ahhhhh climate change deniers

If we assume they are not showing blatant political bias or anti-intellectualism then there are two main causes for this fox news-induced condition:

1) Understanding the difference between "Weather" and "Climate" ->
Weather is the local, short term description of what the atmosphere is doing, the things you WEATHER-man tells you about on the news every morning. Climate is the long term description of what the atmosphere is doing over the whole planet, or at least large swaths of it. We are talking centuries and continents as units, not hours and miles.

Saying that you have noticed no change in weather over your lifetime and therefore the climate is not changing is akin to saying that 99% of the people in your town go to church on Sunday therefore, 99% of the whole nation goes to church every Sunday, and that they always have and always will.

Its easy to see how someone could come to that conclusion if they weren't thinking deeply, however you just don't have enough data to make that statement.

Climate scientists however, do have the data to make statements about climate, its what they do. Its fascinating stuff that utilizes fields from paleontology, to physics, to chemistry, to computer science, I highly recommend reading up on the topic. Saying that you can overrule their decades of rigorous research by looking out your window and telling anecdotes is foolish.

Chad

I didn't mean to deride you at all, in fact quite the opposite.

I just wanted to get in a point for minority religions while I could.

While the big 3 monotheistic religions tend to demonize (literally) nature, many of the worlds other religions (including Paganism) revere it.

Think about it, Lucifer was an Angel before he fell, yet he is pictured with bull-like horns, goat-like legs and a tail. "original sin" comes from an incident involving a fruit tree and an arboreal reptile. The Anti-Christ is called the "beast" and described with animal characteristics. The Puritans told their women and children not to go into the woods because Satan was waiting in there to tempt them.

What do all these religious stories have in common? They closely associate nature with diabolical evil.

Is it really all that surprising that modern western culture, which is largely built on these beliefs has been so incredibly hostile to nature?

The irony is that if the Gaia hypothesis is even a little bit right, this behavior will ultimately be self-destructive.

Nuclear Power. France is now 80% nuclear powered, and safely and effectively encases and buries it's radioactive waste. Now, I usually want nothing to do w/being like France, but in this instance, I believe we need to take heed. Since we're agreeing w/Russia to reduce our nuclear stockpiles, we already have tons of nuclear waste to deal with, why not power millions of American homes with all that extra material.

I do not believe climate change is a hoax. Believe it or not, we cannot keep pillaging our natural resources and putting nothing back into the Earth but pollutants. To think this is a smart path to continue on is idiotic.

Ponder this, reported cases of children w/ asthma have increased 100% in 50 years. This isn't left wing propaganda, it was stated today on CSPAN by a Republican Senator advocating nuclear energy.

Way to go Chad!

Both for this blog post and for bringing up the Gaia concept on this site!

for those who are unfamiliar, the Gaia concept in a nutshell goes a little something like this:

All of earth's biosphere is actually one life form.

Just as the individual cells in your body act individually to form the whole person, each living thing on earth acts individually to form the whole being called Gaia.

Also, just as the various cells in your body are highly dependent on one another to survive, all the living things on earth are highly dependent on on another to survive.

This is a concept that Pagans have been familiar with for centuries, but was only recently brought to the attention of modern science by Mr. Lovelock.

No problem, Pagan. I didn't take it that way.

Pretty interesting points you've made. Paganism as it relates to traditional hunting cultures is something I've always been interested in. And while I may not be a practicing Pagan, most folks do consider me all heathen...

As for hurricane forecasting and sensing air temperatures from satellites (I assume that's what sat. temperature means)

both fall under my reason #1, I imagine even they would admit that what they do is very different from what climate scientists do.

As for your assertion that
"whether or not its manmade is unknowable untill we get more data"

What data are you looking for exactly?

We know that C02 and various other gasses trap infrared radiation and convert it into heat. This is apparent from their molecular emission/absorption spectra and can also be demonstrated in fairly simple lab tests.

But, you are wondering, "how do those simple lab tests and absorption spectra correlate with such a high order, non linear system as global climate?"

well... they can take ice cores going back several hundred thousand years, from these ice cores they can measure both temperature and atmospheric co2 concentration. These measurements show a very nearly linear correlation between temperature and co2 concentration. As co2 goes up, temperature goes up, as co2 goes down, temperature goes down.

