Please Sign In

Please enter a valid username and password
  • Log in with Facebook
» Not a member? Take a moment to register
» Forgot Username or Password

Why Register?
Signing up could earn you gear (click here to learn how)! It also keeps offensive content off our site.

Petzal on Shooting Snakes, Bullet Packaging and NYC Police Shooting

Recent Comments

Categories

Recent Posts

Archives

Syndicate

Google Reader or Homepage
Add to My Yahoo!
Add to My AOL

The Gun Nuts
in your Inbox

Enter your email address to get our new post everyday.

September 20, 2011

Petzal on Shooting Snakes, Bullet Packaging and NYC Police Shooting

By David E. Petzal

- A while back, I advised that if one sees a venomous serpent crawling along, the proper response is to open fire. This was wrong. A crawling serpent presents hardly any target at all. If it’s a pit viper, such as a rattlesnake, the proper response is to fire a shot just ahead of its nose, which will cause it to coil. Then you have something to shoot at. Aim at the base of the reptile. I recommend high-velocity quick-expanding bullets. If the serpent is a cobra, a mamba, a krait, etc., which does not need to coil, drive to the nearest airport and leave.

- I figured out what happens to the people who flunk out of industrial design schools—the go on to profitable careers designing boxes for .22 ammo. A few weeks ago I got sick of boxes that crack, shatter, delaminate, rip, and otherwise implode and got three Rubbermaid food containers at a hardware store.
The bottoms are translucent plastic and the tops are a strange shade of maroon. Two are just big enough to hold 50 rounds, and the third will take 300 or so. They’re cheap, strong, waterproof, and don’t open accidentally.

- And finally, from the Oligarchy of Bloomberg comes a New York Times story  (Sept. 9th issue) of another NYPD fusillade. Eight of New York’s Finest were involved. They fired between 2 and 16 rounds each for a total of 73 shots. Total score: two hits resulting in two dead perps and, possibly, a third hit which may have killed an innocent bystander. Then came this paragraph:

“John Cerar, who was in charge of the department’s firearms and tactics training from 1985 to 1994 said the number of shots fired—73—and the number that missed their mark—all but 2—was not unusual.

“He said the fact that two police officers were shot made ‘for more frayed nerves’ which he said decreased accuracy.”

Anything I could add would be superfluous.

Comments (80)

Top Rated
All Comments
from Big Country wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

The NYPD Needs to invest in more range time. This is kinda like the LAPD incident were the officers involved fired something like 150 rounds and didn't even hit the suburban they were shooting at

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PbHead wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Snakes and Bloomberg in the same posting. I get it.

Good tip on the Rubbermaid containers. Lots of good shooting accessories and goodies can be found in our own kitchens.

You might want to check out a product from Plano. It is called the Field Box and looks like a mini GI ammo can. Made of plastic here in the USA with a reasonable price.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Oryx wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Two comments on the shooting incidents:
1. Do they need more practice? Yeah, probably. But getting shot is a pretty big deal, and it's hard to train for that. Until you've been in that situation(myself included) I would guess it's hard to predict performance. Training helps.

2. Most police officers, probably more so in LA, carry and (infrequently) use a gun because that is part of their job, not because they are gun enthusiasts. An amateur shoots and trains because they love it, not because they have to, and given normal baseline skill levels, will always shoot more and train more than a professional, which generally equates to a higher level of function. There are always those on the payroll that love to shoot and are police as well, but that's probably the exception.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from rock rat wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I think your photo is of Mr Ngoo Keeao, we call them grass snakes though they live in tree tops. When the wind blows hard and they fall to the ground breaking their backs they are very agressive and ready to bite anything. They can't run away and know they are food. Don't let one fall on you.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Harold wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Since our prarie rattlers are far from aggressive I won't shoot one unless it's near a place where people frequent.

