out of curiosity, why are you surprised by the bow/crossbow placement? I have zero empirical evidence, but in my experience a greater proportion of archery only hunters veer towards trophy hunting than do gun only hunters.

yrs-
Evan!

Greenhead I could not agree more, I know a lot of meat and potato hunters that are not concerned with trophies, rather bringing home meat for the freezer. my informal poll says; .30-06, .308, .25-06 are the top 3, with one hunter that likes to "reach out and touch" pronghorn with his magnums.

It's not going to make anyone's list, but I've been doing some hunting with a 7mm-08 lately and I just think it's terrific. My gun is the Ruger M77 Compact, a short little stubby thing that rides great in a truck and is real handy in the brush or in a tight treestand.

The lack of recoil is what I most enjoy. I shot a deer the other day. There was no recoil and I actually watched through the scope as the deer absolutely crumbled in its tracks.

I also own a .300 Win Mag and a 30-06, but the 7mm-08 is what I find myself reaching for as I go out the door. I bought it for my kids to hunt deer with, but I use it way more than they do. I'll probably carry it instead of the .300 on my next elk hunt.

No surprise on the high standing of the "primitive" bows, crossbows, shotguns and blackpowder weapons. Special seasons, early seasons and longer seasons create more opportunity. Also today's rifled slug gun with modern optics is a long way from Uncle Bud's High Standard pump.

I wonder how many "Book" trophies are taken incidentally?

The 300 and 7mm mags make a total mess out of deer and a 6mm as a big game round- WFT. The people in this survey were hunting for trophies- so they probably care more about range than a practical round. I'd guess the 30 06 would easily come in first in a broader survey, but I wouldn't tade my 308 for anything on the list.

Archery is number two for the simple fact archery seasons are much longer than gun seasons. I would be curious to know how many B&C animals are from public or private land.

Living in Ohio I would have guess archery to be number 1.

In a pool of all hunters not just those in the BC I would have to say the top two would be .270 and 30-06.

I suppose I'm surprised in that I thought B&C was for firearms and P&Y was for archery. But then I'm not a trophy hunter so what do I know. I would have thought the .308 Win would have made the top 5 even with bows included. I have no use for 6mm cartridges and am surprised that the .257's didn't place higher given all the hooplah given to them on this blog.

You have hit a nerve with B&C records claiming our data set, which we strive to create a scientifically sound record of the best specimens of big game in North America, is biased by trophy hunting mentality. Both the Director and Assistant Director of the records program are trained and experienced wildlife biologists working for a diverse group of wildlife management employers at the private, state, and federal level before coming to work for B&C. Below you will find our two rebuttals.

I have worked for Boone and Crockett Club’s records program since 1976 and there are some incorrect stereotypical assumptions being made about the caliber data that B&C recently published, as well as the type of hunters entering trophies in B&C. From the comments posted, it appears that some hunters think only so called trophy hunters enter trophies in B&C. While there are no doubt serious trophy hunters doing so, nothing could be further from the truth. I have found over the years that the majority of hunters entering trophies in B&C are your average hunter who actually “stumbled” on a B&C trophy, especially whitetail deer. Many hunters take a B&C the first time they go hunting, and many other hunters take a B&C trophy after hunting a lifetime. Also, no less than 75 children, 16-years-old and younger, have entered a trophy in B&C in the last three years. Six percent of the sample size used for our caliber report was children who can hardly be considered trophy hunters. Given a choice, I have found that many of the so-called meat hunters will pick a buck over a doe, and most hunters will pick a larger buck if given a choice. That hardly makes them a trophy hunter. A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. If the data is skewed, it’s because there are so many caliber choices today that are being hyped in the outdoor press that the average hunter doesn’t fully understand that bigger isn’t necessarily better. For example, back in the 1950s the .300 Savage was considered a great caliber for moose. Also, the archery figures are skewed lower because most hunters, including many bowhunters do not enter their trophy in B&C because they don’t know that B&C accepts animals harvested with archery tackle and/or because of a deliberate decision to only enter their trophy in P&Y.