Now, of course correlation does not imply causation so this data cannot "prove" anything by itself. But when we use this data to answer the earlier question about whether the absorption spectra and lab tests apply to the atmosphere as a whole, the answer is a resounding "yes".

So, we know we are dumping huge amounts co2 into the atmosphere that wouldn't otherwise be there, and we know that adding co2 to the atmosphere raises average global temperature... what more data are you waiting for?

bigeee-

I was just thinking I've heard that "the debate isn't over" argument somewhere before....

I know!

from the 5000 yr old earth, Evolution deniers!!

The whole concept is laughable, this idea that since "only" 99.99% of scientists agree on something, then the debate is still ongoing.

Its like saying that because Neo-Nazi's and Iranian anti-Semites say the Holocaust didn't happen, then the debate as to whether or not the Holocaust happened "isn't over"!

The whole concept that a "debate" isn't over until 100% of the world agrees is ludicrous! It suggests a complete lack of understanding of how science, or human nature for that matter works.

Heck! we don't even have 100% agreement that the world is round!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

"Anyone have any suggestions on how we can untangle ourselves from it?"

Dams serve two purposes. They pool water to drive generators, and they regulate stream flow mostly to provide water for agriculture.

100% of US electrical generation could be provided by solar power, wind and clean coal. Since peak demand occurs during daylight, about 60% could be provided by solar. About 20% could be provided by wind and the remainder by coal. By the way, solar could meet the electrical demand even if everyone switched to an electric only car, but I think it's unlikely that we'll have such a demand.

In the northeast, solar has less potential for electrical generation but is still very effective for thermal massing to meet heating needs.

We could do it. We have the technology now. All that is wanting is the willpower to make ourselves wholly independent of imported fuel. It'd cost alot in the short term, but we'd make it back from the improved current accounts situation and the ability to divest ourselves of military concerns in oil-producing states.

2) Understanding how Science and Intellectual thought works->

When "The Heartland Institute" (the upstanding people who brought you the "cigarette smoke is good for you" scientific reports) roll out one of those "500 scientists say climate change is a hoax" and fox news reports it as fact, a fraud worthy of prosecution is being committed.

First off, when one of these lists is released, 15-20% of the scientists on it immediately petition to have their names removed because they think climate change is very real. But its too late, fox news has reported it as fact and the list has hit the internet so its lost in the ether.

Second off, the overwhelming majority of the list (70%ish) are in fact scientists, but they are specialists in fields that have nothing to do with climate science; physiology, sociology, electrical engineering, Petroleum science (hmmm... no bias there), etc... Though these people have degrees, they possess little to no climate expertise and their opinion is therefore no more useful than any joe off the street.

Another group are actual climate scientists who very much think climate change is real but disagree with a collage on how exactly the events will play out. (i.e. some particular glacier will melt in 70 yrs instead of 50) This is akin to Phil Bourjaily saying "the .270 is the best deer round ever", David Petzal saying "the 30-06 is the best deer round ever" and an outside observer concluding that they think bullets can't kill deer.....ITS RIDICULOUS

When you whittle away all those groups there are usually one or two legitimate climate scientists (out of the thousands) who don't think climate change is real. But there are also "Geologists" in the deep south who say the earth is 5000 yrs old and "Historians" in Iran who say that the Holocaust never happened...

Well, the problem with climate change is not its own self, it's that it can screw up ecosystems. Our goal is to not let ecosystems get screwed up. Salmon disappearing is definitely a case of an ecosystem getting screwed up. So in this case, the salmon take priority.

The following posts are intended for Chad (since I have no way to personally message him)

My apologies to anyone who thinks it doesn't belong on a hunting/fishing site, but Chad did ask about it.

If you don't care, just don't read it.

If you do care, I'd love your input.

I'd also love some input from some fellow Neo-Pagans (Bella, NYCflyangler), anyone with a knowledge of Native American or Hindu spiritual practices, or even a well-learned Christian theologian.