It sounds like to me that the NYPD not only needs range time, but also some sort of shooting exercises that involve stress ("If you don't score well, no donuts for a week!") The discrepancy in stress between range time and real shootings is so great that it is very hard to transfer range skills to combat shooting. Have you seen some of those videos where crooks and store clerks are firing at each other at 2-3 yds. and aren't hitting? More range time: yes, but also more realistic trainging.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Douglas wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I am with you on the packaging thing. I am convinced there is a special place in hell for those in the packaging industry.
DEP, your prose is reminicient of Mark Twain. I truly believe there is a book in your future.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckhunter wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I guess the snakes are safe in New York.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from ishawooa wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

It took 4 attempts to log in on this blog, someone needs to fix this long standing problem. Anyway I think I have only let one rattler go which was a huge SOB in the snow 2 years ago. He coiled up under the sagebrush and I busted him with a big snowball before he slowly slid down a badger hole. I doubt I will ever go back into that canyon again as if re-encountered that rattler might not be as generous as me. I have a neat picture of him coiled in the snow that I need to submit. I store various .22 cartridges in Berger bullet hinged lid plastic boxes with a torn off piece of the original .22 carton taped on top. A piece of foam will keep them from rattling. The local police challenged the "cowboy shooters" (they put on a reasonably accurate free show for the tourists every night on 12th street by the Irma) to a shootoff with live ammo at the local handgun range. The cops had mostly Glocks with a sprinkling of 1911's. The cowboys had the usual array of frontier type revolvers SAAs, Schofields, etc. They shot for speed of draw, timed targets, accuracy, including both close and long range. The cowboys easily won every event. One of the cops told me that is why he packs a Mossberg pump in the squad car.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tony C. wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Shotguns do marvelous work on rattlesnakes, coiled or not. Maybe the NYPD should adopt them too. It wouldn't take as many shots to take down a perp and the "frayed nerves/decreased accuracy" problem wouldn't be near as much an issue. You still might get an innocent New Yorker with a stray OO pellet, but that's probably better than getting hit with a high velocity pistol round.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jeff Bowers wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Hmmm. I never saw a Rubbermaid container that small. That sounds good. I'll look for one.

I have heard a lot of stories about 'exchanges' like the NYPD story. And since some were from LEOs in my Reserve unit, I tend to believe them. You don't know how you react until someone is shooting at you.

I would just as soon not kill snakes, at least around here. The Black Snakes here hold down vermin so I leave them alone. But I like to carry my .38 CCI Shotshells in the woods just in case.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davycrockettfv wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

It's easy to pass judgement on the NYPD officers, but the article didn't mention distance to target, or whether the perps had taken cover. I can understand 2 out of 73 in lots of situations. That being said, it still doesn't inspire a lot of confidence... When you have only seconds, the police are just minutes away...

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

We tried to plan for those shooting situations and our officer were on the range for a full day every quarter plus days for qualifications. Out officers fired over 2500 rounds on the range every year. I put them under as much stress as I could dream up but I could never put them under the stress as they would encounter in a shooting situation. My officers that were involved in a shooting situation fared much better than NYPD. One officer fired 4 shots and all 4 shots were in the crooks chest. Another incident 6 shots were fired and 3 shots were in the crooks chest. The officers told me they were glad that I screamed and yelled and threw things at them while they were trying to shoot and fire the run and gun courses that we used to shoot. I only have one thing to say- don't pass judgement until you are in their shoes.

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from MReeder wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Having attempted to end an extreme-closeup encounter with the biggest rattler I've ever seen, using the scoped .270 at hand, I whole-heartedly endorse shotguns for snakes. I have also deployed an 8' graphite flyrod on a rattler, but it's not recommended if you intend to ever fish with it again.
Most poisonous snakes are usually content to go about their business, but I can tell you based on a couple of hairy experiences that is not always the case. I don't go out of my way looking for them, but unless I'm in a place that doesn't allow it I always kill them when I see them. I don't want to be the one responsible for a particular snake being around later to bite someone's child or bird dog.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

One of the most frightening sounds you can hear in the Florida woods while coon hunting at night is the loud buzzing of a big rattler you cannot see. When we found him all coiled and ready to strike my bro in law shot him with a 12 guage. The shot cut him in 3 places as well as taking off the head. That was over 40 years ago and still gives me chills.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

No wonder Bloomberg wants to take away handguns! Geez, Louise!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom-Tom wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Those Tupperware cups used to come in a set of three and have many uses. I kept fishing jigs in one along with about 20yds of line in my pack while elk hunting in the mountains.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I like the old winchester and CCI boxs, the plastic ones with a seperate hole for each round, I've saved everyone I ever bought and still use them. As for the NYPD, thats why on TV as a gunfight breaks they yell at everyone to "Get Down!" CCI shotshells for handguns have long been a favorite of mine for snake medicine!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from 99explorer wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

In the Diallo shooting in N.Y.C. in 1999, four officers fired 41 rounds, hitting the suspect with 19. But he was unarmed and not shooting back. It appears that incoming rounds do get your attention.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

If the snake is just crawling, it's not a threat. So why urge it into threat position?

