I only open carry out in the forest where it's not so unusual. I think your point is spot on. I plan to get a CCW permit and when I have a CW no-one's ever gonna see it unless the s**t has hit the fan.

And now, hopefully not hijacking the thread too much...

Dave you once asked what's the right rifle for hunting T.Rex. As it happens, science fiction writer L. Sprague de Camp wrote a story about that very subject, in "A Gun for a Dinosaur." It's a really good story, mostly about the two hunters involved and their persona. I'll let you read it to discover de Camp's answer to the question "How much gun for a dino?"

;)

I went grocery shopping this morning at the local market. It was the usual scene, patina'd pickup trucks from the '70s with atleast one pup in the bed and an 'occupied' gunrack in the back window, doors unlocked. You say 'Hey' to the owner who's putting a cold 6 pack and some steaks in the back and think nothing of it. I read these articles of literal 'gun-nuts' [with a negative connotation, & no pun intended] from the coastal states and wonder what ever happened to common sense and logic and thank god for the defenders of OUR RIGHTS.
Welcome to Montana. Wake up America!
Don't lose your common sense, don't lose your guns, and sure as hell DON'T GIVE UP YOUR/OUR RIGHTS!

Carrying it for all too see is just asking for problems. Sure its your legal right to do so, but just save yourself the hassle and put in in your pocket or under your jacket to keep it out of sight. It's not that hard.

Mjenkins1, what gun do you carry? I know there is no way my hand gun is not fitting in my pocket. Then you have the problem of summer time and 95 degree days and wearing more layers than you have to is just asking for a heat stroke. Concealing a pistol that will affectively do it's job is not that easy. I don't know what everyone carries but I have to carry mine on my side.

Dad used to say "Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD." I think it applies especially well here.

It is mostly fear that spawns gun control legislation. The limit of many peoples understanding of firearms does not go past the 6 o'clock news where they get to hear nothing but the worst news about guns the media can find across the country. It's no wonder so many people are afraid of firearms and many people who do not own one fear them. The groups that are legally and safely displaying firearms openly are showing all that guns are safe in the hands of an everyday citizen.

Carrying an open firearm in Ohio is legal but considering the ease to which an officer can slap a person with a disorderly conduct charge or inciting panic charge it makes you wonder if it's truly legal.

The less we open carry the more likely this freedom will be taken from us. To which I say we should make a conserted effort to carry openly before we have no choice.

This movement on the "left" coast is partially the result of the almost Draconian difficulty in getting a CCW in CA, even when you have a LEGITIMATE reason. These folks are trying to draw attention to that fact, and other crazy CA gun laws.

CA is a May Issue state and the decision is left to city law enforcement first, then country A coupla years a go, a newly elected sheriff in the county north of me, arbitrarily cancled ALL the CCW permits, without review. He had that authority and excercised it.

In my county, it make take years to get a CCW, if at all. Furthermore, any out-of-state CCW is not honored.

These guys aren't whack jobs, they're trying to change perceptions and inform, and maybe, change the law for the better.

I never open carry, it is simply an "invitation" for some 1/2 arsed punk to "try" you.

Remember, CA is the state that will(july2010) require pistols to have microstamping as well as fingerprints for pistol ammo purchases and ban on internet/catalog sales of pistol ammo and pistol ammo component sales.

These folks are doing SOMETHING rather than rolling over and biting the pillow.

A little off topic but may be worth noting. The Ohio Revised Code section pertaining to conceal carry uses the word "handgun" and "firearm" interchangeably. This has raised my suspicion that this minor play on words was not an accident.

I was wondering how each state defines "firearm" and "handgun" and do separate laws exist for each?

Dave...this was the best thing i have read in a long while. very practical. should be read at every conealed carry training course. your the best.

There was in story that I read about from GAcarry.org a few weeks back. I can't find the story so I will tell it the best I can myself. This happened here in GA, Two guys were sitting in a Waffle house at about 2 am. They were both openly carrying handguns on their sides. This guy came into the Waffle house to case the place for a robbery. His friends were sitting in a car behind the Waffle house waiting for the "all clear". Well they guy that went into the Waffle House saw two armed citizens and called his buddies out back and said that the robbery was a "no go" because of the openly armed men in the Waffle house. At the same time a cop noticed that this car had been sitting in the dark for some time behind the Waffle House. He went over to investigate and found the car full of men with loaded firearms. he called for backup and arrested everyone. The police later found out that the only thing that kept the men from robbing the Waffle House was the two men sitting at the counter openly carrying their guns. Often openly carrying a gun will detour crime or stop it before it begins. Robbers are very seldom going to commit a crime where they are not a sure as they can be of success. Meaning if there is a chance for them to get hurt or run into someone who is armed they will not commit the crime. Criminals want an easy target not someone who will fight back.

