. prior to "Jacking ones Jaws" it is much more likley than not.
Someone waiting for "one" to make a "jaw jacking" mistake is gonna take "ones" wallet and eat "ones" lunch after which,.. "one" will get "ones" A$$ kicked.
Making "one" right or wrong,.( usually the jaw jacker) look like a damn fool.

I have in my years never seen it not happen.
Where gun writers and other editorilizing individuals sooner or later get a view of themslves.
As floating high in the water and untouchable based on the opinion of a few ,..yet sooner or later run hard aground on the quiet consideratrion of self contained thinking individuls who are not in the habbit of idolizing.
Who repect opinions but are adverse to more than a certain amount of BS in one year

In my world,.. if I let that happen im the fool

As to John Snow ,.. see what he does ,.. like a young quarter back ,.. gonna be some mistakes ,if they are not too big and not too frequent he grows into the Job ,if not he' will be gone.

Ps the same company that owns OL also owns F & S

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

I pretty much agree with everything except #1.

I call it the "wannabee-ification". You sacrifice the dependability, simplicity, and range of ammunition (so far) for the coolness of carrying an "Army gun".

Even an above poster makes the remark of it catching on from movies, TV, and video games.

To quote from one Colonel's book: "Its high rates of fire in the jungle environment had a larger impact on increasing American morale than on actually inflicting enemy casualties."

That should make you want one.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Yohan

I completely (well, almost) agree with your assessment posted above. I personally like Jim Zumbo. He is a hunter/writer and not necessarily a gun nut that is hip to the latest fashions in armament. He made a little blurb that was slightly out of school and P.O.'d all the AR fans and black rifle looneys.

And who is at the helm at OL; Editor-in-Chief Todd Smith or Executive Editor (whatever that is) John Snow? I had just renewed my subscriptions to F&S and OL on a 3 year deal when the Zumbo thing blew up in 2007. Since Gentleman Jim is gone and McManus is no longer the back page writer, I see no socially redeeming value in OL. I just got my renewal notice from both -- the OL went thru the office shredder. F&S to follow if they do something as cheesy.

Happy New Year!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Quahog

LMAO! If you went to the local Baptist men's breakfast, at least you would be with the right crowd!

WMH

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from billkahle wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Petzel, December 31, 2009

Number 8 on the list: Supreme Court's Keller decision.
Should it be Supreme Court's MILLER decision?

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from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter
I ralize being the concervative liberal that I am you can not agree 100% ,.if for no other reason than based on the possbility Im wrong YUK YUK .
Which is OK ,. you do however "mostly agree" whick is good

As to Snow,.. weeeeell,.. young and ( possibly) Cocky
or assumes the masses are simply not brilliant and or possibly unwashed ,or both ,.
according to the laws and precepts of the invisible kingdom of Snow

Made that mistake myself once,.. but only once, casue it cost me.

As to McMannus were I steering the OL boat ,. I would have come up with considerable coin of the realm to keep that venue going.
Which I consider a mistake unless of course old Jack Mc had simply had enough ,.
Then again who the H am I ?,..
Other than a reader of over 50 years.

As to Gentleman Jim my take is Mr C was for some years becoming more and more brittle,. and his time had come.
Nothing against him perosonally other than the change in attitude more and more over the past few years ,..
IE: If it isn't a custom walnut stock with hand cut checkerig blessed by the stock fairy who he knows personally and occasionally drinks with.
Metal work based on a blueprint job he perosnally had approved with minor amounts of the huanting fragranace of Africa
IE:elephant poop in the checkering .
Not up to gentleman Jims standards,.
Remeinicent to me of the slightly snooty and pontificating attitude of the man who's position he assumed many years ago,

Thusly, as I personally had previously pontificated
,.. with the a-typical exceptions
many and or most get a little "on the horse" snooty ,.one way or the other sooner or later.

If they back it up a notch or two Im willing ( alway am ) to let things slide to some degree.
But like you,. I can and will dump this rag in a NY minute if it gets too foolish.
Next few months and years should be intersting in this regard in this venue.
Have decided however (hearing your take) not to renue OL.Give it a year or two ,..see what happens.

Best regards

Yohan

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Yohan

This time I completely agree, your first sentence notwithstanding !! LOL

I also think OL gave Pat McManus the fast shuffle, just not as brutally as Zumbo. And our beloved D. Petzal is now "retired" and freelancing? Oh well, the times are a changing, nothing however good stays the same.

BTW, you and crm3006 crack me up. You sure one of you is not a pseudonymn for the other? LOL

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from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtn hunter
Good to hear there is levity beteen the lines IE: concervative / liberal
I could really get going ,.. on this right v/s left thing ( and I do ) but I dont have time now
and you seem like a guy who thinks rather than just reacts ,.so suffice to say I think we need change and I hope the big O ( and not Opera) can help us get there ,..on that for to day nuf said.

The unvarnished truth is a long time ago in land far far away ,.where most were necessarily possessed of small arms A little mutt very similar in profile ( maybe same guy ) to ole crm 4 1/2 inch needle PP.
nearly got me and two other guys whacked .
The only reason that guy didn't die in that place on that day (from friendly fire) is that murder even in combat zone is aginst the law. Even if its murder by slapping some one to death for beiong an idiot yuk yuk
It was close,.. so close,.. I still get pi$$ed just thinking about it .

That guy ole 4 1/2 ( if he is a guy and not a woaman ) aint NOTHIN like me.
From my section in the bleachers its no joke
words Im thinking here are ommitted
Only for fear the langly complex pick it up and show up outside the building with a swat team. YUK YUK sorta .

Best

Yohan

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from Quahog wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WMH,
"Cheesy" is a complimentary way of stating that Zumbo was treated like Sh%#! Please forgive my attempt @ humor regarding Baptists and the Pope - everyone is aware of their great affinity for each other.
Thought that BACO'S handling of the "made in America" Winchester deal deserved a kudo from D.Petzal, but was made aware that he's retiring to write poetry.

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from illustrator wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

I'd have to disagree with Hornady's inclusion on this list. While they have innovated some, I think the fact that their products, in many cases, tend to fail from a performance standpoint, negates any of the otherwise "innovations" they are credited with.

One case in point is their lauded, but poorly performing SST shotgun slugs. The internet is rife with commentary regarding how poorly these slugs expand on deer and similar-sized game.

I myself have lost a deer due to the SST not penetrating properly. There is no reason why a 12 gauge saboted slug, at ranges under 100 yards, would fail to penetrate a deer's shoulder when you can consistently count on Lightfields in 12 gauge or Powerbelts in .50 cal or a host of other rounds to perform correctly and consistently.

A good friend had similar results with a 20 ga. SST (despite my warnings not to use them) on not one, but TWO deer this season. One was an 8 pt. buck his daughter shot, again, in the shoulder, which went for almost 400 yards before the blood trail was lost. Two weeks ago, using the same gun and SSTs, he shot a doe, broadside at 80 yards. She traveled well over 300 yards, the last 100 yards of which there was no blood. Fortunately we found the deer, and upon inspection, the entrance and exit holes were identical in size (indicating minimal/zero expansion) and the lungs showed very little damage, despite the round penetrating both lungs.

If accuracy were all that mattered, Hornady, especially in their shotgun sabot segment, would be tops in my book. However, if the ammunition does not do it's job, ie, kill the deer quickly and humanely, it's useless. I can only hope that the centerfire guys aren't experiencing this problem.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

yohan,
I didn't just dislike what OL did to Zumbo but also a OL article he did about killing any chimp he saw in Africa after that gal in the states got chewed up by one. I said jeez man if yo0u think a chimp looks at you with animosity and you want to kill all of them then what do you want to do with the leopards, lions, buffs etc?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

After recent and past experiences with Hornady factory ammo, you may certainly "keep the change" of their innovations of sorts. Even their pitiful boxes fall apart. Nein, danke.

I'll just stick with Federal and my roll your owns. I'm still PO'd at Big Green. Besides their loads won't clock what's on their charts anyway.

