Rule #4: If your the President of the United States keep your mouth shut if you don't know what your talking about.

Great story-
I too do not text while driving,go the speed limit and check all of my lights making sure they are operational as to not get pulled over while carrying.

I re-call one time,before I had my CCW permit, I was taking my youngest son deer hunting, and I had my .44 in the area of the back seat on the floor. We were getting pulled over at a sobriety check-point,and I reached onto the back floor board and grabbed the gun and laid it on the dash, in plain view of the police officer.

My young lad asked if I was crazy,I said "we'll see on the other side of the check-point." The officer sttopped me and asked where I was headed as I told him "deer huntin'!"

He said he had some free time on the week-end and he was taking his son too,as he spied the hand gun on the dash. "Have a safe week-end," was his last comment,and off we went with my son lookin' bewildered.

buckhunter - you assume the rules were written on a teleprompter. But maybe they were and the teleprompter malfunctioned.

When I was a kid my parents told me a few basic rules when dealing with the police.

1. Be polite.
2. Do as your told.
3. Remember rules one and two.

It's worked out just fine.

About 12 years ago I took off a few days to work on the house, patching and painting kind of stuff. sometime in the early afternoon, I heard a siren in the distance, it was an alarm of a house a few doors down the street. I had my CWP and I walked down with my cell phone to see if there was any trouble. the driveway was empty but the front door was wide open so I called 911. A very polite deputy arrived, interviewed me while her backup entered the home. I soon realized I was a possible suspect, by her questions, but I remained calm, provided my ID, and after a few minutes they were confident I had nothing to do with the break in and Let me go back to my painting. If I had gotten upset at their questioning of me, I may have been searched, the revolver discovered,etc. Now I had a CWP, but things could have gone ugly fast if I did not swallow a little pride and been polite.In hindsight I knew they were just doing their jobs. sometimes an ego is a dangerous thing.

a Ph.D will never replace common sense...

Somewhere in his education Mr.Gates must have learned that its perfectly OK to call a white police officer any name you want to as long as your in your on house. I think Harvard really ought to re-think his employment there! That man has to be the biggist idiot black or white on the planet!!

My typical involvement with the PO LEECE goes like this. They pull me over. I roll down my window and put out my hands. As they approach I say "Officer I have my handgun on the seat next to me/dash." unless it's hunting season, then I add "shotgun and rifle in the back" They immediatly are put at ease as they now KNOW they are dealing with a law abiding, and no nonsense individual, and often don't even look at my liscnce- just say, Hey , take it easy, slow down/clean off your lisemce plate/ whatever.
That said, I had on ereally bad experience, where on my way home from Christmas someone saw the M4 variant in my jeep in the worst traffic imaginable and called the cops who BLOCKED 3 LANES OF THE INTERSTATE AND WITH 2 CARS FORSED ME INTO THE VACANT LANES. They then drew down on me and my wife and my 10 month old son. WE were drug out of the jeep bodily while being covered by very nervous cops- who left my infant son in the jeep unattended for 45 minutes while they ran the numbers on all the guns I had with me- 2 deer rifles and the M4. Lo and behold they were all legal, and it was a HUGE goat rope. My wifes Grandmoter drove by as this was going on (everyone else in our families saw it on the news later that night.) We recieved written apologies from the police department in question, but that doesn't fix it. does it. I hate people who are such busy bodies that they call the cops because they no someone has a gun in the vehicle- as if thats illegal. Sorry, I still get pissed off about this event.

In my short existence on this earth I have found that there are very few highly educated people with common sense. Common sense is the least common of all the senses.

As a retired New York City cop I have to tell you that when I went out on patrol, either on foot or in a radio car, you [ anyone not wearing a funny blue suit ] was considered the enemy until proven differently. It's sad but that's how it is in this world of ours. But then I"m here to write this, unlike my sister's husband. Most cops that I knew, however, support the Second Amendment.
The professor's arrogance is what got him in trouble and he was arrested for disorderly conduct not breaking and entering. Like Dave says "keep your mouth shut" and smile.

I don't know if you were kidding or not about the cop telling you that he wanted to take you to the woods and give you a beating, but whether the cop was joking or not, I don't think he has any business saying anything like that to anyone. I sure hope they don't joke with blacks in the same way, because I am sure it wouldn't be funny to any of them and rightfully so. Surely what Gates did and said to the cop wasn't right from everything I read and heard about this incident, but what the cop said to you isn't either. You took it as a joke, many others, both white or black probably wouldn't.

I've only had one run in the the police/swat team and it was when I was in the Navy stationed in Pascagoula MS. I had been working front gate watch and was in my full como's and had all of my gear on when I got home except my sidearm. I'd been home for around 30-45 minutes when I heard a knock at the back door of the house and when I pulled the curtain back there were 11 armed officers with guns drawn and pointed at me. Honestly it scared the hell out of me. I followed their orders to get on the ground legs crossed and hands behind my head etc. They came in and started questioning me and come to find out the people that I was renting the house from were wanted on several felony warrants and the local PD thought they still lived there.
But like said many times in this post, just follow directions and be polite things will go alot smother.
But yet like this that I was involved in, it will scare the hell out of you and especially when you have no idea what is going on and such.

gates is a good example of an educated idiot. Why would you get upset or be offended by an officer doing his job??

Yohan,

Thanks for finally posting something that can be read in 20 seconds or less.

Cops are people to, treat them with the respect you would want to be treated with yourself...like any group of people there are good ones along with the bad, but the majority are good people, and they put their life on the line everyday to protect our lives and property and get to deal with all the undesirable types in our society on a daily basis....so always keep that in mind.....