I'm a deputy sheriff. If your laws say that you can carry openly, then have at it as far as I'm concerned. The laws in my state don't allow for open carry. It's something I don't have to deal with, so I'm just guessing as to how I would react. We're required to carry off duty, but we are also required to carry concealed. The main reasons are 1. the Sheriff doesn't want his guys showing an over abundant presence while in plain clothes (country voters don't like to be hovered over by the "government" constantly), and 2. for officer safety. A cop, with his badge and gun on his hip, walking into an armed robbery are at a disadvantage because they know exactly who you are. If they don't see the gun and badge, then you have the advantage.

That would be my concern for carrying openly. Concealment is a tactical advantage. If you've got a gun on your hip, and the local crack head decides to hold up the local Stop-n-Rob while you're standing in line, you run the risk of a nice lil Coup de Grace to the back of the head because he knows you could stand in his way. And don't start with the "Well if he sees you have a gun then he may not rob the place to begin with." argument. Crack heads don't exactly think before they act... they just jump in head first and start shooting when it goes south. Now if you're carrying concealed.... and the crack head comes in with his Raven Arms .32.... he has no clue that a better trained person, with a better weapon, is present.

So if you can carry openly, that's great, go ahead. I think I'll stick to keeping mine covered.

Great point Dave just because something is legal doesnt mean you should push the envelope. A lot of what we enjoy in the outdoors may be offensive to some people.A little common sense goes a long way, our dress and manners in public places is important if we want the non shooting non hunting folks to see us as sportsmen and not blood thirsty cave men. Keep the gun under your coat,wipe the deer guts off the tailgate.

Since I reside in a third world country called Wyoming some things are different than the remainder of the US. It is not extremely unusual to see someone walking around Walmart with a revolver and sometimes a pistol on their side. Actually few locals think much about it since they probably have a Model 29 tucked in their jacket anyway. Like Mike Diehl I only openly carry in the forest mainly because its legal, bears can attack quickly, and only if I am not wearing a coat. In town the pistol is concealed for which I have a license. Similiar to Mr. Petzal I have recently expressed to myself some mental concern regarding these coffee shop open carries. This sort of behavior can do nothing but cause trouble for us gun nuts. I figure this recent rash of open carry is as much of a pseudo-macho thing as it is a demonstration of rights.

I can vouch for Beekeeper being a quiet man!

Craigkindlesmith had a great point. If you CAN carry concealed, why carry openly? To paraphrase Calvin Coolidge, I have never offended anyone with my gun who didn't know I HAD a gun. Being underestimated by your attacker is God's gift to the defender, and having a gun nobody knows you have it definitely being underestimated. Best of all, it subdues crime if the bad guys have no idea who is armed if ANYBODY could be. If you have to carry an N frame S&W with a 6" barrel, you might have to carry the thing on your hip. If you are in the woods and nobody cares anyway, you might as well carry the thing on your hip. But for everyone else, carry concealed in a holster; it keeps the bad guys guessing and the old ladies (of both sexes) from getting their panties in a twist.

I hear you Beekeeper, I cary a Glock 23 in .40 cal too. I am like you, I don't want to have to shoot someone either but if it comes down to them or me (or one of my family members) I would rather it be them. I know I tend to be a little more confrontational than laid back, I imagine a few people on this website already know this about me. I also realize that carrying requires a great deal of self control and situational awareness. Being quiet and firm is something I am still working on, well the quiet part anyway!

"Walk softly and carry a big stick". Teddy Roosevelt had it right. Predators stalk their prey. Crininals do also. I do not want to advertise that I carry lethal force because I do not want to be the first target in a robbery or mass murder. Bank and store robbers will do a walk through proir to a robbery to make sure that the whole PBA is not in there cashing their pay checks. Same with people bent on a murderous rampage. Who you you think they are going to take out first? The oviously armed who can fight back. If they see an armed person they are going to assume you are a cop and shoot you first. Your best bet will be to keep a low profile and blend in. Your chance of survival will be much greater when you get the drop on the human predator. When he thinks that he has bunch of "placid sheep"and lets his guard down,you will have the means to turn the tables and become the alpha hunter and pounce. I feel for the citizens who can not legaly carry the means to protect their selfs and family. They should work in their state to scure that basic human right. The Martial Arts master does not have to advertise his abilitys because he is secure in his mastery of that art, so should the conceled carry handgun owner.

I don’t and won’t “carry” unless there’s Sci-Fi Desolation and post-apocalyptic warriors running amuck.

Guys, please just get your ccw's. This is a matter of us being our own worst enemy.

3 years ago, I walked into one of the Stab N' Grab for a coke in a town where I went to High School. I was packing my 45 openly and the Owner behind the counter recognized me and we got talking. She remembered me at age 18 walking into the old store packing my 44mag Ruger Super Blackhawk and said it sure would be nice to have me back in town, allot of trouble as come about since then. But times have changed too and I don’t openly pack as I used to. Phoenix Az, at night I would walk my German Shorthair Pointer every night packing my 45 openly and all the neighbors welcomed it and the Police Department too. But once again, that was yesterday and times have changed. Today, I carry concealed and some of the Banks and Stores I go to do welcome it. But I wouldn’t dare under today’s thoughts, feeling and how people especially Law Enforcement would react with open carry. All they need is someone to express a thought of possible robbery and here we go! Got $10,000? That is about what it’s going to cost you for being stupid including your Funeral!