Hey, Quahog -

Just laughing with you re: the baptist and Pope comment! Good comparison.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Yohan and crm3006:

Why don't you guys bury the hatchet in peace for the new Year? LOL

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

As for shooting at long range I agree with WMH, Bubba just loves his new "ranging" reticle. Now he doesn't even have to practice!

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago
from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Jim in MO & Wa Mtn hunter
Jim ,..Ya i rember that ,.. Zumbo like a lot of his hunting / gun writer ilk ,.tended ( in my humble opinion ) at times
to pile it a little high and a little deep.
Nothing new ,. but a good reminder ,. thanx.
He was / is however appaertly a good cook which to me is a mitigating factor :)
anyone who cooks cant be all bad in my book.

Not to mean or insinuate he( Zumbo ) had or has a PHD,. yuk yuk
But thats what I tell my scotch drinkin "shrink friend" when the pontificatiion gets more thnan my humble Norwegian countenance can stand.
PHD = piled higer and deeper YUK YUJK
Which really pi$$es him off.
That said I respect him very much no if's ands or buts or he would not be my friend ,.
Still every now and then even he admits he needs to be reminded his feces does not smell like strawberry yogert.

Mtn hunter ,. the only place I would consider burying a hatched with regard to the little mutt 30-04 1/ " PP
is not a place I can talk about.

This all started when i took "a nip" at Mr Petzal ,.. for something ,. dont recall now .probably politically oriented. As Mr Petzal was (again in my opinion) using this blog as personal political platform ,.

Which doesnt set right with me,. unless you or me or any one can do the same. Yet as supposed blog boss he has an effect on some that would by many be considered,... considerable. (IE" people idolize)
Believe it or not that same mentality applies to that right wing wack job Rush Limaugh ( sp )

Said nip at Mr Petzal presipitated the little dirt wad coming out of his hole like he was scolding an errant nephew with down syndrome . yuk yuk
As I at times do ,.. after a few exchangs I had my buddy the shrink look his posts over. The responce (behind closed doors of course ) and after ( just ) one scotch had me rolling on the floor or nearly so
As it was clear over time ole 4 1/w may well be about 4 1/2 fet tall with a little PP complex as big as the 18 wheeler we think he drives.
You know the rest ,. so I want no peace with this mutt.
i want him to crawl back in his hole pray to god we never meet. yuk yuk

That aside glad to have the oportunity to learn a little about you ,.. guys like you Jim in Mo and myself ,.and Im sure others here
would or could go along way to getting off the diametrically opposed political stump .

What the difference btween a concervative loberal and a liberal oncervative ? Lippstik ?? Ahh ,.no,..
thats Palin .
The real difference is what the polotitions what us to think ,.. once we figure that out ,. we stand a snow balls chance of getting this country right.

As it is ( and its my buisnes look into this stuff) the stable healthy middel class from a monitary ( wage ) stand point no longer existes.and we as a country need that.
How do we get ( back ) ? By puting the Bonners yuk yuk (John Boehners sp ? ) Bushes and Chaine's on a leash

Ok That it for to day ,.. gotta go do pushups and that blasted stationary bike .Its works tho or I would NOT do it

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from Kansas243 wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

the bolt was dissassembeld and the firing pin had been cleaned after the rifle was purchased - along with the rest of the firearm. we'd only put maybe 50 rounds through the rifle between the last time we cleaned the rifle and when we went out hunting. if the rifle is getting gunked up to the point that it won't fire in cold weather after 50 rounds I view that as a problem.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Good Lord, man! Firing a sporting rifle 50 times and not cleaning it before a hunt?

You are correct, if the inside of the bolt and firing pin requires cleaning on a bolt gun in that few rounds fired then there is something really fowled up. If you disassembled the innards of the bolt, chances are it is not reassembled correctly.

There should be no way on a bolt gun that there would be enough gas blowback to gunk up the firing pin mechanism that quickly. Unless you are saturating it with the wrong grease, something is very wrong for it to malfunction at this relatively minor temperature variation. WTH are you using for cleaning and lube?

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

yohan,
Your a real hoot. jim

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from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Jim In Mo

Thank you sir,.you don't say much but I am none the less certian your a thinker,.
There for,. I consider that a complement and return same.

Best

Yohan

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from guyandarifle wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

illustrator
Forgive me but I'm confused about shotgun slugs and expansion. Countless game animals have fallen to, for instance, hardcast pistol bullets over the years. Perhaps I'm missing something but it sounded like you described a through and through penetrating double lung shot with a large caliber 250gr projectile which, at 80yds, would have more muzzle energy (well over 1000ftlbs) than most factory .44 mag loads have at the muzzle. I mean, you just described what most large bore pistol shooters are trying to accomplish on purpose.

If the SST's are in fact supposed to expand and didn't then yeah, that could by definition be considered a "failure". OTOH a 1/2 ton of energy driving 250 grains through both lungs of a deer...

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from MemphisLuke wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Petzal, stick to guns, shooting, and hunting. Stay out of Politics. Number 10 is ridiculous. The same goes the rest of the NRA propagandist who spew lies about Obama and other Dems as people coming for your guns. Wasn't it a Democratic Congress who passed a law and President Obama signed it that finally allowed the carrying of firearms in national parks? Yes it was. Wow they do want your guns. And thanks a lot for making the price of ammo sky rocket because you Ruby Ridge nuts are stock piling because you actually think guns will become illegal. Maybe Assault Rifles.. and if you think you need an Assault Rifle then you are out of your mind. By the way, I'm sure the NRA and Gun Lobbies pour money into Democratic Presidential Campaigns because they can use their wins as huge tools to drum up membership fees and increase gun business.

Once again Petzal, please stay out of politics. We need your vast gun knowledge, not your idiotic political opinions (i.e. you think Palin is great).

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from guyandarifle wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Memphisluke
I can only assume you are unaware that the only way that particular piece of legislation passed was having it tucked into the "miscellaneous provision" section at the tail end of the Credit Cardholder's Bill of Rights Act of '09? To put a finer point on it that particular allowance was put in place under the Bush administration but was then tied up by a federal court injunction. Tom Coburn of OK saw an opportunity to slip this into a bill he knew the Dems badly wanted and knew would pass. At any rate it's hardly anything to crow pro-Democrat gun rights over.
Also, check out Obama's choice at AG and his record on gun rights. Actually, if you're looking for an pro-gun angle to work for the Democrats then maybe you shouldn't.

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from Steve Marlin wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

With all due respect, if you're using an AR15 in the right caliber then why should anyone in a deer camp give two hoots if you hunt with it?

Personally, years in infantry made me really, really comfort with the AR plus it is very accurate. And the ergonomics beat my Marlin XL7 hands down. Cannot believe many bolt guns could be more comfortable than the XL7 but I am open to suggestions.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Steve Marlin

For the price of a cheap AR, you could wrap your dickskinners around the fine contours of a fine bolt rifle - a Weatherby Mark V in your choice of calibers.

I spent way too many years toting an M-16 and have a nice Bushmaster AR, so I am not against AR's. But a Weatherby Mark V is way ahead of anything Marlin will ever make. Try it, you'l like it! (No, I don't have stock in Weatherby either. LOL) Right tool for the right job.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Steve Marlin-
Got to agree with WA Mtnhunter. I cold buy two Remingtons, Rugers, Savages or probably a Winchester 70 for what you will give for a low end AR. Like Mtnhunter,
I am not particularly anti-black rifle, having toted the real thing on many occasions, and having used Bushmasters and StagArms clones. Just for the money and the purpose, there are many better options available, and I don't even like the AR for anything much bigger than mice.

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from Steve Marlin wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter and crm3006 - thank you for the input, I'll keep a eye out of those rifles on the next range day.

I too feel .223 leaves too little margin for whitetail (note to ALL, please, I beg you, let's not open the .223 for deer debate again).

No doubt you two have a handle on what you like and I doubt anything I say will change your mind -however AR's (to some degree) are modular platforms.