One morning while driving to a different country airport to ferry a plane for delivery, I was stopped by a small town police officer. I came over a small hill and there was the speed limit sign and the officer. I promptly stopped and waited, a little frustrated at myself. He came up to the window and started to ask for the license and registration, when I stopped him to inform him I ws a CWP holder and that I had a weapon. He thanked me! He took the license and registration back to his car to do the required checks and I waited fearing the worst. When he came back, he said since I was wearing my seatbelt and had no brake lights out he was going to give me a break if I promised to slow down. He also said he saw my "Marine" bumper sticker and the "Palin" magnetic sticker that I had cut free of the McCain section. I thanked him and drove on at the speed limits with respect for a great officer.

I always cooperate with anyone in the Law enforcement bidness ( a little Tejas lingo there).

But I did take a small risk once. Just got back from Viet Nam, bought a new Opel GT ( Looks like a miniature Corvette, but pretty quick too, driving from Colorado Springs (Home) to St. Louis (next duty station as well as the armpit of the US). Luckily in Uniform and the "I was there" ribbons and one or two attaboy ribbons.

Just past Hays KS, doing just over 105 MPH, got pulled over by the stereotypical big bellied County "Sherf",
who walked up and said How fast were ya goin BOY?

Being young and somewhat of a smart @$$ I looked up smiled real big and said " Just as fast as I could SIR! I have to be in St. Louis before morning.

When he stopped laughing he said. "Well son since you did not lie to me carry on, BUT I am gonna follow to the county line and for GAWD's sake keep it under 80 OK?"

Needless to say I did. ANd I always try to be cheerful
and polite to them even if I am only asking for directions, never EVER had a bad experience.

That Gates idiot is is a prime example of what Jerry Clower used to call "Educated beyond his intelligence" which seems to be most of those pinheads from "HAHVAD" & YALE.

Off my soapbox for now., enjoy all the comments except the ones form the pinhead liberals .

A fantastic blog, and I almost missed it! Man, this is the price you pay for working for a living!

Bob2u;

First, congratulations. -30 in two measily comments! I can't even get arrested on this website and you come along and break every record! Beginner's luck, I call it!

Second, you have a funny way of looking at the world. To say that police are trained to take verbal abuse is not the same thing as saying that you as a law abiding citizen have the right to abuse them. The officer did not strike Prof. Gates, shoot or OC him, or even respond in kind; he arrested Gates for disorderly conduct.

And it was right that he did. The officer was investigating a call received from a neighbor that someone's house was being broken into; upon arrival he had to determine that the man forcing the door owned the place. If the cop had found a white man forcing the door, do you think the cop would have driven away?

Never mind why, but I've seen a lot of people get arrested. And I've seen guys get themselves in trouble they could have walked away from if only they hadn't worked their mouths. It's a funny kind of blindness; stand right in a cop's face so that you practically spit on him, tell him he has not had a legitimate birth in his family for generations, accuse him of various sexual perversions, and directly compare him to certain barnyard animals, all in a loud, public voice. Then, when the cop finally spins you around and cuffs you for disorderly conduct, believe from the depths of your immortal soul that it is because the cop is a racist.

About all a cop has by way of self-defense in cases like these is disorderly conduct, and the officer that arrested Gates used it. The cop may have had thin skin or not (most college professors I've known have vast collections of idiomatic expressions at their disposal), but one thing is for sure; Gates was a jerk, and Obama should remember to read from the teleprompter.

Hey BEEKEEPER
You are a wise man.

So, to further the argument, if you (a law-abiding citizen, and you know it) are in your own home, or car, or yard, and feeling secure, are confronted by a uniformed officer who has NO idea what he/she is getting into or confronting, but they were called (maybe by a nervous or drunk neighbor or driver) to investigate, and they ask for ID, WHO should maintain the calm?
If your reaction is wrong (like Professor Gates), you may be embarrassed (and invited for a beer). If they are wrong or timid, they may be dead. They have to project authority to control whatever situation arises. We hope they are able to assess and act appropriately.
Regardless of the amount of training or experience they have, I will give law enforcement personnel the benefit of the doubt. Just as a firefighter analyzes a situation before entering a burning building, so do officers have to appraise an event. Highway Patrol officers call in info prior to approaching a car, not to know who they are about to harass, but to provide evidence if something goes terribly wrong.
Are there other-side ridiculous bad instances? Yes, of course, we've all seen the videos and stories.
But I will (and encourage others) to do the "yes officer" routine.
And for those who were troubled because their firearms were observed........get a brain. If you are on the road, case the guns, don't display them. Why would you have a baby in the car and a visible firearm?
Idiot.

Great story JOHN L, and it is good to see neighbors caring about their other neighbors!
I beleive this Gates thing was more to do about egos then race. EVEN IF A COP is being a putz, do as you are told and help defuse the situation instead of fueling the flames...cops get paid to arrest people, so it's just time on the clock for them.
Either way, cut them some slack it really is a crappy job at times.