I think much has to do with demographics; Mid west/western states are much more liberal, in my experience, while northern states get all anal about CCW carry.
All personal feelings aside; Many of us that carry firearms,legally, are not a normal threat to society.
--with the exception of the occasional "misfit",of course--
Anywho; I wouldn't carry in plain view unless I was on my own land, or moved back out west.

I live in Oregon where it is legal to carry openly, and I do if I am calling coyotes or hunting hogs. I got my CCW for the sole purpose of self defense and I carry almost everywhere I go. No body around me ever has the slightest idea that I have a gun on my person, for the reasons stated many times above. Why attract attention when you don't need to? The element of surprise is lost if the perp already knows you're armed. My earnest prayer is that NO body ever has to find out.

I could really go for that federal permit that almost passed last year or the the year before. All states recognize my WA State Driver's license; it would be good for the feds to establish reciprocity for CCW.

Had a guy ask me once, "Carney, do you pack heat even when you're preaching?" My answer, "Well, if any bad guys get past my wife, they'll find out!"

If you carry, do so discreetly because nothing good will come of "advertising" your weapon. An alarmed citizen who calls 9-1-1 because s/he saw a glimpse of a handgun can cause considerable expense. Much of this comes under officer discretion but, if a citizen is willing to make an issue of it, the situation can be interpreted as "brandishing a weapon" or "disturbing the peace". Hopefully, logic and reason will prevail, but there are no guarantees of that. Choose your carry piece and its holster accordingly; it should not be easily detectable by a telltale bulge. Draw no attention to your sidearm. If you need it, YOU know it's there, but a felon who has already made that observation will consider you a primary threat. Let surprise and proficiency be your ally.

Did not get the whole final paragraph so here it is.

I know there's been a lot of talk around the 300 Win Mag vs 308 around sniper circles. The Win Mag has a range "on a good day" of 1200 meters but some shooters complain of its abusive recoil that could lead to shooter flinch. The 308 is said to be less abusive but may not reach out to the same distances that the 300 does. I've never shot either, so I have no first hand knowledge, but that's what I hear.

Elmer, I fully agree with all you said, fortunately
for myself, I live in KS which Allows open carry, and I have done so in the past, I have never been arrested for doing so. BUT it scares the $%&^ out of some, and make the punks want to "TEST" you so I got a CCW peermit and keep 'em guessing.

Bob Brister said it another way- on Teddy Roosevelt's "Big Stick" theory-in his book "Moss, mallards and Mules"-- his character said something like this "Man who carries a big pistol don't often have to use it"--The Martial Arts comparison is also right!!

Wouldn't it be better if we approached this issue as a right and not something that requires governmental permission and worrying about whose permission is valid and where.
Vermont requires no "permission" to carry, concealed or openly. As a result Vermonters have no permission to carry anywhere else except Vermont because Vermonters can't get a "permit" (permission).

I travel alot and go into many places where carrying is not allowed (industrial plants, government buildings, etc) so I do not normally carry on my person. Also, most of my carry handguns are full size - 1911, PT92, Tracker 44 (Great carry gun!). When its cooler and I can wear a jacket or vest I have no trouble concealing my full size guns. But I have a desire for a concealable handgun so I talked with a retired LEO who runs a gunshop about what carry is practical for a 2" snubby or a micro 9MM. His response - get a .380 or .32. Either that or change the way you dress. If you are average size and dress normally, you will have trouble finding an accessable carry option for anything other than a "mouse gun". Think shorts and t-shirt during the summer. My carry gun will have to rise and fall with what I can conceal. In Arkansas its a "concealed handgun license"; not a handgun license. I don't have Clay's $10,000 for someone's nose getting out of joint.

country road

Good comments. The bad guys only need the flash-bang if the time comes, nothing more.

Many things have changed in this country over the last 3 decades because people openly "demonstrated" concerning their beliefs in their rights as U.S. citizens. Perhaps it is time for gun owners to aggressively demonstrate their right to keep and BEAR arms. The low IQ anti gun lobby certainly doesn't hide their beliefs and intentions.
The above statements of concealed vs. open carry all have merit; but the argument will become academic if we lose our 2nd amendment rights. I have a Texas Concealed Hangun License and carry mine concealed except when hunting, or working in my yard. I believe carrying it openly around my house lets any passing gang banger casing the neighborhood know armed citizens live here.
Open or concealed my .45 is like the American Express card; never leave home without it.