For me - It's the angles and fixed stock of traditional bolt rifles than are the limiting factor for me in the standard bolt rifle design. Pistol grip, adjustable stock, safety location, magazine / release are all factors I attribute to the advantages of the AR platform.

WA Mtnhunter - I note the glider patch - with which BN the 101st did you serve?

Steve

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

@ Steve Marlin

2d Bn, 503d Inf, 173d Abn Bde. Also, we were attached to the 3d Brigade of the 101st upon return from RVN.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

I agree that there are many features of the AR platform that are the best in the class. For the same reasons the military has used bolt action sniper rifles, I like the traditional bolt gun. One shot...one kill with high probability. If I have one shot to make it count, the .223 will never be my first choice given an option.

Invade my space, hello Mr. Bushmaster. I like my AR, just not to hunt with. JMHO

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from Steve Marlin wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

back 2 WA Mthunter - nice to meet you.
My time with later and with the 1-502d.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter-
When were you with 2nd of the 503rd and did you operate out of LZ English?

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from caleb schultz wrote 3 years 48 weeks ago

the marlin xl7 30.06 is an excellent gun .I bought mine at bass pro shops for roughly $300 which is an excellent price for a new gun to me.Its also is easy to shoot .I’ve shot alot of rounds out of it and it never gave me any shoulder problems.

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from caleb schultz wrote 3 years 48 weeks ago

the marlin xl7 30.06 is an excellent gun .I bought mine at bass pro shops for roughly $300 which is an excellent price for a new gun to me.Its also is easy to shoot .I’ve shot alot of rounds out of it and it never gave me any shoulder problems.

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from focusfront wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Bella:

Nobody told us to buy guns. Obama has been too busy dishing out pork by the trillions and taking over health care to bother with something as trivial as an armed citizenry. We know that eventually he will get around to the small matter of disarming us, however, so we proceed accordingly. He is the most liberal man ever to occupy that office over the most liberal legislative branch we've ever seen; liberal as you are, as a thinking person who has been around the block at least once, you just can't believe that they won't come after our gun rights eventually.

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from nc30-06 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

More liberal bs from Bella regarding the "messiah". Defend him at all costs till it is too late, except that the rest of us who see him for what he and his cronies are, won't let it get "too" late. The election box is calling and waiting.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

O Garcia-
You may be right about the gun writer influence. I trained with the M-14 and grew to love it's accuracy and reliability. My experience with the M-1 was from other people's firearms, but I was impressed with the accuracy.
I never could get fully impressed with the M-16, E-1, A-1
or Car -15. They were accurate enough, even out to 500 meters, but not reliable, nor did I like the .223 for it's intended purpose. They remain, to me, a high maintenance POS on a plastic stock, shooting a mouse sized round.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

#2 - Their bullets notwithstanding, I have never had Hornady factory shoot worth a crap and their Frontier brass is cruddy, stained, and unfinished.

#4 - Bubba and his fellow range monkeys have not improved their shooting skills in the past decade either. Those long range shooting infomercials sponsored by Gunwerks passed off as hunting shows make me ill.

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from focusfront wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I still think that ammo improvements are the biggest story in the last decade, because they make the MOA rifles and the all purpose lever guns possible. But you have a point with the ARs, Dave.

If instead of characterizing ARs as antigunner fodder, Jim Zumbo had written, "Much as I enjoy shooting ARs, I don't hunt with them. Compared to sporting rifles they are noisy to operate, heavy, much more expensive, and are not available in the best calibers for elk," he'd still be one of America's most beloved gun writers, because that would have been true at the time.

But now that AR-15s can be had in deer calibers they are all the gun most of us need, and there are at least a couple of eight pound AR-10 types in .338 Federal or .300 SRUM that'd work for elk. You can even get them left-handed! My only reason for not having one is I can't afford them. Obscene what some of them go for.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Here comes old yo, again letting that alligator mouth overload the gnat sized a$$. Watch what you write, yo.

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from RileyDog13 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

My #1 is the internet. It smoothed out pricing and availability of rifles across all markets. But mostly in providing information on cartridges and bullets. People seem to understand ballistics and capabilities better –less likely to use a 7 mag at 300 but call a 270 inadequate at 200. Hunters love to learn and share and their experiences now significantly augment professional writers. There are thousands of opinions –chatrooms, comment sections as this, product reviews on Cabellas, Midway, etc –and the technical understanding of laymen and number of shared experiences are remarkable. Bullet construction and specialization have blossomed. But after the past decade, the average hunter can draw on thousands of field experiences. If willing to learn, can make more informed and ethical equipment and shot decisions than the most experienced hunter or writer of a decade ago.

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from cbanks wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Another decade item, Dave--the development and marketing of the short fat breed of cartridges. Great for single shots, dumb for repeaters. But a marketing triumph!

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

DEP-
I would classify the emergence of the AR-15 as a sporting rifle as more of a transition than a transmogrification, but who wants to argue semantics? I can't figure out why the M-1 and M-14 never captured the hunting population's fancy, especially since they both used viable hunting rounds.
Hornady is just taking their rightful place in the scheme of things, I've used their stuff for at least 25 years.
Don't care much for the Marlins, either lever or bolt, as they have not seen fit to produce a left handed bolt gun, and they have that ding blasted "lawyer" safety on their levers.
AMEN! on the Supremes, although I was outraged that the decision was 5 to 4.
Ditto on Savage, they are the most gun for the money on the market today, and have the best "out of the box" accuracy of any major manufacturer.
As to the obummer thugs, surely they must be taking notice that the American Public is arming themselves? Or are they so enraptured with themselves, that they think We The People are not wise to they the government's long range scheme?
HAPPY NEW YEAR! LIVE LONG, HUNT MUCH, AND WRITE FREQUENTLY!

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

The AR-15 is not and never will be the most popular gun in deer camp, if it even shows up. The calibers it's chambered for are either too small(.223 and .308 are tiny compared to .30.06), or way too expensive(compare a box of 6.8spc to a box of .30-06!), or too hard to find( I've never seen 6.8 spc in a walmart). For the gun to ever be popular in the deer woods you would have to take all the others away.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

MLH was right on. If the Marlin bolt rifle malfunctioned when cold at a mere 20-30 deg F and functioed at a warmer day, say 60-70 deg F, then there is something wrong with the lubrication, cleanliness, and maintenance of the rifle, not the design and constuction. metal does not expand and contract significantly at those temperature ranges. JMHO. Just clean it!

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Jim Zumbo's case was a tragic one I think. he expressed an opinion, something not that much different from what Cactus Jack did very often (and often in a not so gentle way) in his time, except Zumbo did it in the instant feedback/anonymous handle world of the internet.

Although this happened well before the AR-15 fiasco, I think he wrote in OL in 2001 that he wasn't much of a gun nut, but more of a one-gun guy. He shot the same M70 .30-06 for 20 years, then for the next 15 years an A-Bolt in 7RemMag. He probably wasn't aware that sporter versions of the AR-15 existed. but I'm guessing.

I'd probably draw a lot of flak from saying this, but i still think his contributions were far more valuable than whatever damage he may have caused OL, and that OL should have given him more support.

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from budman wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I have to agree with #4 as significant. before people missed at 300 yards. now they miss at 400. ;)

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

10 items all worth making note of Dave.
Now, how about giving us a "My(Dave's)Top Ten Big Game Tropies" with pictures of course!
Do you mind showing them off?

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Meant to say 'Hornady factory ammunition"... sorry

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from hjohn429 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I deffinately agree with #5. I love the Marlin lever-guns. They are increadibly accurate. My dad's Marlin XLR in 35 Rem. will clover-leaf at 150 yards if we do our part. They look coll too....;)

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

crm3006,
i think the M1 and M14 never made it because they came at the time when many of the 'classics' were still around and when the influence of the older generation of gunwriters was still strong. back then, Jack O'Connor was writing about Mausers and Model 70's, and many samples of those rifles were around. now, they're mostly gone, or too expensive.

today, even editors like Greg Rodriguez are known AR fans, and they write favorably of it, and use it.

also, many younger hunters are familiar with the AR thru movies, TV shows, first-person-shooter video games and the daily footage of soldiers and marines carrying the weapon in the war on terror. these same soldiers and marines would probably accept the AR as a hunting weapon once they go home, just as veterans of WW1 embraced the bolt action as a hunting weapon as a result of their experience with the 1903 Springfield.

and yeah, the AR is kind of cool, too. for all of its faults, it has also influenced weapons design everywhere in the West. Every infantry rifle in the free world is somehow "modular" now, just like the M16.