Jack Reneau
Director, Big Game Records
Boone and Crockett Club
250 Station Dr.
Missoula, MT 59801
406/542-1888, ext. 205

I wonder what sources was used to come up with this line up?

A few question that are coming up are good and I will take the time to answer them to the best of my ability later this afternoon/evening when I get home. Direct them to Justin on here and I will get to them as I get a chance in regard to entry requirements, or the compilation of my list.

For years a lot of gun writers have been boasting about their magnums, and a lot of readers bought into that, so it doesn't surprise me that the .300 mags are #1 and the 7mm mags are #5. But really - a .300 mag is just a loud, hard-kicking .30-06, and the 7 mags are just loud, hard-kicking .270s. This survey doesn't indicate worthiness, just use by people entering in the B&C books. You don't need magnums - bow entries were #2! I'm really surprised the 6mm came in higher than the .308.

My apologies "its directors."

btw 6% ok fine what about the other 94%

B&C is definitely not the exclusive domain of the well heeled. I know 3 or 4 good old boys from down my way that are just hard core hunters with well worn heels that have bucks in the book.

Their favorite firearm, "Seb'um Mag" of course. That is 7 mm Remington Magnum to you folks from north of the Mason/Dixon... I too an surprised that the 7 Mag is not higher on the list.

Muzzleloader/Shotgun/Archery doesn't surprise me at all. As others have pointed out it is simply the availability of special draw hunts/longer seasons/archery only/shotgun only/muzzleloader only seasons becoming more prevalent.

I also thought the Quarter Bore Clan would finish higher as well.

I'm curious, what is the number of Whitetail entries vs. entries for other species? I'll bet it is out of proportion...?

Overkill or no, .300 magnums individually would probably outdo neither the .270 nor the '06. Consider: the 300 Weatherby, 300 H&H, 300 WSM, 300 Winchester, Remington SAUM and Ultra Mags and possibly the .30-378, .300 Dakota and both Lazzeroni long and short mags all being lumped in. Wow. That's a choice or two, anyway.

I have questions.

#1 - Why does "B & C Records" feel such a need to be sooo defensive?

#2 - The real data, please. How many "B&C" 'racks' were taken at for-pay high fence ranch hunting operations? How many on public land?

#3 - Out of those taken, how many 'repeat customers' do you have? Does this suggest they are no-$#!+ hunters or that they have the $$$ to hunt places where the deck (odds)are more stacked in their favor for 'harvesting' such sized racks, er, I mean deer?

I'm just asking questions. I'm not inferring answers. Sounds like to me if you have so much data, you (not Dave, but B&C) could be more forthcoming with us here. And I'm not even mad that my 7 mag is low in the outcome of calibers used. I'm like others; I'd have bet the farm that 30/06 and .308 would be a lot higher, therefore my other questions.

To me this list is not a surprise based on BC record entries. Now, I think we need to look at this 30.06 "following" myth. Not saying the old .06 isn't popular, but as WA mentioned if I looked at our hunting camp three of us OWN a 30.06, but we hunt with a couple of different calibers, as well. I would say the .300 mags are taking the lead over the odd-6 in many places whether that extra power is necessary to kill an amimal is another story.
I still believe the .270 makes a better all around big game round over the .06; less recoil, flatter(by alittle)shooting, and can handle any deer sized animal just easily. Sure, the heavier bullets of the .06 can handle Elk better, but if I wan to take an Elk, I'll take my .35 Whelen or 45/70 to do that task.

Easy 'Neck,

I can feel the heat all the way up here in the Piedmont! On second thought it feels pretty good considering the weather lately, keep 'a stewin'!

I'd like to point out for one and all that B&C nor P&Y will accept animals killed from High Fenced areas, or at least the last time I read the rules they didn't.

I'd still like to have my question answered concerning the number of whitetails vs. the number of other species entered in the book.

WMH, I'd bet a good many of the .300 mags will fall into the bear category as well.

Dave, you need to really stir the pot more often!