One of your best Dave. Like you, I got my carry permit 40-odd years ago in upstate NY. Those of us that enjoy firearms have to take into account how it may affect those who are unfamiliar with guns. Concealed carry, and no one knows you're caarrying a gun. In the northeast open carry will have the affect that you stated...it polarizes those who are neutral to become anti's. If I'm bushwacking through the adirondacks, open carry is fine...not in the city. In western states and rural areas open carry may be fine. A couple of the earlier posts offer a ton of common sense and the advantages of concealed vs open carry. Because you can doesn't mean you should.

Alot of you folks are discussing open carry vs CCW as though it was an optional choice. If it is optional in your state, guard that privilige well. Here in CA its almost impossible to get a CCW. Its a "may issue" state, but in practice, it might as well be a "no issue" state.

Thats the reason for the "open carry" movement on the west coast. We don't HAVE a choice. Its either open carry or not at all.

There are three things you folks need to understand. One, is that the police are not all good guys and are not always acting in YOUR best interest. Secondly, an overwhelming majority of them are not "gun experts" just because they carry them. Most cannot hit a Bull in the Butt with a Bass Fiddle in a shootout. How many tmes have we seen that? Finally, they are not responsible for your personal safety, only theirs.

I fully support law enforcement officers who are trying to do their jobs to the best of their abilities. I salute each and every one. But I refuse to turn over responsibility for my family's well being to them or anyone else except the Almighty.

Not a good idea to tell a cop in NJ that you're carrying, even if you have a permit. Particularly for a routine traffic stop that would not invite a lawful search. Odds are you will experience a) jail, b) an arrest record, and c) very expensive lawyers. Does not matter if you are innocent. NJ as a matter of public policy does not issue carry permits to the general public. Of course that is/will be litigated, but why be a test case?

I can carry openly or concealed only on my home property (not in my car off premises). I choose not to do so. I don't want to be a target for a cop who wants a high profile arrest in his portfolio. While I don't like any of the NJ gun laws, I obey them all, simply because too many otherwise law abiding citizens have been arrested.

open carry is too much for most people too accept. i'm not looking for attention and don't need to give someone a reason to fear or give me a problem. if you want to carry, it's best to keep it your little secret until you need it.

I'm gonna weigh in here and I haven't read all the comments so forgive me if this has been said already.

I live in a mid-atlantic coastal state that has MAY ISSUE CCW laws and prohibits open carry. First, and foremost, if you live in a state like mine, CCW is a felony with a hefty penalty whereas with open carry, the penalty is less. You can get 5 yrs for CCW whereas openly carrying a loaded legal 12 ga. shotgun is a misdemeanor. Go figure.

Second, whether its open carry or CCW, people from the mid-atlantic states upward are hysterical about guns period. They don't care about CCW or OC, they want guns gone.

Third, Dave, your post while containing some truth, smacks of fear of ant-gunners. For instance, "Many people, when they see a gun riding on the belt of someone who is not obviously a cop, are startled, shocked, or scared pissless, and when they learn that packing heat openly is legal, they may decide that it should not be legal, and will vote accordingly." If that's your stance, then why worry about it at all. The truth is, and a large motivator behind the OC movement, is the purpose of OC is to get people more accustomed to seeing firearms and removing the mystique so that they won't shite themselves the moment they see a gun on a non-uniformed hip thus lowering the effectiveness of anti-gunner fear-mongering tactics.

In short, it would be nice if one could CCW wherever, whenever; but the fact remains that in some states you get in more trouble for CCW then OC and CCW in many of these states is almost impossible to get. It must be nice for you guys and girls who live in states that liberally issue CCW permits or have SHALL ISSUE legislation but, then again, why should I need a permit to protect my life with adequate force anyway?

craigkindlesmith:

Craig, thanks for taking the time to list out the various states that recognize Oklahoma's permit. I know that there is reciprocity between some states, but therein lies the problem, not all states recognize all the other states. My state, WA, recognizes permits from 10 other states and my WA permit is recognized by 21 other states. I cannot travel to the state I grew up in, WV, and carry concealed; but I can cross the river from there and carry in Ohio. I can also fly to North Carolina and carry legally when I visit family there. I carry all the time in my present home state, but must unload and lock my firearm away when I cross the Columbia River into Oregon. (Yes friends, it is illegal for me to talk on my cell phone while driving, but I've got "unload and secure pistol" down pat when I cross the bridge!)

Can you imagine the challenges that there would be if we utilized this same system for driver's licenses?

Good night! I must be half asleep... Here's the link:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

david petzal-the way you put it, we cant carry open either way, because if we carry open then someone sees the gun and gets scared and votes against open carry laws.so even if we did have open carry laws then your saying it would still have to be concealed so someone doesnt see the gun and get scared and vote against open carry laws.