I too learned a long time ago that you stay calm and polite with police, of course I work for my town so It is kinda like we are on the same team. I see again and again when people interact with police in a hostile manner they get the hostility right back. The average LEO is a mirror, give him scary and you'll get scary back in spades. I will admit to having "blonded" the police more than once (Yes I am a brunette), giving the LEO a little Blanche DuBois (playing a bit more vulnerable and silly than I actually am, but not flirting)This never works with LadyLEO's of course and the fact that my old Jeep only has a 4 banger and is physically incapable of speeding also helps.
Course I never do anything illegal either, which also means that I never view officers as adversaries but as public servants (and I have reported crimes in progress, then gone to court to provide evidence later).
Truthfully, I don't think Gates should have been arrested and while I think mouthing off to the police is stupid and counterproductive we do supposedly have freedom of speech (even to policemen). After all police are public servants, not public oppressors. While it is idiotic to insult armed men anyway, still being obnoxious is not yet illegal. One would think a scholar of Gate's stature would know better, the whole situation comes out making every person connected to it look bad. Still Gates was not Disorderly in his own house, and that elderly crippled old man was no threat to the large strong highly trained and well armed officer who arrested him.
I will say that the continuing paramilitarization of the police widens the gap between police and the people they are sworn to protect and serve. Cops tasered an elderly lady in the police station, earlier this year, as if she was a threat! People like Amadou Diallo getting shot 40 odd times for producing his wallet! It seems that the more armour, technology and torture devices we give the police the more frightened of the citizenry they become and the more likely we are to see "accidental" shootings, taserings, peppersprayings and beat downs. The American people are still the American people, but the police have changed a lot in many places. In small towns you still encounter officers in the old avuncular mode, but in cities there seems to be this "us and them" thing going on, a separation and basic distrust between the citizenry and the police. The distrust leads to mutual disrespect which is corrosive to the entire protect and serve ideal. Why should a policeman protect someone he dispises or conversely why should citizens expect protection from an officer they distrust?
I'm glad I live in a small town and I get to interact with small town cops. Everyone knows everyone else and as I have written before, real security is a tight knit community, not a nervous hand holding a gun.

Law enforcement officers are human beings like the rest of us, and for the most part, good people. They do a job that I would not have the patience or tolerance to do, and for that I treat them with respect. There is a distinct difference between being respectfully polite and kissing ass. Times have changed,(he damn sure brought "change") and political correctiveness is killing this country.
Michael

A worthwhile 27 minutes to anyone who wants to know why they should not talk to the police:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865

Bob2U,

I just voted your comment "not good". This verdict comes not because "I am racist" or "a bigot" or "a coward"; I just think your ideas are wrong. Your assumption that "closet racists" are spewing forth attacks on the professor and the president only betrays your own prejudices -- anyone who doesn't "THINK" like you is obviously a "racist".

If you want to be mad at somebody, be mad at your own liberal media. It is the liberal media that has hyped the race issue in the Gates case -- and our president played the card right along with them.

This topic was long in coming and there are many great posts to boot. I have many cop friends and have great respect for what they do. I couldn't do it and am glad there are those who will. Hats off you all you.

As for the Bob, everything I have read and listened to tells me that both may have over reacted. Prof Gates was asked repeatedly to provide ID to prove that it was his home/residence. He refused to do so and the officer had to contact other officers to verify that Prof Gates was who he proclaimed to be. Gate's actions were those of an elitist and how dare some blue collar dirtbag ever question who he is. It is my opinion that the officer took Prof Gates to the precinct to try and teach him some manners and respect for those sworn to protect him.

I doubt that any of this will affect Gates in the long run. He will continue to see police as the enemy because he can see it no other way. I also think if Gates truly had a case against the police he would have exercised it.

Maybe Havard profersors should take some of the same training police officers must take.

Regards,
Vic

"Seems to me a lot of the press, including the higher-ups,and President Obama has missed a golden opportunity to teach the American public "to know thyself" which includes our neighbors.

Just as the controversy surrounding the arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr. seemed to subside, including the main protagonists sharing a beer in the White House, more facts emerged.

The announcement by the neighbor who placed the 911 call that she did not mention race, even though it appeared in Sgt. Crowley's police report, ensures that the national media will be covering this story for some time to come.

Naturally, the story has captivated many as it touched upon elements of race, class, and gender. These issues all ignite great passion.

However intriguing the case and elaborate the various analyses offered, one critical aspect conspicuously missing from all of the debates is the issue of community relations. One could argue that the fact someone called the police implies a level of neighborly alertness."

Perhaps the officer coming to the scene, knew the neighbor didn't recognise the intruder,and quite possibly caused the responding officer to be doubly cautious,adding combustible matter to a situation already escalating in magnitude.

"At the same time we could ask: Why did the neighbor calling not recognize Mr. Gates? This last point refers to a larger issue in American society: the decline of social capital and civil society.

Civil society was famously described by Frenchman Alexis de Tocqueville in his book "Democracy in America" as he referred to America's rich associational life as key to understanding the strength of its democracy. Voluntary associations and organizations are important because they develop trust and a sense of community, i.e. social capital.

In plain terms, a strong civic community and social capital are critical elements in a society and basic prerequisites for a well-functioning democracy and a prosperous society.

Even more plainly, why don't we know our neighbors?
What has happened over the course of the last few decades is that Americans have become less civically engaged. Many measures of collective participation have fallen sharply, such as attending a city council meeting, joining the local PTA, or having a cup of coffee with your neighborhood association. How many people even know if their neighborhood has one?

In short, we spend less time on informal socializing and attending local political as well as cultural events, and more time by ourselves.

How does this relate to the recent controversy? Familiarity.
If someone had recognized the suspected robber as Mr. Gates trying to enter his own home, the current fallout would not have occurred.
It has been suggested that this controversy is a good "teaching moment" for Mr. Obama. Telling the nation the police "acted stupidly" serves as a reminder that presidents have to be careful speaking extemporaneously.