Sorry to sound so wound up, y'all. Usually my BS detector starts going off when two different people have to offer multiple explanations (no offense to Mr.Renau). If Happy is speaking up for you, you must be at least moderately tolerable. I'll hold out for your response to my, ahem, stewing...

I would be curious to know how the game breaks down? The high percentage of .300s doesn't surprise me if you have a lot of sheep and antelope records, and elk. Bigger is better, right? Not that you need bigger for the speed goats, everybody just thinks you have to shoot 400 yds. to kill one. If it was strictly deer and elk, the '06 and .270 and even the quarter bores would have placed higher. Throw in the bears, and the low placement of the .338 and .375 makes me wonder what people use for bears. Do longer seasons for archery have that big an impact? Guess so.

WA Mtnhunter-
Thanks for the "rest of the story." I didn't even realize that cougars, musk ox, and bison were on the B&C
trophy list.

good article

Justin,

Thanks for your hard work and number crunching ability! Would you mind breaking out the entries by percentage and species for us sometime. Just curious...

B and C Records
Thank you for the valuable information and taking the time to answer our questions.

B AND C RECORDS

That non-common category mentioned in your post above contains some of my favorite elk cartridges! Rock on!

Great discussion guys! Now if you want to really learn something, go to B&C's website and look up their rules on "Fair Chase" and see what it says. It will be an education for some of you who think of yourselves as the example of an "ethical hunter". If it's not you it's someone you know.
I had to use B&C's rules printed from their website a few years back to "correct" the ways of an older gentleman who was new to hunting and bragging about his hunting "success". He was wounding game at ranges well beyond his ability or equipment, and having to chase the animal for miles.
Reading the standards in black and white was enough to cause him to see the error of his ways. He had no idea, what "Fair Chase" really means, and I bet some of you don't either. B&C/SCI/P&Y don't allow any trophies that aren't taken under their standards of Fair Chase.
Just my two-cents
AKX

Dave,
Obviously a great post judging by the number of responses before I even reviewed it! Now, to be a little more specific, we need to have surveys which separate the categories into sensible groupings. What are bow and arrow doing in a gun survey - but it was not a gun survey - I guess. What are little guns doing in survey with big guns. Appropriate calibers depend on what you are going to hunt. If all you hunt is white tail deer in close forest you do not need much gun. That gun would not fit into a group that would represent hunting BIG BEAR. Nor would it fit into a group that would hunt mountain game where 400 yds is a taken for granted shot. But it is, without doubt, a great gun for what it does well.
So, interesting survey, but not too representative of anything, in my opinion.

I know P&Y is the 'exclusive' record book, altho like most, I started not knowing B&C also listed game taken with archery.

I really don't know what the fuzz is all about. Maybe the .30-06 shooters just don't submit a B&C that much. And if you're a 7mag or .30-06 fan, you can always cite sales records of both ammo and reloading dies to prove your point.

getting off the pulpit now.

B and C Records,

Thanks for responding to all the questions. I only hear about B&C when it comes to individual trophy animals. In one of your posts, you stress the conservation angle of the organization - it would be nice to hear more about that. I would imagine you have something on that on your website - and I intend to look, but if you have a link to information about your conservation work, it would be appreciated.

Thank God some folks still get B&C big game with a 30-30, now I won't have to hide mine in a case and take it out to the truck under the cover of darkness....

Glad to see someone from B&C arriving to talk about the subject, but surprised at the defensiveness of the initial responses. relax. it's just the friggin' internet. subsequent (less defensive) responses were interesting and educational!

yrs-
Evan!

Rice Farm nailed it. This was a polite discussion compared to many on this blog! While there are those who have facts to back up their lists, favorites, best this or that, etc., there are a multitude of "regulars", dare I say it, that don't know $h1t from Shinola and are all too willing to spread their brand of fertilizer.

Lists, polls, and votes really always make sense and are always based on truth, justice, and the American way. Just like the 2008 Presidential Election, huh?