PAVEPUSHER, jim zumbo expressed an opinion to which he was entitled to and got crucified for it. that being said, you cannot argue with the fact that a lot of people where raised in a pampered environment and get scared pi**less at the site of a firearm in public. why advertise that you are carrying a firearm when it would be best to let that be a suprise to the bad guy who may want to do harm to someone? don't provoke contoversy when we have enough on our plate just fighting the antis for basic rights.

I carry concealed everyplace I go, even at work with the exception in Church. I find myself walking away from people at the slightest hint of an argument. All I need is someone to call the Cops even though no weapon was brandished, it could get very messy and false allegations of a weapon now could be made.

Get the big picture!

jamesti, yes Zumbo was entitled to an opinion. And, as explained, his "opinion" had no evidence to back it up. When called on it, Zumbo humbly ate his crow, learned a hard but valuble lesson, learned about another segment of his own past-time, and came away a better person for it.

If you find O.C. to be so dangerous,as you appear to imply, please take up my challenge, and support your assertion ("it would be best to let that be a suprise to the bad guy who may want to do harm to someone").

Open Carry IS the basic Right. You will note that in all but two States, CC must be done with government permission. Not a recognised Right at all, is it?

Commo Dog, that was excellent. Do you mind if I borrow parts of that, if I give proper attribution?

I don't have a problem with open carry, it's how the individual conducts themselves in public what I'm concerned about.

When not at work I normally carry my 45 openly with a light jacket over it and I don't walk around like some do, feel my gun to get my jollies!

I do it it a conservative and respectable way. Kinda like not carrying that big buck that just been shot bleeding all over the hood running down the highway on a Sunday Morning, just because I can!

Open carry?

If it's legal, I say go for it!
Just have a little respect for those around who never been raised with outdoor plumbing and behave in a respectable and professional manner!

One more thing!

About Jim Zumbo?

Until they bring him back, those who gave him the boot will not have there rag in my house or at work!

Everyone has an opinion and what he said got blown all out of proportion. I like Crossbows and think their great, I just don't have the hankerin for one!!

I am still waiting for a rebuttal that is meaningful, to my original post.

Simply clicking the "No" link to rate my comment negatively is not a meaningful response.

Clay,

You have backpedaled. You initially stated that carrying openly could create a scenario such as:

" All I need is someone to call the Cops even though no weapon was brandished, it could get very messy and false allegations of a weapon now could be made.

Get the big picture!"

Those of you who would hand over your liberty, or lend credence to the idea that a firearm merely being present on an individuals hip, is somehow a "really bad idea" because you assign it a negative social connotation, are free to give up rights that I deem likewise irrelevant or "offensive" to society.

The true meaning of equality is clearly not understood when one is warned of offending others.

Half of you, heck, far more than half of you, are shaking in your boots at what the antis may or may not go after because you're scared to offend their precious insecurities.

I could live my life til the day I die, never having to use my firearm to defend myself, letting it sit in its holster day in and day out, and still smile and be content in the fact that I ever needed it, it was less than a second away.

If you like to carry concealed, good for you. May your firearm not get hung up on the way out. The same bravery you assign to criminals who may go for a open carrier, would certainly take advantage of your flailing about while you reach to defend yourself.

Keep adding the negative ratings to my posts as well. It is deeply meaningful, and certainly lends significant substance matter to your opinions.

Have a great day!

I believe that Wisconsin and Illinois are the only two states that do not recognize the right to concealed carry at all, and have no provision for licensing private citizens. As I understand it, there is no law in Wisconsin against carrying openly, but the citizens who try this in public are subject having the police put them on the ground and disarm them until they determine that the citizen is within his rights.
I can understand Wisconsin Ben's bitterness with this arrangement, and wish him luck in fighting for his rights. I don't hold much hope for Illinois, but IMHO, Wisconsin should be one of the "shall issue" states.

Commodog, as an old Signal Corps type, (Started in Radio Relay and Carrier Opr, then Wireman, and switched to Combat Photgrapher in Viet Nam , just a little background to let you know why I agree with 99% of what you said, F&S has much to offer one of which is this blog, which allow ol' geezers like me to comment. I nullified the -1 because I feel it was unjustified. If you don't mind I will use some of your talking points in a class.

Conceal carry deters crime AFTER guns are drawn.

Open carry deters crime BEFORE guns are drawn.

Take your pick.

Clay Cooper,

At what point did I ever say I was a, "Tough guy" etc. ,so on and so forth?

What this all essentially comes down to is perpetuation of the idea that it is somehow "ok" to sacrifice essential liberty for a little bit of false security.

Frankly, if you are a law enforcement officer, and you have an issue with law abiding citizens carrying firearms, it typically boils down to losing a feeling of entitlement or power. For what other purpose could you reasonably equate, good, honest, law-abiding people carrying a firearm for their own personal protection, with the "looming possibility" of a criminal act?

Truth is, you can't.

I am happy that you have referred to me as a "cowboy". Name calling is a true sign of weak positioning, poor intellectuality, and the rapid fading of a sustainable argument. However, in this case, I am going to go with it. So I'm a "cowboy". The same kind of person that this country was fully built upon. The base of the working class that provided the foundation for this countries growth. So be it.