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

jamesti,
if you mean the Weatherby Vanguard (aka Howa 1500) yes agreed, it's a great value. Reviews, including those of Mr Petzal, are all favorable. Usually very reliable, accurate, well bedded, good trigger (or at least not bad), and not bad to look at.

if only they made it in left hand.

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from duckcreekdick wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

It wasn't hype from the conservative right that caused the run on AR's, powder and primers. It was Eric Holder and his like-minded flunkies and supporters. You really do need an AR, Bella! Happy New Year!

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from sarg wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Are you guys taking up money for flowers for Clay, didn't see anything from him latly. Is he gone hunting?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

sarg LOL!

HERE I AM TO SAVE THE DAY!

YA"BUDDY!

HEY DAVE" NOT BAD DAR SHOOTER!!!!

Let’s see now? Where do I begin, Dave made some pretty good top 10’s that went against his grain!
I’ll just scroll to the top!

#1: David Petzal look at me Bro’ you OK? Inside joke, David doesn’t like magazines especially detachable. Just remember folks the AR are a coming and they are catching on!

AR-15’s with a 1-9 twist shooting 6 grain Nosler Partitions makes one hell of a deer round!

#2: Steve Hornady finally stopped playing around or running of his inheritance money from Sir Joyce Hornady and it’s about time! Told that boy back in 91 we needed a 250 grain Soft Point in 338 and he wrote back they had no plans for production any time soon!

#3: Sporting optics? That’s no joke and Leuplold better get there nose out of the arm pits, Sightron is coming on strong!

#4: Long-range shooting comes of age? Where have you been David! Back in the 60’s I called it skill and still do!

#5: Marlin is building lever guns that give away nothing to bolt-actions? Close but no cigar! Can’t handle ultra loads and your still limited to limited bullets to use unless you shoot a Savage Model 99!

#6: Marlin XL-7? Remington and the rest of the bunch need to get off the golf course and get busy!

#7: O” I love my 03-A3 30-06! Besides, I know a many under 400 which we got ½ MOA including the old Marlin 30-30!

#8: There is a Storm a coming, HEAR OUR THUNDER!

#9: Savage another one along with Marlin, but I wish they done a better bedding job on my M10 Muzzleloader, sloppy job!

#10: Barack Obama? Not only he is the greatest salesman of the century, remember he tried to sale the Military scrap to China and got nailed for it!

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from shane wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

As much as I'm not a fan of long range "hunting", you can just smell the synergy steaming off of the new Savage Long Range Hunter, and I want one anyway. It's got plenty of aforementioned "hot items" going for it - it fits the long range trend, it's made by the hottest and most accurate firm there is, and has a 6.5-.284 chambering. Should be a big seller. You're getting a lot for under a grand. Hope 6.5 ammo and brass becomes more available/cheaper.

Savage still makes those good shooting inexpensive rifles, too. They're just doing it all these days, including putting most everyone else to shame.

Great nod on the rifle of the decade. It really deserves the title and should theoretically stir up the market more than it has. My only complaint? Eyepiece clearance by the bolt handle.

Also nice to have Winchester back in some legitimate capacity, making rifles as good as the old ones, and stateside to boot.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Zermoid-
Long, long ago and far, far away, a group of trainees sat
around an old wooden barracks in Ft. Polk, LA, and re-designed the M-14 into the perfect weapon for jungle warfare, which we were being trained for. Umpteen years later, Springfield Armory comes out with the Scout Squad
and SoCom models, short barrels, composite stocks, most of what we had wanted changed. Makes you wonder, don't it? I have one of the Scout Squad models, (20" barrel), and would not hesitate to use it for deer or hogs, with a 150 or 165 gr. load that would shoot accurately. I would use the little 5 round mag, as it makes a slimmer profile on the weapon. Only drawback to the M-1A, it is as noisy to load as a passing freight train! As to the "lawyer safety", I just have no use for it, having carried and used Winchester 94s and 92s for 40+ years and never had a problem emptying them when necessary.
Why no semi-autos in PA? Are pumps legal?

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from MLH wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

kansas243 - might suggest to your friend to disassemble the bolt and clean every part thoroughly with oil and cleaner, and then apply a very light or dry lube. Guns come from the factory covered with anti-rust compound that must be removed before shooting. There might be some excess around the firing pin.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

O Garcia

I won't be renewing my subscription to OL nor buying anything Remington due to how they dumped Zumbo.

And by the way, AR 's are not welcome in our camp either, unless you bring one to shoot coyotes after we are done hunting deer and elk.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Yohan

I completely (well, almost) agree with your assessment posted above. I personally like Jim Zumbo. He is a hunter/writer and not necessarily a gun nut that is hip to the latest fashions in armament. He made a little blurb that was slightly out of school and P.O.'d all the AR fans and black rifle looneys.

And who is at the helm at OL; Editor-in-Chief Todd Smith or Executive Editor (whatever that is) John Snow? I had just renewed my subscriptions to F&S and OL on a 3 year deal when the Zumbo thing blew up in 2007. Since Gentleman Jim is gone and McManus is no longer the back page writer, I see no socially redeeming value in OL. I just got my renewal notice from both -- the OL went thru the office shredder. F&S to follow if they do something as cheesy.

Happy New Year!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Quahog

LMAO! If you went to the local Baptist men's breakfast, at least you would be with the right crowd!

WMH

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

After recent and past experiences with Hornady factory ammo, you may certainly "keep the change" of their innovations of sorts. Even their pitiful boxes fall apart. Nein, danke.

I'll just stick with Federal and my roll your owns. I'm still PO'd at Big Green. Besides their loads won't clock what's on their charts anyway.

Hey, Quahog -

Just laughing with you re: the baptist and Pope comment! Good comparison.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Yohan and crm3006:

Why don't you guys bury the hatchet in peace for the new Year? LOL

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Quality deer management has also come into vogue resulting in a flood of trophy Whitetails this decade.
Dave, you sold me on ER Shaw MK VII now I'm just waiting for the gun and the 8 month wait seems to be taking forever. We are having a tough time deciding on a scope. I can get a huge discount on Leupold, Burris or Bushnell scopes. Which one would you want on your 22-250 with heavy barrel?

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from Kansas243 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

oh yeah - its not Article II either, its Amendment 2 - big difference. Article II is all about presidential powers. I don't think there has been much enchroachment on those lately.

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from huntslow wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Great List! An addendum to #4 - We still have very few long range SHOOTERS! Ranges are one reason but I still see VERY few shooters that shoot well at short range. I also know a number of big game outfitters and guides who bemoan the shooting ability of clients!

Happy New Year!

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from Carney wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

#2 is true. Just listen to Hornady's telephone message and you know you're not dealing with a typical company!!!

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Del, with a 30x scope how are you going to see the 'dogs' through the mirage on a hot day? I'd go 16-20 max.

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from jamesti wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

what the hell is trans mogrification?! dave, you kill me!

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from jamesti wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

is it just me or is savage getting more expensive and weatherby getting less expensive? is that a result of one listening and the other getting too big?

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from JohnR wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

transmogrification
noun- to change the appearance or form of something, especially in a grotesque or bizarre way.
There you go. I had to look it up too.
I would argue the point that "hype" is scaring people to serve petty politics. I will concede that both political parties (assisted by the media) attempt to use hype to further their respective political agendas. Unfortunately the hype usually associated with firearm issues and the 2nd Amendment is predicated by historical examples of our government attempting to reign in the 2nd Amendment.
Two big examples: the "Gun Control Act of 1968", The "Lautenberg Ammendment" to same, the 1994 Assault Weapon Ban, The Brady Bill and more I do not have the time to research.
The conflict concerning firearm ownership does indeed promote a measure of hype on both sides of the issue however hype doesn't ban firearm ownership; politicians with a proven track record of hostility to gun owners do.