Justin--

If you could access data reporting the total sale of ammunition by caliber from the three largest manufacturering companies, then extract the data for the most recognized calibers used for whitetail deer and compare the percentages of sales for each caliber to your list of percentages of calibers of B&C entrants, that may be a valid comparison. As stated by many previously, even if your end result would show that "X" caliber accounts for 26.89% of total sales and also accounts for 25-30% of total B&C entries, I doubt that many will convert from our personal favorite(s). Your work so far is very interesting and stimulating.

Double ditto ricefarm! That was a very insightful statement. LOL, WA Mtnhunter I haven't heard that expression ($h1t from Shinola )in quite a while.
Add to the equation people like me who will hunt with my M1A in .308 most of the deer season, and the one or two days I hunt with my Model 70 in 30-06 I harvest a deer. Yet I would have to report that I hunted mostly with the .308. I am sure there are more of us here who hunt with different caliber rifles during one hunting season.

Wonder what the chances of the 300 magnum being no 1 would be if Roy Weatherby had kept selling insurance instead of being a gun nut?
Not having any listings in Boone & Crockett, I am hardly an expert; but the 7x57 ranks no 1 with me. Everything I have shot with it has dropped to one shot. Usually in their tracks; a few have traveled as far as 15-20 ft.

David

We just didn't want to rile you! The .338 Win Mag IS probably the best big game cartridge around for those who like 12 pound rifles or don't mind the noise generated by the sound of their shoulder blades clapping together. I bought one in 1989 because I thought it was the Alpha and Omega of elk rifles. After that Winchester M70 kicked the stuffing out of me trying to get it zero'd at the range, I punted to the .35 Whelen and have never regretted it. You can't kill 'em deader than dead. The .35W, 7mm Weatherby, and .30-06 are about the upper limit for me.

What say you?

Just scanned this one ,. and WOW,. who would have thought we as a (group ) demographic ) would give much of a rats behind ,. makes me laugh,
yet not disrespectfuly . (so thank you one and all )
What occurs to me is that we the (hunting shooting population) have really changed ( a lot) as a group in that past decade or two.

Many golden sunsets ago Jack Oconner
pontificated( something he was very good at ) on the magic 270,.. as did others of his time ( Jon Jobson) - Sports Afied circ 1950's and 60's etc etc.

Yet seldom did we hear of shots exceeding 300yds

Except of course by Cactus Jack ( and his cronies) as he / they poured fire down a canyon or sendero (sp?) after a giant bounding mule deer (at 400 yds and counting) occasionly accompanied by back up fire from his wife ( Elinor-?) using a custom mauser 7 x57 with 16o grain bullets behind some magical weight of a certain powder.
(which I should say is a load I personally believe to have certian magical elements )

Other than that a long shot, for most of us .. was 250 yds.Hell 200 was a long poke.

Having shot roughly a semi load of white tails ( 110 +) I can and will say the longest shot I ever made was a fluke .
It was a paced off diatnce of 300 (just over but not much ) yards. With a whomped up 8x57 with open sightes. Only reason I took the shot was I knew almost exactly how far it was ( before range finders ) ,.there was utterly no wind and my brother who was standing next to me with a 35 Rem said
"Yo if thats 300 +/- do you know the hold over ?
I allowed as how I thought I did . at which point he said "Well then why dont you shoot that guy" ( deer)
Said "guy" ( deer) having stepped from the edge of a woods and just stood there ,for a long time,.. looking around.
"That guy" ( the deer) stood there too long.

Got a rest against a tree,. steadied up, and let one go.
One shot kill a little high and a little back,from the shoulder ,
The deer took a couple steps .looked around some more ,.. then over and out.
But the other 100 + for the most part fell at distances under 100 yds and truth be told most within what I guess to be 60- 70 yds.

I say all that as refernce point ,.
With the advent of the more technical approach to shooting / hunting ,.improved powder optics and projectiles IE: improved accuracy ,..
effective ranges for (the average AJ hunter dude) got longer.
Due in my humble opinon primarily to lower tragectory / and higher energy,.
Guys could did and do kill things with greater consistency at greater ranges.
But it took more powder and more noise to do it.