A better teaching moment for the president would be to focus on strengthening our civic ties, which would help develop stronger communal ties and in the process reduce racial tension - a perfect job designed for a former community organizer."

Get a lockable hardshell guncase and keep your weapons in it in your locked trunk.. and tell the 50 about it when prompted.. no officer is gonna object no matter what the state charter says.. its locked away and cant be used against them!

SL-
Another thought-
"si vis pacem, para bellum" Virgil.

i know a lot of cops including my dad the best thing you can do if getting pulled over even if you have a gun in your car is to remain calm if you look nervous the cops going to think something is up when they ask for your information if you have your ccw permit show them that if the gun is in your vehicle...also let them know where it is it will make them feel better if you say its in your center consel or glove compartment their going to keep a better eye on you, say its in you trunk and they won't be as nervous becasue you don't have easy access to it. be polite cops arnt out there to write tickets their soley out there to enforce and educate the public on laws. i got back from "explorer police academy" and we had a class on traffic stops they say only give a ticket if you feel you have to if someones talking on their phone the instructor said depending on their age you may or may not get a ticket. the cell phone laws are new so he said he only gives tickets to young drivers who learned about the new laws in drivers ed for those older people theres realy no way to know about the laws so he said he just informs them about the change and sends them on their way doing thins also makes cops more likeable so people will be willing to talk to the police with bigger crimes

Living in MA where Mr. Gates resides, I was appalled that the President of the United States spoke so callously about the Cambridge Police department. Even since he has hosted the officer and the offender at the white house for a beer he has yet to apologize for his earlier statement. Also Mr. Gates was trying to get arrested he knew exactly what he was doing. Living is a state that does everything to make hunting and fishing and anything to do with a weapon seem wrong. IF I was not born and raised here and my wife and kids were not so attached with our home, or if we could sell if for anything close to what we paid for it, I would be out of here. I am stuck in a loony left handed state.

yohan,
Thanks for the story.
Laughed all the way through (no LOL abbreviations here).
We've all been there, done that, or known someone who did, or something equally bad/stupid.
Hope you "thanked" the officer later, for the break.
And your wife if she forgave ya', as mine did.
Another thought, why is it that we as "Sportsmen" aren't supposed to strap our deer where someone sqeamish can see them, but are suprised when they are "outraged" by seeing our evil guns on display? (Unload and case 'em guys, or do CW properly).

Sorry I got a little long winded there. yohann I really did just about spray my morniotr with hot coffee reading yours GOOD ONE!!

yep, you have got to be polite with the cops. they have one of the worlds most stressful jobs. and who knows what their last call was. as for your
"run in" with the cop, you hanled it beautifully. you are just lucky he didn't have a cute blonde partner..... or were you???!!!

Jim im Mo,. & John L,.

Glad you liked the story ,.. but it wasn't a story ,.
it actually happend and just like I said ,.
And I DID see that cop later at a sports bar ( one of the first few ( since it all took place in mid 80's)
Guess more like a bar with 4 tv's rather than modern day sports bar,. but enouh to bring in guys who wanted to watch different sports in the same place .
We had a drink and shot the breeze ,.( some ) but he was with other off duty cops.
So,.understandably he had to keep it a little,.. arms length.
Never saw him after that which is very too bad.
Cause what I did get to know of him,. in those two brief encounters,. was enogh to tell me he was worth knowing

John L ,.. my wife at the time ( no more) didn't so much forgive me,. as beleive the supposed evedence,.. false as it was.
Especially when I gave her the card and said to call him if she wanted. Truthfully one of the few times I ever lied to her,.. But it saved a bad night from turning worse,(white lie ?) .and we all had a nice dinner,...rather than me "wearing" a nice dinner YUK YUK

Then again she was 1/2 pi$$ed off,.. most of the time.
At me,.. and depending on the day which 1/2 of all other carbon based life forms on the planet above the amebic( sp ?)level .

Being fair though and to some extent in her defense the other truth is. I've always been a little wild ,can't help it.
Maybe not even wild,..maybe just strung a little tighter than most .
Which simply is what it is .but also means $hit happens to me. or maybe not even to me but around me.

Now,. in my late 50's Im the same just do do a better job of shutting up when I hear some one start to mouth off about something they have almost know working knowldge of.

Like the other day listening to guy pop off about the markets,. Clearly in that regard this man and his female companion ( assume wife) did not know their collective A$$ from a square hole in the ground ,.
But is its their right to opine in what ever regard as long as they are not overtly infringing on the place, peace, comfort and or circumstance of others .
The scary part being,.. people like that get to vote, gets to vote,. get to vote ,.. get to vote ~~~.

Jim in Mo - Were all writers here ,. but your not
the first to suggst it ,..maybe someday I take a whack at it.

Best to all

Like the (polar) political far right and left ,.
Both sides Pi$$ me off just no end. Depending on my mood most of the time I leave it alone chalking it up to fools on a fools mission.
Other times I lock and load
You woud suppose someone with and IQ of 135 + could better avoid some the predicaments Ive maanged ,. but again ,.. is what it is .
(and Im not bargging ,.only reason I know about it is they thought I was "slow" when a youngster
Slow and destined for crime . yuk yuk
But becasue my mother was a school teacher they did a number of tests.)
NOT slow then or now ,.. just a tad wild

John L here's another one ,.this one spans decades

Long ago a beatifull ( and I mean drop dead knock out) blond,.. with the show girl legs anchles like they were carved out of marble big hooters and the right curves every where,.. had me in the marital cross hairs.
WE fooled around,.. and were and on for years
Finally said,.. we get married or we stop seeing each other.
Im ready if your not well we have to move on.
keeping in mind all this time I was a hunter and she knew it .