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from Carney wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Observations:

Dave, apparently our literary influences are similar.

Hunter S. Thompson taught me to be an absolute psycho through his "Fear & Loathing" books. Fortunately I got straightened out before I came to the same tragic end that he did -- even if it was, just in the nick of time.

Not sure about you, Dave, but I learned all about "transmogrification" from Calvin and Hobbes. For those of you who are uninitiated you can use the handful of strips at this website for a tutorial:
http://members.shaw.ca/newsong/calvin.html

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

#1: I forgot to add the 6.5/264 cal's coming on strong with the ballistics of big bores!

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from Gunslinger wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Most of your top 10 are correct. I do think Ammo has come a long way in our ability to shoot futher and more accurate. AS for new guns, I love my MArlin XL7 and it did not break the bank. Very eliable and if you do your part will do it's. Along gun lines, Rem did a good job with the 700 CDl other than too heavy trigger. With a gun Gun Smith set the pull at 3 lbs and you got a really great hunting gun for anyy NA game. Scopes, never will beat the Nikon for clarity ands mid-range price. All my hunting guns carry the Monarch. SAvage has come a long way in 2 yrs, they now make a wonderful, beautiful firearm and especially I like the 3 position slide safety. Their top line looks like a 700 but much cheaper. Savage has always made a goodc, cheap gun,but the resale never made it, hopefully now it will. Only their "Savage" 22 mag and the 336 sold well on secondary market. BAck to scopes, when they flood the market with a 60 or 70 mm obj lens, then you gonna need new bases and mounts. The gun will look like a stove pipe been added. A scope can only accept so much lght and when it gets dark, regardless of obj. lens it willl not matter if you can;t see horns r not. So untill the economy improves, I will use my present fiearms, just need more places to hunt and time to do so.So for the AKR's to each his own, me, I prefer a hunting gun to look like one.%00 yds is a long shot, too long for most shooters. I never thought I could pass 300 yds, but did kill some nice animals in past 3 yrs at 345 -325 yds.As I've stated many times, pratice is the key with a reliable firearm and corect ammo. Shoot-um-straight and often.Hey, her at home did kill with B/P gun a giant Buck with 10 points, which this part of the country 8 is tops. I also believe that seasons will be longer and moe B/P guns will be sold. They now improved to point they as accrate as a centerfire. My only draw back is that 2nd shot. But we suppose to kill cleanly our first shot,right? The 4 in 1 reloader by CVA is a great 2nd shot option, plus a few cleaning patches moist in a plastic bag is handy for reloading,especially if using the Powerbelts which I do, in 245 grs plastic tip.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Coop,
Glad to see/read you got your top 10 responses in. I got slammed because I used the "B" word on one of them.

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from JohnR wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Just a note to add to Clay's post above; Winchester used to make a moly coated 64 grain power point plus cartridge in .223 that was the cat's meow for deer. It was rated CX2 on the box for light to medium skinned animals (Winchesters's deer rating). Thankfully I bought a few boxes because Winchester discontinued them. I sent them an e-mail regarding the disposition of said bullets. Winchester's reply was simply we no longer produce that cartridge. It was a great .223 round!

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from Roost323 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

great list.

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from focusfront wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Waiting for "Ten Predictions for 2010," Dave. That goes for Phil, too.

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from Zermoid wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

crm3006

M-1 and M-14, I can understand the M-1, as it cannot be "topped off" or even reloaded unless it's empty, but the M-14 would be a great Hunting Rifle, I just wish semi's were legal in PA.

And the "lawyer" safety on their lever actions has one good use, while emptying the gun, other than that it's off and hammer is on the first click.

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from MLH wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Reading though your list you have me shaking my head up and down and thinking a bit. I'll just comment on Hornady - until I read a recent article on their Superformancce rounds I didn't think much about it. But looking back they have introduced many USEFUL ammo innovations - the .17HMR, .204 Ruger (I know you prefer the .223 but shooting this round is fun), and FTX bullets are my favorites. The .375 Ruger also has my attention (I am entralled by the .35 wildcats off the cartridge).

Lots more to their Superformance rounds than I thought. Higher velocities, lower pressures, reduced recoil and muzzle blast ... at lower prices than their light and heavy magnum loads, which the new ammo will replace. Proprietary powder blends and a lot of testing got them here. We (reloaders) wouldn't be able to do the same unless we have access to a ballistics lab and a lot of pull with powder manufacturers. Sure, we can get high velocities but at a price in powder volume, high pressure, recoil, and muzzle blast. I am jealous - these guys have fun and challenges developing these new loads while getting paid for it ... and they are earning their keep.

Makes one wonder what's coming over the next decade. Happy New Year!

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from KJ wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I think Savage's development of the Accu-trigger, which is now copied/modified/used in some form by Marlin and others, is one of the more significant developments of the decade. Just my opinion.

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from focusfront wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I agree with O Garcia. Zumbo was a good hunting writer and I miss his stuff. Maybe he'll be back someday.

Zumbo's problem was that he, very innocently, dinosaured out. Nobody would have batted an eye if he'd made his comments in 1972; the shooting world changed and he didn't see it.

And the shooting world has changed. When I was a kid nobody dressed up like Daniel Boone and hunted deer with flintlocks; nobody dressed up like Wyatt Earp and shot tourneys against guys dressed like Buffalo Bill. I know a bunch of guys who dress like commandos (except for the blaze orange vests and hats) and use military rifles to hunt with. It's all good because it's all shooting; as long as they have good manners in the woods, they are all our friends.

Who knows, as us old guys die off, in ten years the standard deer rifle may be an AR in 6.8 SPC with a rangefinder scope that automatically resets the crosshairs to compensate for range. I just hope I can afford the future, if God wills that I live until it gets here.

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from Jeff Bowers wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

I pretty much agree with everything except #1.

I call it the "wannabee-ification". You sacrifice the dependability, simplicity, and range of ammunition (so far) for the coolness of carrying an "Army gun".

Even an above poster makes the remark of it catching on from movies, TV, and video games.

To quote from one Colonel's book: "Its high rates of fire in the jungle environment had a larger impact on increasing American morale than on actually inflicting enemy casualties."

That should make you want one.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Yohan

This time I completely agree, your first sentence notwithstanding !! LOL

I also think OL gave Pat McManus the fast shuffle, just not as brutally as Zumbo. And our beloved D. Petzal is now "retired" and freelancing? Oh well, the times are a changing, nothing however good stays the same.

BTW, you and crm3006 crack me up. You sure one of you is not a pseudonymn for the other? LOL

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from Quahog wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WMH,
"Cheesy" is a complimentary way of stating that Zumbo was treated like Sh%#! Please forgive my attempt @ humor regarding Baptists and the Pope - everyone is aware of their great affinity for each other.
Thought that BACO'S handling of the "made in America" Winchester deal deserved a kudo from D.Petzal, but was made aware that he's retiring to write poetry.

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from illustrator wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

I'd have to disagree with Hornady's inclusion on this list. While they have innovated some, I think the fact that their products, in many cases, tend to fail from a performance standpoint, negates any of the otherwise "innovations" they are credited with.

One case in point is their lauded, but poorly performing SST shotgun slugs. The internet is rife with commentary regarding how poorly these slugs expand on deer and similar-sized game.

I myself have lost a deer due to the SST not penetrating properly. There is no reason why a 12 gauge saboted slug, at ranges under 100 yards, would fail to penetrate a deer's shoulder when you can consistently count on Lightfields in 12 gauge or Powerbelts in .50 cal or a host of other rounds to perform correctly and consistently.