With great emphases by gun manufactures and writers ,..
on smoke poles that will shoot with great precision into the next zip code it is no suprise to me the big 30's
are used in bigger country for longer shooting .
It would also be no suprise that a fair amount of wounding occurs due to the avrage ( macho wanna be) pilgrim who has developed flinch of epic proportion.

My stadard today is 200yds,. if it decernably further i start hunting again (to get closer) ,.. once within that range I will shoot,.. ( why they call it hunting and not shooting) and here's another truth ,.
Never shot a bear ,.. except one couldn't avoid
(Had me on the meneu as lunch.)
Everthing else ( aside from deer ) NOT including that which will bite back,.

Meaning the big ones with houves and antlers ,.. all with an 8 x 57 all within 150 yds shooting 196 grain bullets at just a tad under 2600 fps.

Thusly fellow shooters ( and magnum blasters ) yuk yuk )
I will never say bigger isnt better in the literal sense with respect to the subject of killing
but as a parctical measure maybe not.

What I would find intersting is what geopgraphic area amd economic strata those who shoot expensive magnum projetiles come from.
Still understanding the later is essentially a
"data mining" impossibilty ,. the former would still be to me interstiong and possibly a telling factor.

YAW YAW 1st ve shoot da moose and den ve soot da bull
yuk yuk

But as long as I have been hunting most of it has been in the upper midwest and I have seen exactly three 300
mags two .338 win mags and one 375 H & H ,. which was carreid by a man I knew to be simply gun crazy at the time. He wanted to see the effect a 375 would have
on big Minnisota Whiteail. Vert funnt story but for another day .

Wingshooter - that ought to make one heck of a hog gun!

Cheers to all and any time you want to throw around B&C numbers we are more than happy to clarify any question that come up. We aren't offended and thanks for the support most have shown on here, the next list will be better, inline's are seperate, crossbows are there own category etc.

Besides there is no reason to argue the fact that the .338 is the best all round caliber for North America, to those complaining...hit the weight room (Obvisouly my opinion not B&C's)

Justin

Have seen em 400+ and not tame....and NOT happy! forget about hogzilla or any of that BS - try being in a thicket, in mud, with one mad and close!
Ask DakotaMan - he's been down in these parts.

Wingshooter just punched up ballistics for both

9.3 x 74 and 9.3 x 62 ,..with 285 gr no practicle difference.

Hogs be ware ,.

Wow. DP and B & C have defiled the Inner Sanctum and spouted Heresy. The Reactionaries have crawled out of the woodwork….talking. I can believe B & C figures. …Times change. IMHO:

300 Mags offer extra powder not available in ’06 size or 308 cases. I can understand why a hunter would want 300 Mag’s for deer and real NA Big Game.

338 Mag is marvelous medium factory cartridge and will be used more by NA Hunters. I love the way 225 and 250 grain bullets overwhelm Big Game. I prefer 35 Whelen and 338-06 only because I like 22” barrel. IMHO 338 need at least a 24” barrel. I predict the future one rifle hunter will have a fine 338 Mag rifle instead of a fine 30-06.

I think folks will play with an AR Platform, but there’s no way an AR Platform makes a big game rifle. If it was otherwise we all be using semi-auto since the 50’s

David P.

Correctomundo, sir. As a now certified old fart having passed the big six-oh, I will leave the truly big magnums to those more able with better health care plans that cover detached retinas and shoulder and knee socket repalcement surgery. Wait? None of will have that soon, but I digress.

Some of my cronies complain about felt recoil from my .35 Whelen when I slip them a "mickey" of a 250 grain bullet. My 35W weight in right at 8.2 pounds with 3 cartridges in the magazine and Montana leather sling attached. Not too bad with 225 gr loads and a Limbsaver recoil pad on the old BDL stock. My 7mm Weatherby is a little heavier and shoots just fine with 150 gr full house handloads. A bit louder though. Personally, I would go with a .340 Weatherby since I don't follow the herd very often nor well.

Thanks for all your fine articles. Wish there were more.