Looking back maybe I shoud have let her have her way ,.
My friends repeatedly asked me if I was stupid or gay,.
not wanting to slide the bit in my teeth for that one.
But then I was jkust too wild ( and imature( and didn't wanna settle down

Fast forward 15 years ,. closing in on 40 and recently divorced,
Who do I ruin in to ?? ( yup ) ,. she was just out of a relationship,.
So it starts again hot and heavy.Im thinkin
Hmmmm this might be the ticket

But one day she was poking arond my house ( like women looking at where they might be living do )
and found some guns and hunting suff ,
She came up the stairs looking alarmed
Looked at me and said do you hunt? ,.Said yes have all my life thought you knew that ,.as matter a fact I know you knew that ,.. from before.

She said well I thought mostly fishing ,..(whic was bs she knew I hunted)
But now that I see all these guns I see that you really do hunt .
Said yes I do my dear. (I had a sinking feeling )
Well,.. do you tie deer on your car and drive around . Said not quite ,. usually put them in a truck or trailer and drive them back back to process.
But you kill them and have them in plain sight so kids can see them ,. (thinking now this is strange cause she has no kids )
Well not what you might call for the purpose of children to see them but for sure some kids do see dead dear in my trailer.

Aparently there had been a kind of transmogrification in the 15 years. She was dead set against hunting on any level.
She did not say its me or the hunting ,. but it was easy to determine. Strife in camalot was upon us.

I finally said ya know before ,. your take on hunting s was pretty good ,or at les not bad . So Im confused
and I do not intend ot stop hunting
Whic means unless you stop with the cold war and or stop eating meat ,.( She loved a good steak and was a consistant meat eater ) either let it alone or we have a problem.

She said I can't stand hunting ( I very probbaly do now and alwasys did love you )I very probably do not have children beacuse it wasn't you.
But I simply cannot stand hunting. We had a few more conversations .
I went as far as offering to take her to Kansas stock yards ,. which to be hionest might make some hunters I know stop eating meant.
If they saw how some of the beef is treated .
But she declined ,.. what ever happened about hunting during the 15 years was permanent.
A few weeks later I went hunting which took care of that

Point is I dont get it ,..

Johan,
I'm in your same age bracket so can relate.
Trust me, your annual fishing/hunting licenses are much less costly, and way more enjoyable, than a marriage and divorce with someone (no matter HOW good lookin') who wants to change you.
Through no skill of my own but pure(?)luck I managed to marry a farmer's daughter who's put up with me lo these many years. Pheasants, quail, prairie chickens, whitetail and mule deer, and most recently wild turkeys
(and now the reported mountain lion or bobcat or two) have kept me on the straight and narrow to insure continued huntin' privileges. (All on the same property!)
Wildlife is way better than "the wild life".
And to make it even better, son has grown to be an even more avid and capable hunter than I ever was. I buy ammo, he keeps freezer full!
Life is good.

As a rule, politeness rules.
I used to go with different women (at different times) who loved to argue or did not like "killing Bambi" and I even dated one once, who when she found out I was in the Marine Corps, went ballistic, calling me a "baby killer" rapist and so on. I thought, if they act like this before we get married, what will it be like if we do get married? The resolution to each probably saved me a lot of money and sanity.

At this point what else can I add................
Except Dittos with only a couple of exceptions.

Few years back, I had got pulled over by a couple cops for having a tail light out. It was a friday and I'd got done with a game against a team that didn't get along too well with us. One of those schools that thought their s**t didn't stink. After the game, we went to a friends house to watch film for about an hour. At the time I still had my P.O.P lic. and it was close to midnight. When the cop started to come to the window I just naturally undid my seat belt to get my wallet and didnt think much about. He came up and asked if i knew why they were pulling me over and if i always drive with my seat belt off. I told em why i had it off, but i dont know if he thought i was just feeding him crap or not but he asked if I had any weapons in the car and I said no but he asked if he could check. I had nothing to hide so I told him go ahead. He told me to go by the cop car with the other officer. He turned out to be pretty nice guy. Talked about football a bit and turned out he'd played the same school in high school and didnt think much of them either. Well the cop checking my car came back with some between his fingers and asked where I got the weed from. Shoot my heart dropped, cause were i go to school we leave our cars unlocked its not real big. I've heard stories of the other team breakin windows, painting on cars and just other dumb stuff when we'd beat them in the past. So here i am thinkin just my luck someone put weed in my car and i got pulled over. I told em you got to be kidding me. He just starts laughing his ass off. Came closer and it was just a piece of paper or something. So after a good chuckle on my behalf they told me to get it fixed and get home before midnight.

Good posts all! John L. in my state weapons have to be visible and unconcealed. There is currently a great debate in areas of my state as to what defines concealed. Usually it is the current opinion or discretion if you will, of the arresting officer. If one is transporting a firearm, especially a handgun, and it is cased then it had better be a locked case. The local PD's taught for years that firearms had to be in plain view. Since the state passed CCW legislation, then all previous recommendations (by Law Enforcement) for transporting firearms went out the window. One officer may not consider a cased handgun in an unlocked case concealed while another officer may consider it concealed because the case is unlocked. I used to be a town police officer and even now I don't understand what is considered concealed and what isn't. I spoke to our county sheriff (whom I know personally from my LE days) and he also stated that whether or not a firearm is concealed or not concealed is the discretion of the officer. Locked in a case and out of reach is always good.
Personally I have made numerous stops where the occupants of the vehicle had a legally owned handgun up on the dash. I would usually advise them that I have no problem with it since it is not concealed however they may be stopped later by a different officer who may have a different opinion.
A good rule of thumb which has been observed through court cases is to ask oneself if the weapon is readily accessible. That was the benchmark I had observed used in the courtroom.