So, looking at your comment about this story you are providing me with as a shining example of why we should duck and hide, I feel compelled to ask:

Should you sacrifice all rights the moment somebody gets uncomfortable with them? Would you place a mask over your face so that people don't have to be threatened with the possibility that you are speaking?

Here are the massive, overwhelming, gargantuan problems with your argument:

You clearly do not know the first thing about human equality.

You would give up your freedoms in light of potentially offending someone else, or otherwise making them uncomfortable. With the mentality you present right here, women would not be voting, African-Americans would still be on cotton and tobacco fields only, chinese immigrants would still be building railways, and the automobile itself might have never come to fruition out of fear of all the irritated horse and buggy owners.

You claim to have been illegally arrested by officers, for an act you did not commit, then thoroughly cave to the act and try (and fail horribly I might add) to make a point out of it. "Hey guys these cops are corrupt! Lets not exercise our rights, and just do as they ask." - Right? Right. I am sure that's what you meant.

So, in light of this, I can accurately say that there are bigger people, with more intestinal fortitude, and sense of liberty than you have, who challenge these wrongs every day. You would have them stop, and submit as you have. You are weak.

Perhaps your safety bubble keeps you and all others safe from intruders. Death never happens, or is so rare that it is fully acceptable to lose an American life every now and then yes?

I am betting you would feel justified taking my firearm from me, then watching me die from an armed assault the next day, right? You would feel it acceptable that I couldn't draw my concealed firearm in time to defend myself from a brandishing attacker? The split seconds save lives. Anybody who has ever been in a conflict, foreign or domestic knows this for fact!

Furthermore, bad guys calling in bogus firearms claims? Tsk tsk, how little you think of society! So essentially if all of society understood their right to carry, you are going to sit here and say that that kind of bogus reporting will occur?

Please show me out of all the massive amounts of open carrying happening everywhere over the past few years where this has happened.

Provide factual evidence, and not hyperbolic hysteria please.

Thanks!

When it comes to the rights and liberties of an individual, I will stand up for their rights, for example. Phoenix Arizona during Mall Patrol, Phoenix Cops stopped a low rider what appeared to be an underage driver. What they found was it was a very short elderly Latino Man wearing his hat backwards because he was too short to see over the dashboard. They did a search of his vehicle and found a 9mm under the driver seat in a holster loaded. As they were in the process of arresting him, they asked me if I would do them a favor and run him down to Madison jail. What for I asked? Concealed weapons charge! That’s not a concealed weapon because it is contained I told them. I told the Phoenix Cop if he is arrested I would testify on his behalf. They let him go and for that, made a complaint to one of the Deputies I was under that night which he backed me up fully and a couple of Cops lost sleep over it.

Know your rights, but remember one thing,

SOME COPs ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND!

And as the Gentleman in the Head Office of the Department of Interior said, “DON’T ATTRACT UNWANTED ATTENTION TO YOURSELF!” He also said, there are some tracks of land that had been land locked and now, he has access to it across Park and Monument Land!

“Armed women equals polite men.”
-Charles Curley

“Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which... historically has proven to be always possible.”
-United States Senator Hubert Humphrey, 1960

“Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power.”
-Yoshimi Ishikawa, Japanese author, in the Los Angeles Times, 1992-Oct-15, commenting on the response of the Japanese public to government corruption

“If every person has the right to defend - even by force - his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly.”
-Frederic Bastiat, The Law, Paris, 1850

“When tyranny hits the fan and the 'Firearms Control Section Gestapo' stops by to confiscate your firearms, do the right thing...give'em the ammunition first.”
-the Tucson (Arizona) Rifle Club newsletter, 1999-Sep

“the people I put in jail have more honor than the top administration in this organization.”
-Bob Hoffman, ATF agent, to Mike Wallace, on 60 Minutes, 1993-Jan

“I took an oath. And the thing that I find totally abhorrent and disgusting is these higher-level people took that same oath and they violate the basic principles and tenets of the Constitution and the laws and simple ethics and morality.”
-Lou Tomasello, ATF agent, to Mike Wallace, on 60 Minutes, 1993-Jan

“a jack-booted group of fascists who are perhaps as large a danger to American society as I could pick today.”
-Rep. John Dingell (D-MI) in 1983, describing the ATF

Clay,

All of your commentary and posts have one thing in common bud.

You are stating that since there is corruption at the top, it is better to kneel at the bottom.

I can't abide by that!

I also have to point something out. You are sitting here claiming an elevated amount of "street smarts" over myself without knowing a single thing about me. It is best, especially in an argument, to defer to the facts.

Just because I speak as if I am well educated, and because the majority of my sentence structures are properly composed, does NOT mean I was raised in Beverly Hills! Just something to think about.