I've watched pictures of several glaciers covering more than 50 years. They're getting smaller,retreating, traveling up hill, melting!
I don't need any more proof, far as I know only one thing causes ice to melt.
It's warming up guys.
And I'm thinking that we need many more dams, all with fish ladders. Each can provide electricity, help recharge the aquifers and just in general give us more ground and surface water. As martha says "That's a good thing".

Labrador-

Like ANY journalistic source, the NY Times has a baked in bias. In the case of the Times, this bias leans rather heavily towards the left.

The Times has also written stories saying that the Earth is round, and that it orbits around the Sun.

Does this mean that those of who "believe" in a round Earth and a helio-centric solar system are "drinking the liberal koolaid"?

Does this mean that those of use who want the government to prepare to plow and salt the roads this winter are "begg[ing] to be forced to conform"?

After all, they'll have to tax us to salt and plow those roads, that will limit our freedoms. ONLY 99.9999% of scientists think that we live on a round Earth orbiting the Sun and thusly, that winter is coming! The debate isn't over!

Lab-

"you find the same names that fund the global warming fanatics"

I'm afraid you have confused the scientific matter of whether man-made climate change exists with the social issue of what, if anything, should be done about it.

While the organizations you listed have surely funded advertisement campaigns promoting their social solution, they had nothing to do with the scientific research behind the concept.

You will find it was agencies like the NSF, NOAA, NASA, etc... that funded the research... along with just about all the valid research in the U.S.

"Older climate scientists seem to be more anti global warming than younger scientists."

Cite your source, because I highly doubt its true.

also, I think you have to ask yourself. Can a liberal believe something that is true? or is your world view so dualistic that if a liberal says it, then it must be evil and false?

If a liberal believes that an apple is red, then does that by default mean the apple is not red?

There has always been global warming and cooling on this planet. To think that we are signifigant enough to change this is crazy. It is not manmade, it is mother nature showing us who is boss. If we were not susposed to use oil coal reserves for energy god would not have put them here for us to use. One volcano puts out more ash than any manmade source can. I do agree that we should use nuclear energy for energy, but remember that the people need energy now. We have coal in abundance and should use it. We also should use hydroelectric for power and wind and solar. But quit trying to think we can change climate when the earth has regulated itself since the beginning. We come and go, the earth is still here.

Here is a source that I have found some of my information from. www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/globalwarmup.html

I don't spend my time looking at crap like global warming most of the time, and don't feel the need to cite my sources as you say. I know what I know, and don't care what you think you know.

Shane
I have news for you. Crops faulter, droughts happens, bees die and different species become invasive. It happens without global warming.
The last dustbowl would not have been as bad as far as dirt blowing in the air with todays modern farm practices. Back then everyone farmed with maximum tillage, and when their crops in Oklahoma failed, they tilled the land again and planted a different crop in hopes that it would rain and start their seeds. It didn't rain, the ground therefore blew away because there was no leftover stubble from previous crops. Not a problem with notill farming practices. They would now days spray the original crop and then plant the new crop, leaving all the previous stubble there.
I have seen droughts and wet years. I have seen insects become invasive and then slowly they cycle out.
Last winter we had a blizzard here in SD in The beginning of November and the snow never melted until Mid May. I was wishing for global warming.

to think that our human adventures cant affect our climate is just silly to me.. but when u consider that from the worlds total co2 emmisions only like 2% comes from humans driving cars then the industry have alot to redeem for theire actions.. macdonnalds emit a whole lot more from theire burger industry..
but we r in a natural cycle of changing global temperature and what impact we humans have on our natural enviroment has so much bigger significance than at any other time.... when u get to a balance point a few % of change induced by us humans is gonna make a difference.. but the hysteria of modern enviromental groups wanting your money and moral support is just out of the ballpark.. and we can change out enviroment crucially just by making a few small changes that isnt really gonna change much for every day life.. but dont blame every day citizens, cos they use watever technology thats redily available, blame industry that rtefuse to change cos they save 20 cents producing a product the "old fashioned way":P

Ken, you really have a handle on this stuff. You explain it well, better than most. Saves me time. What is your education background? Good, apparently.

If you just read what this guy writes with an open mind, you might just get it.