Clay Cooper
you are absolutely correct.

Were Professor Gates went wrong, the Police were called there to serve and protect Professor Gates, not to pursue and to harass.

The reason I didn’t pursue Law Enforcement is those like Professor Gates.

Go serve and protect yourself!

John R,
It sounds like your state is really confusing, and a citizen who wants to be law-abiding is really in a Catch-22 situation. Does it make a difference if it's a shotgun, rifle, or handgun? Or if it is, or isn't loaded?
I think I'll stick with my original argument, if you are transporting guns to/from the range, or hunting, or whatever, they don't need to be in the window. Just because you are legal, don't necessarily mean a particular act is smart.
If you are a CCW licensee, for your and others protection, you have to know the laws where you are.
On the flip side, one Sunday morning in a small town in California, while driving to get a morning paper, I was stopped, not for speeding but for not wearing a seat belt. Before even asking for license etc, the officer asked me if I had any firearms in the car! Being a fairly innocent looking character, and driving a used Olds Cutlass sedan, that caught me by surprise. While I do own plenty of guns, none were in the car with me, and I offered to let him look and to open the trunk.
While he could have legally given me a ticket for the seat belt issue, which he could not have in the state where I live, he let me just go.

wow. this topic grabbed everyones interest. good tips

SL if you knew me at all you would know that I am not afraid of ANYONE, I am just being prepared or were you unable to READ when I said that Teddy "Swimmer" Kennedy has killed mot people with his car than I have with any of my personal guns. NO ONE has ever known I was carrying and never will unless they ask, I have a legal concealed carry permit and I will shot it to anyone who asks (No one ever has) could this possibly be because people who know me trust me to behave in a responsible manner? Obviously you don't so you are the insecure one I believe.

Also you are the one in danger if some 6'7' 300 pound a-- hole decides he wants what you have. And unless a policeman happens to be there at the time you will probably wish you too had a weapon handy. Don't ttell me you have a black belt in tai kwon do of any of that stuff because Smit & Wesson trumps martial arts at any time.

I wish you well, but you really should if you do not talk to people who have been victimized or lost friends and family to guys with weapons and they had no defense.

I won't answer you in print again or in person ever .

Moishe-
I think this SL guy is getting your posts and my posts confused, but maybe he is living on a different planet than the rest of us. Either way, putz is such a good descriptive word when one gets tired of saying troll, don't you agree? Enjoyed your responses, and agree all the way!
crm

Well well,.. I did wounder
Still it never fails
If one waits long enough one will usually observe that which one waits for,. if one waits in the correct place.

Have been waiting for Poppa to uncork one ,..
and he did

Very well done Poppa ,. hope you look back to see this .
I was right ,.. like it when Im right ! YUK YUK

I see a very sad thread running through most of these posts. The fact that LEOs are nervous or apprehensive about approaching normal, everyday citizens because they "might
" have a firearm. This is symbolic of a bad tendency of LEOs to fall into the "us agin them" mindset that is common in a few LEOs, and leads to hostility on the part of the cop, which leads to hostility on the part of an honest, law abiding citizen. In the citizen's mind, his or her taxes are paying the LEO to "protect and serve." By the LEOs actions, he is conveying that the citizen is a criminal, or guilty until proven innocent. The vast majority of the vehicle stops made by LEOs are routine traffic stops for minor violations. Hostility breeds hostility. An honest, upright citizen that meets the LEO halfway, exhibits politeness and a cooperative
attitude, and is reasonably civil in his conversation, can usually expect a warning, or at worst, a ticket for the offence. Sadly,
there are exceptions to the politeness,cooperative attitude and civil conversations on both sides of any meeting between LEOs and civilians. When a firearm is introduced into the mix, situations can go from bad to FUBB in a heartbeat. I don't pretend to have answers to all the issues, but have found that getting to know your local LEOs and being as polite as possible rarely hurt.

Bob2U
"The encounters with police by gun owners and Mr. Gates are not governed the same rules."
Nonsense! The officer has no idea who is armed or unarmed when responding to a burglary in progress call.

"I can tell you that the officer was out of line and NOT Mr. Gates."
Obviously you can tell us anything you like. However, your comment is opinion and still more nonsense. Obviously you’ve not read the police reports and listened to other officers and witnesses who were actually on the scene. The officer entered the house, determined that Mr. Gates was the legitimate occupant of the residence and that neither Gates nor anyone else was no under duress.

"Police officers are taught to ignore verbal tirades. Mr. Gates was in his home without a weapon and not posing a threat to the officers or the public."
Correct and that's why the officer was leaving the residence and actually outside when Gates continued his verbal assault. Not one witness says that the officers responding to the 911 call retaliated in kind to Gates verbal abuse.

"The situation is not the same as someone who either possesses a firearm or is where a weapon is readily accessible."
How does the officer know the person he is dealing with possesses a firearm or has one readily accessible? Are we now requiring police officers to be clairvoyant? Criminals don't usually volunteer weapons information during an interview. The officer generally finds out about the weapon when he's had the weapon stuck in his face or after the first shots have been fired.