I am very happy to hear that you feel you would stand up for the rights of others. That is significant to me. With the examples you have given of police corruption, and false arrest however, I am curious what you would have the law abiding masses do?

Here's some facts to mull over:

Police spend significantly less time on the range, than the majority of hunters here. Absolutely guaranteed.

There have been an absolutely huge rush of police corruption reports, and videos (Just check youtube) since the advent of technology has allowed an era of accountability. I can't help but wonder what it was like before credit card sized pocket recorders, and pen cameras were available.

People are beginning to band together, and really think about their rights in this organization, Clay Cooper. This is why there has been so much focus on law, and firearms rights in this country (Heller vs. D.C., McDonald vs. Chicago etc.).

The very fact that there are people at the top, corrupt enough to violate, trample, or otherwise discard the rights or desires of their very own constituents, is evidence enough of the necessity of declaring our 2nd Amendment rights.

It is not the seeking of armed conflict, or segregation. It is simply letting the top know who, by order of the Constitution of these United States, holds all the political power in this country.

You. Me. Average Joe Citizen.

No absurd amount of clinging to what one would rationalize as "street smarts" can invalidate this statement. No clinging to this ideology can be used to validate police mistreatment or brutality, or murdering of my, or anybody else Constitutional rights!

Whats comical here, is your immediate assumption that I have sat and pondered the laws, or ideologies that I am discussing with you, when in fact it is simply the multitude of experiences I have had that led me down this road.

It would be an ignorant individual who believes that he is the only one who shed blood for, or gave a part of his soul for this country, or the people therein. It is an arrogant individual who believes his contributions are the sole, meaningful difference in this country.

Clay,

I have extensive time in desert ghettos under situations that would frankly make a lot of law enforcement officers pee their pants. This is like living in the L.A. Riots x10 for a year. If you don't think this requires "street smarts", you are outside of your head.

I once fought a First Sergeant on corruption charges, for being abusive to his soldiers (obviously including those in my squad). It took 4 months of extra-detail under duress (waking up @ 0330 buffing floors, going to sleep @ 2200. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.) from the same First Sergeant who was going to make an example out of me for dare questioning his authority. You have no idea what your liberty and freedom is until it is flat out gone.

Once IG got involved, he profusely apologized to me, and was fired from his 1st Sergeant role, and relegated back to battalion bitch.

These are just 2 of the many things I have encountered.

I have been there, and done that, under the worst possible conditions Clay Cooper. Many of my brothers and sisters have as well. Many of them still fight the same political fight. We realize that all the bended knee in the world will not fix our political problems.

Corruption will not fix itself. Those at the top will not recognize wherein the power lies, unless they are reminded time to time. You may want to study Thomas Jefferson on this issue in particular.

Your answer, in summarization is to:

--Hide the guns.

--Cater to certain government agencies you acknowledge as corrupt.

--Cater to politicians you acknowledge as corrupt.

--Cater to LEO's you acknowledge as being corrupt.

--Defer your rights, and cling to priviliges (i.e. "Don't open carry, go get your CCL")

While those in the Open Carry movement:

--Affirm their Constitutional rights.

--Confront corrupt government, in a respectful and polite, but assertive, and lawful manner. (I would be happy to provide all the footage, and documentation you need to this end by the way)

--Try to change the social perception that has been manufactured by the media and Hollywood around firearms ownership and carry, to a decidedly more positive one.

--Create positive impacts on their communities by organizing helpful events (Trash Pick-ups etc.)

The list goes on and on...

SO what say you Clay Cooper? Are you tired of biting your pillow, or is "Fighting for my rights simply aren't worth, because I am scared of our enormous government and its officials!" your final answer?

Open Carry is a right. Open Carry deters crime. Open Carry allows people to defend themselves MUCH more efficiently than concealed (Although, frankly, I think both should be completely and totally legal without registration!)

Concealed carry is not a right. You have to ask your local government in some states for permission to defend your own life. How pathetically sad.

I wonder. Was Rosa Parks being yelled at when she was sitting at the front of the bus, by the other black riders in the back? Did they tell her that at least they could ride in the back of the bus, and her actions would get them kicked off altogether? Yeah, probably.

I wonder who is espousing fear, and cowering in the same?

Have a great day!

And a +1 for'ya!

Clay,

Sounds good. My question is, why don't you join the rest of open carriers, even if only in groups, to make the statement that you will not stand for violations of your rights?

I have to admit that I do not agree with all open carriers on all fronts, but the basic premise is extremely sound.

"The normalization of openly carried firearms in American culture.".

I can side with that absolutely! It is a shame, but not surprising whatsoever that as our government grows, and special interest sets in across the board, that our rights would be full well under attack.

I love this country, and I believe in my countrymen.

To that end, I want none of our rights to ever be taken from us under the stealthy guise of "safety". I know whats best for my family. Not the government.