A good friend had similar results with a 20 ga. SST (despite my warnings not to use them) on not one, but TWO deer this season. One was an 8 pt. buck his daughter shot, again, in the shoulder, which went for almost 400 yards before the blood trail was lost. Two weeks ago, using the same gun and SSTs, he shot a doe, broadside at 80 yards. She traveled well over 300 yards, the last 100 yards of which there was no blood. Fortunately we found the deer, and upon inspection, the entrance and exit holes were identical in size (indicating minimal/zero expansion) and the lungs showed very little damage, despite the round penetrating both lungs.

If accuracy were all that mattered, Hornady, especially in their shotgun sabot segment, would be tops in my book. However, if the ammunition does not do it's job, ie, kill the deer quickly and humanely, it's useless. I can only hope that the centerfire guys aren't experiencing this problem.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

yohan,
I didn't just dislike what OL did to Zumbo but also a OL article he did about killing any chimp he saw in Africa after that gal in the states got chewed up by one. I said jeez man if yo0u think a chimp looks at you with animosity and you want to kill all of them then what do you want to do with the leopards, lions, buffs etc?

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from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Jim in MO & Wa Mtn hunter
Jim ,..Ya i rember that ,.. Zumbo like a lot of his hunting / gun writer ilk ,.tended ( in my humble opinion ) at times
to pile it a little high and a little deep.
Nothing new ,. but a good reminder ,. thanx.
He was / is however appaertly a good cook which to me is a mitigating factor :)
anyone who cooks cant be all bad in my book.

Not to mean or insinuate he( Zumbo ) had or has a PHD,. yuk yuk
But thats what I tell my scotch drinkin "shrink friend" when the pontificatiion gets more thnan my humble Norwegian countenance can stand.
PHD = piled higer and deeper YUK YUJK
Which really pi$$es him off.
That said I respect him very much no if's ands or buts or he would not be my friend ,.
Still every now and then even he admits he needs to be reminded his feces does not smell like strawberry yogert.

Mtn hunter ,. the only place I would consider burying a hatched with regard to the little mutt 30-04 1/ " PP
is not a place I can talk about.

This all started when i took "a nip" at Mr Petzal ,.. for something ,. dont recall now .probably politically oriented. As Mr Petzal was (again in my opinion) using this blog as personal political platform ,.

Which doesnt set right with me,. unless you or me or any one can do the same. Yet as supposed blog boss he has an effect on some that would by many be considered,... considerable. (IE" people idolize)
Believe it or not that same mentality applies to that right wing wack job Rush Limaugh ( sp )

Said nip at Mr Petzal presipitated the little dirt wad coming out of his hole like he was scolding an errant nephew with down syndrome . yuk yuk
As I at times do ,.. after a few exchangs I had my buddy the shrink look his posts over. The responce (behind closed doors of course ) and after ( just ) one scotch had me rolling on the floor or nearly so
As it was clear over time ole 4 1/w may well be about 4 1/2 fet tall with a little PP complex as big as the 18 wheeler we think he drives.
You know the rest ,. so I want no peace with this mutt.
i want him to crawl back in his hole pray to god we never meet. yuk yuk

That aside glad to have the oportunity to learn a little about you ,.. guys like you Jim in Mo and myself ,.and Im sure others here
would or could go along way to getting off the diametrically opposed political stump .

What the difference btween a concervative loberal and a liberal oncervative ? Lippstik ?? Ahh ,.no,..
thats Palin .
The real difference is what the polotitions what us to think ,.. once we figure that out ,. we stand a snow balls chance of getting this country right.

As it is ( and its my buisnes look into this stuff) the stable healthy middel class from a monitary ( wage ) stand point no longer existes.and we as a country need that.
How do we get ( back ) ? By puting the Bonners yuk yuk (John Boehners sp ? ) Bushes and Chaine's on a leash

Ok That it for to day ,.. gotta go do pushups and that blasted stationary bike .Its works tho or I would NOT do it

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Steve Marlin-
Got to agree with WA Mtnhunter. I cold buy two Remingtons, Rugers, Savages or probably a Winchester 70 for what you will give for a low end AR. Like Mtnhunter,
I am not particularly anti-black rifle, having toted the real thing on many occasions, and having used Bushmasters and StagArms clones. Just for the money and the purpose, there are many better options available, and I don't even like the AR for anything much bigger than mice.

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from davidpetzal wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

To Del in KS: There is no doubt in my military mind that I would get a Bushnell Elite 6500 4.5X-30X with the mil dot reticle.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I wonder how Jim Zumbo and President Obama feel about their being responsible for a lot of the ARs success over the last couple of years....

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from Kansas243 wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

i would have to disagree with point #6. I was sitting in a field with my buddy when he lined up on a doe a 80 yards with his XL-7 in .30-06. he pulled the trigger and "click". nothing. he "fired" the rifle 5 times (each with a new round) and nothing went. we got back to the cabin that night, the rifle warmed back up, and it worked just fine. thing was, it wasn't even that cold out - maybe 20, probably closer to 30 though. It was a great rifle at the range (and yes he kept it clean), but it doesn't matter if it doesn't work in the field.

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

YA'KNOW DAVE, WHEN YA'SAY THOSE AS TOP 10, YOU KNOW YOUR GETTING OLD!

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

i think it's worth mentioning that the decade saw the reemergence of the Mauser 98 or some Mauser-type action, often in very expensive and slightly modified forms, from companies like Serengeti, Montana Rifle Company and Empire, to name a few.

the decade also saw the revival of elephant busting rounds in very expensive rifles (see above brands/names) that will probably sit in display cases and never be fired in anger at elephants. the .505 Gibbs, never a common caliber even in the golden days of the safari (the 1920's, post WW1, pre-Depresseion) is now being made in greater numbers than it's ever been made. I never even knew the .505 existed until Phil Shoemaker wrote about it in the late 90's.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Go a head and get an M1 Carbine, I did and they are a hoot to shot, a bonus for me was a bang flop on a button buck at 100 yards on opening day. He is in my freezer now.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

ahead* shoot*, need more coffee!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Hey Jim LOL!

Welcome to the club!

As for these Extraterrestrial Scopes on rifles, anything higher than 12x you start to have problems.

I have a Nichols 3x9 wide field scope I didn't pay much for but it sure is clear and one hell of a tack driver on my 22-250! Started to replace it with one of my Leupold but if it isn't broke? DON"T FIX IT!!!!!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

I MOOSED UP!

#1 AR-15’s with a 1-9 twist shooting 6 grain Nosler Partitions makes one hell of a deer round?

AR-15’s with a 1-9 twist shooting 60 grain Nosler Partitions makes one hell of a deer round!

#2: Steve Hornady finally stopped playing around or running "OUT" of his inheritance money from Sir Joyce Hornady and it’s about time! Told that boy back in 91 we needed a 250 grain Soft Point in 338 and he wrote back they had no plans for production any time soon!

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Wa Hunter,
I dumped my subsription to OL. I don't like editor John Snow either and let him know.

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from Quahog wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter, focusfront, et al,
It's difficult for me to boycott OL or Remington for what they did to Zumbo after his "Black Rifle" comments and opinions in a hunting mag. I mean what response could I expect if I went to the local baptist men's prayer breakfast arguing for papal infallibility ?
Isn't this what big business is all about --- the bottom line ?

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from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Jim from Mo

I agree Zumbo was at the least a mistake,.
viewed another way a travisty ,..cuaght up in the socio -economic eddys of the finacial river of the gun buis.
After some consideration it's clear, little more than timing and corperate pressure were deciding
factor (s) .
IE: Rmmingtion and parent companys appraisal of possible affect on bottom line.
Thusly with no small amount of coin stuck in the AR rifle,.(marketing) not to mention tooling and R & D .
Its simple, money and marketing,sales and revenues point North.
Having much less ( if anything) to do with the emotion and nostalgia attached to hunting and shooting by the people we call sportmen / hunters / shooters .