Mr. Gates rights were most certainly NOT violated. He was NOT arrested in his home; he was arrested outside the home. And he was given ample opportunity to shut his mouth. Instead he kept badgering the officers and making a scene and disturbing the peace of the neighborhood.

The charges were quickly dropped NOT because they were bogus; they were dropped because the DA elected to not prosecute the case. That was done more for political expediency than anything else.

"Irrespective of race, a citizen has a right to be free from unwarranted intrusion and arrest."
Absolutely! But in this case, the officers had every right to investigate a reported burglary in progress, to ascertain who was in the home and their right to be there, and also to make sure that there wasn't someone being threatened by an unknown intruder. That’s exactly what we pay them to do. They did so and were outside the residence when Mr. Gates’ tirade continued. Gates is the lone individual who escalated the situation.

“You and Mr. Gates have the right to ask questions and not fear arrest. The choice is not between a law enforcement officer killing you or living in encounters with the police.”
Where did this piece of nonsense come from? Are you implying that the officers responding to the call threatened to kill Mr. Gates? Where do you get off escalating this to a life-or-death incident? It’s exactly YOUR kind of inflammatory gibberish that needs to be avoided.

“You can indeed mouth off if you so chose. It is not a crime as long as it is not accompanied by any physical threat.”
Actually, it IS a crime if your mouthing off disturbs the peace and quiet your neighbors have every right to expect and, according to Massachusetts law, your mouthing off:

- causes public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or
- recklessly creates a risk thereof
- engages in fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or
- creates a hazard or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose.

“Mr. Gates did not get himself arrested, unless of course you mean a black man should just kow tow and mumble, "don't hit me massa."
That is YOUR suggestion and I find it equally offensive. Gates followed the officers out of the residence and made a conscious decision to escalate the situation. I suspect a black police officer would have acted exactly the same way in responding to this call and investigating. What would Mr. Gates have done differently then? Think about that and now tell me who the racist really is.

You sir appear to be as much of a racist and a bigot as Mr. Gates, and obviously not much of a lawyer.

The story I told was only half the story to prove how racist things can get. The half story was, Crack me up!
I just love it when you pull a van full of South of the Boarder over and the first thing they say, NO ABLA ENGLISH! I reply, “What part of your going to jail for 72 hours until I find out who you are if you don’t ABLA ENGLISH! I’m sorry Officer! Ya" I'm sorry to! Ticket for speeding 72 in a 55, expired tags and registration and no proof of insurance! Have a nice day!

___________________

Now the full story!
Sitting broadside on the side of the road out in the wide open for all to see running radar a van flies by us at 72 in a 55 mph, so we check them out.
The van was full of South of the Boarder and the first thing they say, NO ABLA ENGLISH! And there grinning in the back like Chester’s Cat.
I asked the Driver for license, registration and proof of insurance. He only had his license expired tags and registration and no proof of insurance. So I walked back to the unit and after a minute, the driver steps out and when he does he knocks out a small package of marijuana!
O’boy! Now it getting interesting because the driver knows we seen it fall and stands there knowing he’s been caught. As the Officer and I walked up he says NO ABLA ENGLISH! I reply, “What part of your going to jail for 72 hours until I find out who you are if you don’t ABLA ENGLISH! I’m sorry Officer! Ya" I'm sorry to! We gave him a choice because it was a small personnel amount the choice was given, either goes and poor it out behind yonder bush or go to jail. Of course he gladly picked pouring it out behind the bush.

The Officer I was with was Latino and didn’t have a since of humor like I did and issued a citations for speeding 72 in a 55, expired tags and registration and no proof of insurance. A moment later the driver’s wife shows up with proof of insurance and current registration, it was in her purse, good place for it.
The Officer voided the tickets and gave a warning for speeding because the party decided to cooperate.

Why did I tell half of the story at first?

Because all of you fell in the trap believing all Cops are bad!

As a retired New York City cop I have to tell you that when I went out on patrol, either on foot or in a radio car, you [ anyone not wearing a funny blue suit ] was considered the enemy until proven differently. It's sad but that's how it is in this world of ours. But then I"m here to write this, unlike my sister's husband. Most cops that I knew, however, support the Second Amendment.
The professor's arrogance is what got him in trouble and he was arrested for disorderly conduct not breaking and entering. Like Dave says "keep your mouth shut" and smile.

Moshie-
Don't want to lose you as a contributor to this blog- Please reconsider the Kel-tec P-3AT. From what I have seen and read, it ain't very reliable, and people with as much sense as you have are too valuable to lose! How about a .38 Special revolver or a .45? Even a high end .380?
PS, When were you across the frog pond to Viet Nam?

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/30-07-2009/108517-racism-0
this is how pravda reported this incident. makes u think huh..
And my sweatheart, even though we r not yet married at first thought hunting and killing animals was a cruelty in itself i took my time to explain the facts about modern animal husbandry and the way we off our prey to her, and finally she agreed that getting shot by a well placed shot is preferable to being herded all your life in unatural enclosures and so on and then being forced into a processing plant to be put down by unfeeling machinery etc.. is much worse.. 95 percent of all hunters i know are basicly enviromentalists but have a different approach than peta and other hysterics.. just the glean in the eyes of those guys show them to be completely insane the lot of them.. but im prattling now.. plainly speaking, treating others with respect will make them respect u, but this police officer made a mistake.. when dealing with the police, treat them with respect but say as little as possible if u r doing anything wrong and know it.. u might just get off with just a talking to.. but police are people too and will respond as such if u treat them as such doing a difficult job..
peace out....

crm30/06 I keep thanking you for kind words it seems here and in another blog, this other person show's his ignorance at every turn, I am a member of a large group of fellow Jews , who after long and successful careers in the military where we learned to enjoy shooting sporta as well as hunt for game. Also many game animals can be kosher for eating deer and other venison for instance Birds that do not partake of carrion ( you may have to explain carrion to the other fellow) However, rabbits and squirrel and other rodents are not, as well a any sort of pork . Also among Jews we offten use a few words such a putz knudnick etc in a friendly jest. ( I will admit I am not overly pius but hey who really is these days? Anyway I am too tired and old to argue further.