As you can attest by at least one example you gave, it is never convenient, nor easy to stand firm in integrity. This is the problem with American society today, in my humble opinion. People need to be held accountable for all their actions at the individual level.

Regarding LEO firearm incompetence. Not all of them are incompetent with their sidearms, but a recent FBI report on departmental policies as well as the average time for individual officers practicing with their sidearms is simply unacceptably low.

Moishe,

The Signal Corp is a wonderful branch to be in, but has its caveats. You get a mix of serious soldier, and, well..., not so "serious" soldier. If ya get my drift.

Warrants have an interesting position, stuck somewhere in the middle, but in a class all their own. Essentially heightened enlisted personnel charged with being absolute experts in their field. There is always White house Commo too, which I unfortunately never got to do.

Too much "coulda been" and after action review. :)

Auto spell was on,

I'm not a bit afraid of those bastards after what they did to my Uncle and especially to my Father!

ingebrigtsen little late in jumping n there dude! LOL!

Commo Dog and I are fixing to have a beer and a coke and you just started to join the party?

Your late ingebrigtsen!

CRACK ME UP!

Clay,

No beer. My liver will kill me. Too much partying in Germany. :)

I will take a Pepsi though. :D

CD

Welcome to the Club, although booze didn't do mine GI track the damage including hearing loss; it was what I was exposed to at an abounded Russian Air Field we set up a Bare Base at near Cairo Egypt. Come to find out after the fact, they used it for live chemical warfare exercises years before and they buried a bunch of stuff along what others covered up over the past.

dam lap top!

I hate this thing!

norwegian?

What's that!

Just kidding!!

WELCOME BROTHER B)!

A weapon and underwear share a few things in common. First, assume everyone has them. Second, don't show them off in public. Third, keep them in good repair. Finally, when they get dirty or smelly clean them.

u-insert where left out :D

Geez. Is it time for a soup sandwich yet?

Funny thing about Iraq is, there are so many experts who have never even been there. Kinda silly how that works.

ingebrigtsen,

Carrying both ways would be truly the optimal way to carry indeed. In fact, here's some random sillyness for you:

Law Enforcement draws their sidearm first if they are in danger, or need to force compliance.

Law Enforcement reaches for their BUG (Backup Gun) only when option #1 has been taken from them.

I wonder why they do things in that order. :)

ingebrigtsen

Why don't you unplug and zip it. Your brand of ignorance is particularly irritating. If that was your intent, troll, Well done.

I could care less what your foreign country does and really care even less about how many babies your aunt had by who knows how many men, black or otherwise. Is that some kind of badge of honor in your country? Sick.

Ingebrigtsen
Listen my friend; explain the mass graves, genocide and chemical attacks on the Kurdish people before we went in! So save me you’re liberal boo hoo! And one more thing, those numbers estimated 2 million Iraqi children (not iraki children) have died and been permanently crippled, was before we went in January of 1990!!! Those people have been fighting since Abraham and Isaac for thousands of years! I’ve been told while I was in the Middle East by many, if you done away with the United States and Israel and gave them absolute total piece, they would fight amongst themselves and start killing there brothers and neighbors! Did I say I was in the Middle East? WOW, Ingebrigtsen perhaps you need to make a trip there, perhaps you may learn something instead of just listening to your local Socialist Radio Network and regurgitating there New World Order Agenda!

Cops without guns?

Shows who is really running the Country!

Just like inmates running the prisons!

considering the way u yanks r behaving right now speaking german might be a better choice actually ;P
And who put saddam in power in the first place??
All im saying is that bin laden is still on CIA`s asset list :D
And ainth it wondefull how tightly knit u clay and u commo r right now that u have a common "enemy"? :P
What can i say, u probably get your news from FOX ;)

Speaking German may be a better choice eh? Yes, because my crimes against humanity are so atrocious. In fact, have you seen our Iraqi Death Camps? My MOS was changed to "Portable Iraqi Disposition Oven Specialist", in light of our travesties being so far above and beyond those committed in Nazi Germany, am I right?

Yup, we put Saddam in power. Then we removed him. It seems gassing his own people, mistreating his citizens, and threatening peaceful, neighboring countries wasn't something we could abide by in the long run. Funny how that works. Some might call it, "Responsibility".

Bin Laden on the CIA asset list eh? Yo Ho Ho gentlemen, and a bottle of rum! We have ourselves a conspiracy pirate.

I get my news, by having been IN Iraq. It's terribly sad to me though, how I can drive north through Safwan during the invasion, and watch the Iraqi people cheer for us, but certain news channels you obviously put way too much stock in, don't show this. That's crazy to me.

Oh well. Generate hyperbole based on imagination, or false news story generation by biased media types.

I am sure watching the news makes you an expert.

Have a great day troll!

America has the problems of a vast, multiethnic nation with a messianic view of itself and an often simplistic view of the rest of the world, stretched too thin beyond its borders and facing mounting challenges within them.
Besides, your bancrupt :P