Unless you count,related and dependant businesses
IE This blog,. this magazine and others like it.
Who are a conduit and powerful promoters of a gun buis adgenda.
As previously stated,. the emotion the meories the friendships and traditions developd by the hunting culture is a perfect cmoufalge for a bottom line bisness ( small arms ) weather for hunting deer or people.
The gun company sees a market,. semingly, starting out with a whole lotta people,. who have never been shot at harboring a slight rambo envy complex.
Said demographics look promising ,. so they go for it.
Verily I promise ,.. one gun / hunting writer jacking said jaws at the wrong time,.. tossed under the wheels of the tank means squat to them.

Had O Connor or Keith or ( John Jobson F % S circa 1950'%60's,) or Page said the same ( given the times) nothing would have happened.
Unless they were promoting the "arms of the enemy"
(Germany Japan ) not long in the wake of WWII and Korea.
Which in my recolection would have gone over like a lead balloon.

Truth be told I actually found O Connor just a tad on the snooty pontificating side ,. even as a young reader.
And tell me old Elmer didnt have an opinion set in stone

That however was over 40 years ago and 110 whitetails later . Not to mention a few other four legged critters

What I suspected then I have proven ( at least to myself ) now.
Meaning it never fails,. and it will always be like going to the BIG APPLE,..
If "one" does not pay attention to what is going on around "one",.. prior to "Jacking ones Jaws" it is much more likley than not.
Someone waiting for "one" to make a "jaw jacking" mistake is gonna take "ones" wallet and eat "ones" lunch after which,.. "one" will get "ones" A$$ kicked.
Making "one" right or wrong,.( usually the jaw jacker) look like a damn fool.

I have in my years never seen it not happen.
Where gun writers and other editorilizing individuals sooner or later get a view of themslves.
As floating high in the water and untouchable based on the opinion of a few ,..yet sooner or later run hard aground on the quiet consideratrion of self contained thinking individuls who are not in the habbit of idolizing.
Who repect opinions but are adverse to more than a certain amount of BS in one year

In my world,.. if I let that happen im the fool

As to John Snow ,.. see what he does ,.. like a young quarter back ,.. gonna be some mistakes ,if they are not too big and not too frequent he grows into the Job ,if not he' will be gone.

Ps the same company that owns OL also owns F & S

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from billkahle wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Petzel, December 31, 2009

Number 8 on the list: Supreme Court's Keller decision.
Should it be Supreme Court's MILLER decision?

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from Beekeeper wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

As for shooting at long range I agree with WMH, Bubba just loves his new "ranging" reticle. Now he doesn't even have to practice!

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago
from guyandarifle wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Memphisluke
I can only assume you are unaware that the only way that particular piece of legislation passed was having it tucked into the "miscellaneous provision" section at the tail end of the Credit Cardholder's Bill of Rights Act of '09? To put a finer point on it that particular allowance was put in place under the Bush administration but was then tied up by a federal court injunction. Tom Coburn of OK saw an opportunity to slip this into a bill he knew the Dems badly wanted and knew would pass. At any rate it's hardly anything to crow pro-Democrat gun rights over.
Also, check out Obama's choice at AG and his record on gun rights. Actually, if you're looking for an pro-gun angle to work for the Democrats then maybe you shouldn't.

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from Steve Marlin wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

With all due respect, if you're using an AR15 in the right caliber then why should anyone in a deer camp give two hoots if you hunt with it?

Personally, years in infantry made me really, really comfort with the AR plus it is very accurate. And the ergonomics beat my Marlin XL7 hands down. Cannot believe many bolt guns could be more comfortable than the XL7 but I am open to suggestions.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

@ Steve Marlin

2d Bn, 503d Inf, 173d Abn Bde. Also, we were attached to the 3d Brigade of the 101st upon return from RVN.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

I agree that there are many features of the AR platform that are the best in the class. For the same reasons the military has used bolt action sniper rifles, I like the traditional bolt gun. One shot...one kill with high probability. If I have one shot to make it count, the .223 will never be my first choice given an option.

Invade my space, hello Mr. Bushmaster. I like my AR, just not to hunt with. JMHO

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from Steve Marlin wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

back 2 WA Mthunter - nice to meet you.
My time with later and with the 1-502d.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter-
When were you with 2nd of the 503rd and did you operate out of LZ English?

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from elmer f. wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

isn't it funny, that when the anti gun people come to power, that we gun people respond so nicely! LOL! if baraks oblama was a gun salesman, he would be earning a 6 figure salery! not to shabby for a guy who hates guns.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Clay ~ one other thing
As something of a springfield rifle historian
(or apparently so) I seek your "take" on this .

In my fledgling months in the big green machine because my vison was 20-10 ( actually they figured better but had no oway to test beyond that ) and,..
that I could shoot "something " above average.
It was suggested to me that with proper training and commitment,. myslef and another guy could
sit in a trees at night with a Rem 700.308 a starlight scope and snipe Charlie to our hearts content.
I politley declined that notion as I have an aversion to staying awake all dam night in a tree. I suggeted ground recon before that ,. but they "the machine" thought I had "authorty issues" and didn't think at that point I was propertly commited ( ya think ??)

However certain talk at one point turned to what was ( as I recall) the WWII springfield sniper rifle.
Sporting rather than the normal four lands an gooves only two precisley cut and polished ,.capable of dusting "krauts" at 1000 yds with a relative degree of regularity .I asked my father about this. who stated that yes indeed ( well,. more like Yaw Yaw ) such a rifle did exist,. But I know little more and am curious.
You got any more on this springfield sniper smoke pole circa WWII subject?

Thnx Yohan

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from Kansas243 wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

the bolt was dissassembeld and the firing pin had been cleaned after the rifle was purchased - along with the rest of the firearm. we'd only put maybe 50 rounds through the rifle between the last time we cleaned the rifle and when we went out hunting. if the rifle is getting gunked up to the point that it won't fire in cold weather after 50 rounds I view that as a problem.

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from guyandarifle wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

illustrator
Forgive me but I'm confused about shotgun slugs and expansion. Countless game animals have fallen to, for instance, hardcast pistol bullets over the years. Perhaps I'm missing something but it sounded like you described a through and through penetrating double lung shot with a large caliber 250gr projectile which, at 80yds, would have more muzzle energy (well over 1000ftlbs) than most factory .44 mag loads have at the muzzle. I mean, you just described what most large bore pistol shooters are trying to accomplish on purpose.

If the SST's are in fact supposed to expand and didn't then yeah, that could by definition be considered a "failure". OTOH a 1/2 ton of energy driving 250 grains through both lungs of a deer...

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from Steve Marlin wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter and crm3006 - thank you for the input, I'll keep a eye out of those rifles on the next range day.

I too feel .223 leaves too little margin for whitetail (note to ALL, please, I beg you, let's not open the .223 for deer debate again).

No doubt you two have a handle on what you like and I doubt anything I say will change your mind -however AR's (to some degree) are modular platforms.

For me - It's the angles and fixed stock of traditional bolt rifles than are the limiting factor for me in the standard bolt rifle design. Pistol grip, adjustable stock, safety location, magazine / release are all factors I attribute to the advantages of the AR platform.

WA Mtnhunter - I note the glider patch - with which BN the 101st did you serve?

Steve

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

yohan, yo Ol'Fart, what's going on BRO!