Good point Matt, I always stop if I need to make a phone call, because it is stupid to be talking on the phone the or especially TEXTING it has caused far too many accidents and deaths.

Sure, the cop relaxed AFTER you showed him your CC permit. Do you think he thought nothing of that gun before you showed him the permit? I am surely NOT ignorant enough to know what the answer to this question is. Your CC permit allows you to carry that gun, to a cop you WILL be an automatic suspect with that gun until you prove to him otherwise. Let's not even get into what the rest of society might think. Why should they not be fearful of you, when you are obviously fearful of them? Just because you think you are an honest citizen means very little to anyone else.

As far as I know being rude to a cop is NOT an arrestable offense.
Am I wrong or doesn't the NRA apply the "Castle Doctrine" to law enforcement as well as regular folks. I know it was rightfully upset when New Orleans PD unlawfully confiscated legal firearms from citizens after Katrina.
While it sounds like Mr. Gates was being an A..hole, there were no apparent grounds to arrest him.
What would have been the harm if the Sgt. merely acknowledged Mr. Gates' behavior for what it was, & merely left.

crm3006, it is Moishe who is confused and not me. My reply about the cop becoming relaxed only after you showed him your CC permit was directed to YOU and not him. Or maybe you are just as confused? Troll? If you think all hunters and gun owners think exactly like you guys, you are sadly mistaken. If ALL hunters and gun owners believed everything the NRA and such groups are saying they would have way more members. There are 20 million+ hunting licenses sold in the US each year and over 60 million gun owners yet the best the NRA could do is get 4 million or so members. They are a minority even amongst gun owners and hunters and the sooner you guys realize this the better.

I think it might do us all a little good to read about this more and discuss it. To that end, I suggest that whoever wrote this blog, Mr. Petzel or Mr Bourjaily, could read the actual police report by Officer Crowley's and then perhaps you could give an ounce of credit to the 58 year old man's side of the story.
"Every truth has four corners: as a teacher I give you one corner, and it is for you to find the other three."
[Confucius ]
So make some room in your mind for the possibility that a tired 58 year old man comes home from a long flight. His front door needs a good shove, which he needs a hand with as he walks with a cane. So the taxi driver helps. Moments later the police pound on the same closed door urgently responding to a crime in progress and the officer is suspicious and perhaps rude.
The black man unaware that someone has called the police is upset that maybe the only reason the cops are there is because he is a black man in a nice house.
Is it right then to accept the police officer's side as true and begin to assail the black man as "ignorant", "lacking common sense", or most importantly that he is complaining [screeching] about something that doesn't exist...racism. That his protests are a bunch of "s**t".
In the media, there have been countless stories of black men stopped because of only their race...not in the 1950s...but this past year and the year before...and the year before. I have seen it and you have too.
A friend of Dr. Gates wrote an op-ed that you might want to give a glance at in, God-forbid, the N.Y. times to at least get an understanding of the possible other corners of the truth. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/01/opinion/01herbert.html?em
I take exception to your attack on Dr. Gates Your comments give the impression that "the uppity n****r" got what he deserved for mouthing off to the man." Like Medgar Evers got himself shot and Rodney King got himself beaten or do you mean like Robbie Tolan got himself shot in his own driveway just this past year?
Your attack took the guise of advice for gun-owners in dealing with the police...sadly it lacked any valuable advice.

" I'm referring, of course, to Professor WIlliam Gates, who managed to get himself arrested in his own home because he apparently mouthed off to the cops. Professor Gates was ignorant of, or chose to ignore, the very same rules that all smart gun owners should abide by."

The encounters with police by gunowners and Mr. Gates are not governed the same rules. Having defended law enforcement officers from lawsuits based upon alleged violations of civil rights, I can tell you that the officer was out of line and NOT Mr. Gates.

Police officers are taught to ignore verbal tirades. Mr. Gates was in his home without a weapon and not posing a threat to the officers or the public. The situation is not the same as someone who either possesses a firearm or is where a weapon is readily accessible.

The arrest was idiotic by the police officer and violated Mr. Gates civil rights. After Mr. Gates identified himself as a resident of the home, the police were obliged to leave. The fact that the charges were trumped up was proven when they were quickly dropped.

Irrespective of race, a citizen has a right to be free from unwarranted intrusion and arrest... especially in his own home. [ Even if he is black] You and Mr. Gates have the right to ask questions and not fear arrest. The choice is not between a law enforcement officer killing you or living in encounters with the police.

You can indeed mouth off if you so chose. It is not a crime as long as it is not accompanied by any physical threat.

Mr. Gates did not get himself arrested, unless of course you mean a black man should just kow tow and mumble, "don't hit me massa." That appears to be your suggestion and it is offensive.

Your argument that blacks should shutup or get themselves arrested in their own home as an example of how to deal with an encounter with law enforcement if you have a gun in your possession is bad advice at its best and smacks of racist bigotry at its worst.