Chad-

I too am VERY interested in the hunting practices of the Paleo-Pagans.

If you are interested in learning about Paleo-Pagan hunting cultures, I can suggest some good sources.

In paleo-pagan cultures only the clergy caste knew how to read and write, so first hand sources were never very plentiful. Unfortunately, when the Christians took over Europe, they systematically burned as many of these scrolls as possible. They claimed they wanted to “protect” people from Pagan gods who, of course, they now claimed were “demons”. A few survived and were transcribed into books by monks, but most if not all of those were burned during the inquisition.

As for historical sources, there are a few cases of Roman scholars venturing north into “heathen” lands and writing about what they saw. The most commonly available is a book Julius Caesar wrote on a military conquering campaign in 44 BCE, “De Bello Gallico”. It's an interesting read, but of course, keep in mind it is written with a heavy bias. Caesar knew nothing about their culture, and didn’t much care to learn because he viewed them as inferior, he jumps to a lot of conclusions that a modern anthropologist would not.

Other great sources are Celtic, Greek and Norse mythology. How the characters behave in their stories can tell us a lot about how they lived. Again, be mindful of bias in the translation and editing of these stories. A lot of them were transcribed by medieval monks and 17th/18th century scholars who (often intentionally) demonized or monothe-ized Pagan spiritual practices.

Lab you are 100% right. there may be change but there is no proof that it is not natural. Cap and tax will ruin the economy. The cattle gas tax is set to be enough that all profit in a cow is taxed away from you. The average profit for a cow in my area is around $100 dollars a head after all the expenses. They want to put an additional $90 tax on them and make my profit $10 dollars. What will happen? Farmers and Ranchers out of business, government ownership of crop land like the banks. That equalls terrible food prices. If you wish for this you deserve it. Watch fox news.

What makes you so sure that global warming is a bad thing? Maybe crops will grow better because of more moisture and warmer temperatures. How do you know that it will be worse? There is no reason to fret. The earth has cooled and warmed always and always will. Not much you can do about it but live.

I would like to know why the salmon runs of kings and chum in the Yukon River system are doing so poorly. It is over 1800 miles to the first dam on the Yukon. Read the Anchorage Daily News, adn.com, to find out about this run. When salmon are out in the ocean a tremendous amount of uncertainty determines their fate. Just knocking down dams will not save any system. It probably will help.
As for climate change, Dr Spencer, of the U of Al at Huntsville, is the designer of and in charge of the sat. temperature program for the US, and Dr Grey, the U of Co scientist who heads up the hurricane forcasts every year, would be two notable individuals who don't drink the Algore kool aid. Climate change is happening, but whether or not its manmade is unknowable untill we get more data. The 1930s were extemely warm, what caused the temps of that decade? Be wary of the Cardiff Giant.

Its interesting to me to see how so many F&S people disagree with the NY Times and the rest of the main street media when the issue is gun control, but ask for another glass of kool aid please, when it comes to the global warming issue. Scientists are afraid to publish because of the political and financial pressure that can come down on them if they are not politically correct. I stated that Yukon River salmon are not doing well even though there are few people along the Yukon and no dams for 1800 miles. I also stated that global warming could be more of a natural issue rather than a man caused issue and people became ballistic. I warn of goverment imposed "solutions" that limit your right to freedom, and the Algore kool aid brigade begs to be forced to conform. As an individual I live in the most conservationist manor that I can afford, but I warn you guys, when Cap and Tax passes, you are going to have less control over your lifestyle. You are going to have less money in your pocket because energy is going to at least double in cost. Think twice, vote once.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MAN MADE CLIMATE CHANGE, AND I THINK ALMOST EVERY ONE ON THE WEBSITE AGREES. I have not seen any change in the climate and even if their was their have been changes in clikmate forever. Any respectable scientest who hasnt been swayed by constant propoganda of an unproven theory's showing poloar bears swimming and rambling on about very arguable points. And the climate has even decreased in the last few years, even though accroding to carzy people puting propoganda out their it should be ten times hotter and is we follow their plan to stop global warming it would be hotter than now. SO WHY DONT YOU HELP YOURSELVE TO A FRIGGIN SCIENCE BOOK