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from yohan wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Yo!~ clay what up ??
Go to Petzals top working rifle ~ I said "a nice " about you ,.. YUK YUK
Consevative &^&&^^%%!!! Republican #$$$^%$#@@@!!!
that you are,..
When it is,. it is. : )

Been busy ,.. but also so dam cold in upper midwest now,. its keeping me indoors, which aint easy this time of year.
Cause I get ( or start to ) cabin fever about now.
Usually by mow skiing on weekends. but its just brutal last few days. Cleaned every gun in the place twice .
All kinves and broad heads like mini razors ,.
Might have to buy myslef another knife tho. YUK YUK
Guy I talked with in Norway says ("Helle" Jeager) about as good as it gets for the money ( laminated steel )

Also about last of Jan 1st o f Feb when every on else is running for "WARM"
I used to "haul back in" up in WI & Minnesota
Using x coutry skis ( and snowshoes) all by my damn self,. pull a toboggan with gear. Get in thee 3-4 miles. Then hope it would snow to cover entry tracks so wardens on snow machines didnt know I was there
,..Camp for a few days (three nights usually enough YUK YUK but did stay 4 once) cruse around on skis
..and hunt small stuff maybe ice fish .
1st time just to see I could do it.
Then a couple guys came with me,. it was a blast
So we kept doing it . But now the guys who would go before say their too old ,.to many aches and pains etc etc.
My physical conditon still good no real aches and pains,.
pretty fit ,.but with 60 in site now,.. have people telling me don't go alone.
Which is slightly amazing to hear.
Since most everything I ever did,.. was alone
Until ,. I did it . Then others wanted to get on the band wagon
Truth is if it wasnt so G D !! cold I would go alone ,..
But if I froze to death who would prod that little pin headed crm 4 1/2 inch pp yuk yuk

So Clay, am I imagining this or did you mention shooting smokless powder in a muzzle loader?
IE:with some amazing ballistics ..
To far back,. don't remember post almost like a dream
However ,..if im not ( actually ) dreaming,. would you mind postng some basic's on that?

Best

Yohan

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Good Lord, man! Firing a sporting rifle 50 times and not cleaning it before a hunt?

You are correct, if the inside of the bolt and firing pin requires cleaning on a bolt gun in that few rounds fired then there is something really fowled up. If you disassembled the innards of the bolt, chances are it is not reassembled correctly.

There should be no way on a bolt gun that there would be enough gas blowback to gunk up the firing pin mechanism that quickly. Unless you are saturating it with the wrong grease, something is very wrong for it to malfunction at this relatively minor temperature variation. WTH are you using for cleaning and lube?

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

yohan,
Your a real hoot. jim

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from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Jim In Mo

Thank you sir,.you don't say much but I am none the less certian your a thinker,.
There for,. I consider that a complement and return same.

Best

Yohan

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Steve Marlin

For the price of a cheap AR, you could wrap your dickskinners around the fine contours of a fine bolt rifle - a Weatherby Mark V in your choice of calibers.

I spent way too many years toting an M-16 and have a nice Bushmaster AR, so I am not against AR's. But a Weatherby Mark V is way ahead of anything Marlin will ever make. Try it, you'l like it! (No, I don't have stock in Weatherby either. LOL) Right tool for the right job.

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from caleb schultz wrote 3 years 48 weeks ago

the marlin xl7 30.06 is an excellent gun .I bought mine at bass pro shops for roughly $300 which is an excellent price for a new gun to me.Its also is easy to shoot .I’ve shot alot of rounds out of it and it never gave me any shoulder problems.

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from caleb schultz wrote 3 years 48 weeks ago

the marlin xl7 30.06 is an excellent gun .I bought mine at bass pro shops for roughly $300 which is an excellent price for a new gun to me.Its also is easy to shoot .I’ve shot alot of rounds out of it and it never gave me any shoulder problems.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Ah ya , the mini me ( mouth ) that roared.
begs to whimper cry an simper.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtn hunter
Good to hear there is levity beteen the lines IE: concervative / liberal
I could really get going ,.. on this right v/s left thing ( and I do ) but I dont have time now
and you seem like a guy who thinks rather than just reacts ,.so suffice to say I think we need change and I hope the big O ( and not Opera) can help us get there ,..on that for to day nuf said.

The unvarnished truth is a long time ago in land far far away ,.where most were necessarily possessed of small arms A little mutt very similar in profile ( maybe same guy ) to ole crm 4 1/2 inch needle PP.
nearly got me and two other guys whacked .
The only reason that guy didn't die in that place on that day (from friendly fire) is that murder even in combat zone is aginst the law. Even if its murder by slapping some one to death for beiong an idiot yuk yuk
It was close,.. so close,.. I still get pi$$ed just thinking about it .

That guy ole 4 1/2 ( if he is a guy and not a woaman ) aint NOTHIN like me.
From my section in the bleachers its no joke
words Im thinking here are ommitted
Only for fear the langly complex pick it up and show up outside the building with a swat team. YUK YUK sorta .

Best

Yohan

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from Bella wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

Obama hasn't taken any guns, nor has he announced any plans to do so, However the Hype put out by his spoilsport opponents, that sure as heck sells guns. When democrats lost we bided our time until we could win another election. When Republicans loose an election they tell folks to buy every gun in sight. Doesn't sound like the right is particularly interested in social stability, if it is arming it's followers. I support the 2nd amendment and have more guns than most people I know, but my range is only 50 yards. I have no where to shoot an AR and nothing to shoot it at, what would I possibly need one for?
I have a .22 for varmints, a 12 gauge for hunting and a .45 for "exigencies". An AR would put holes clean through the house! I admit I still would like to have an M1 carbine, but we are talking a world of difference betwixt an AK or an AR and a .30 Carbine. I just like to shoot, I admit ARs are fun to shoot, but the hype is only scaring people to serve petty politics.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 15 weeks ago

And ole 4 1/2 "pp the sawed off little "poet lariat" who we now think lives not far from lake Texoma ,.maybe one nearby town in Texas or one nerby in Oklahoma ,..not far from the lake,..
opens his political mouth again ,.
Getting closer little man .

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from yohan wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter
I ralize being the concervative liberal that I am you can not agree 100% ,.if for no other reason than based on the possbility Im wrong YUK YUK .
Which is OK ,. you do however "mostly agree" whick is good

As to Snow,.. weeeeell,.. young and ( possibly) Cocky
or assumes the masses are simply not brilliant and or possibly unwashed ,or both ,.
according to the laws and precepts of the invisible kingdom of Snow

Made that mistake myself once,.. but only once, casue it cost me.

As to McMannus were I steering the OL boat ,. I would have come up with considerable coin of the realm to keep that venue going.
Which I consider a mistake unless of course old Jack Mc had simply had enough ,.
Then again who the H am I ?,..
Other than a reader of over 50 years.

As to Gentleman Jim my take is Mr C was for some years becoming more and more brittle,. and his time had come.
Nothing against him perosonally other than the change in attitude more and more over the past few years ,..
IE: If it isn't a custom walnut stock with hand cut checkerig blessed by the stock fairy who he knows personally and occasionally drinks with.
Metal work based on a blueprint job he perosnally had approved with minor amounts of the huanting fragranace of Africa
IE:elephant poop in the checkering .
Not up to gentleman Jims standards,.
Remeinicent to me of the slightly snooty and pontificating attitude of the man who's position he assumed many years ago,

Thusly, as I personally had previously pontificated
,.. with the a-typical exceptions
many and or most get a little "on the horse" snooty ,.one way or the other sooner or later.

If they back it up a notch or two Im willing ( alway am ) to let things slide to some degree.
But like you,. I can and will dump this rag in a NY minute if it gets too foolish.
Next few months and years should be intersting in this regard in this venue.
Have decided however (hearing your take) not to renue OL.Give it a year or two ,..see what happens.

Best regards

Yohan

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from MemphisLuke wrote 4 years 14 weeks ago

Petzal, stick to guns, shooting, and hunting. Stay out of Politics. Number 10 is ridiculous. The same goes the rest of the NRA propagandist who spew lies about Obama and other Dems as people coming for your guns. Wasn't it a Democratic Congress who passed a law and President Obama signed it that finally allowed the carrying of firearms in national parks? Yes it was. Wow they do want your guns. And thanks a lot for making the price of ammo sky rocket because you Ruby Ridge nuts are stock piling because you actually think guns will become illegal. Maybe Assault Rifles.. and if you think you need an Assault Rifle then you are out of your mind. By the way, I'm sure the NRA and Gun Lobbies pour money into Democratic Presidential Campaigns because they can use their wins as huge tools to drum up membership fees and increase gun business.

Once again Petzal, please stay out of politics. We need your vast gun knowledge, not your idiotic political opinions (i.e. you think Palin is great).

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