Whether it's cops or snakes, fear will make you a lesser man.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Dave, for years I have used palm sized rubber maid containers for my .22 shells learning from my youth that pocket lint sticks like glue to the pre-lubed cartridges.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

P.S.,
A venemous snake around here such as a cotton mouth etc., is a dead snake. PETA people need not respond.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quiet Loner wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Several years ago a state Representative told me a serpent fearing citizen had gotten a bill into the Louisiana legislature to allow bowhunters to carry a .22 pistol & rat shot while bowhunting. I suggested he amend the bill by deleting ".22 pistol & rat shot" and insert "big long stick" in it's place. The newspapers being all in high dudgeon over frivolous legislation that session, he declined and the bill is now law.

I know a fish biologist who tried to kill a cottonmouth with a string trimmer. He said scales flew and the snake got mad as hell but escaped under a chain link fence.

Have a care for NYPD cops. I know an FBI firearms instructor who tried to help with their training. He said their issue holster was so awful instructors called a pistol bag. That is what happens when ignorant liberal political appointees who hate guns and probably dislike cops are in charge of purchasing.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quiet Loner wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

A note to fellow geezers lucky enough to be going on a hunt of some strenuosity. My orthopedist tells me one should obtain a prescription for cortizone type drugs; the type that comes in a blister pack with daily doses specified over a few days. My primary care doc concurs and said he and four MD buddies did that on a horse pack elk hunt. Cuts way down on the soreness. Only side effect for most is unusual wakefulness--not necessarily a bad thing during long days and short nights on a hunt.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I am appreciative of the role snakes play in keeping down harmful vermin. I only ask that they do it away from my yard. Grandkids.

That shootout shows why Wild Bill Hickock was the most feared man in the West in a day when everyone went armed. He could draw his gun, aim, and shoot straight when there were bullets coming back at him. Most cops are not Hickock; they are working stiffs who want to get their 25 in and buy a cottage by a lake. They got the bad guys and lived, having spent nothing but a few more bucks on ammo than we would like; it could have been worse.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

yes, those rubber(silicone rubber actually, which is pretty much neutral)-gasketed food containers, lunch boxes, etc. are waterproof - some even have a vapor loss rating - and won't pop open easily. If we only had them during the film camera days, we would not have lost a lot of pictures because our "exposed" film cartridges were dunked in water.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

One more thing that I love about Alaska; No Snakes of any kind!
I can handle the thought of not being at the top of the food chain, but wily venomous reptiles I do not have any love for or tolerance of.
AKX

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

rattlesnake = more efficient strike (stabbing action of the forward-pointing fangs), more efficient delivery of venom

cobra = more toxic venom, WAAY more quantity of venom, but must actually bite target (jaws closing in) to deliver venom

cobra = not really afraid of humans, the only snake that looks us in the eye

avoid both. pronto. unless your job requires you to be close to them (herpetologist, venom extractor, etc).

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

focusfront,
I tried to the best of my ability to be more than a working stiff and get my 25 in and buy a cottage by the lake. You make a very broad statement about law enforcement officers and in my 35+ years I have seen a few of those they are in a minority but most of my fellow officers truly cared and tried to be the best they could be to serve the public and be safe so they could return home to mom and the kids every night.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Rattlers or copperheads are best served with either a CCI shotshell from my Charter Arms .44 special or a load of 6's from a .410 Contender. Blacksnakes are caught if possible and deposited around the outbuildings for mousing duty, everything else is either caught and pitched out of the yard or otherwise shooed that same direction. Sarge, well put.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Sarge01: Your comment gave me a great start to the day. Good for you! I think the public is mostly pretty supportive of law enforcement. The very few idiots give the majority a black eye, but that happens in all professions. I tend to lose patience when the bad apples are protected by professional associations, such as with doctors and lawyers, which is scandalous. That really makes the public lose confidence in their integrity.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from white bison wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I have the dubious distinction of shooting a Black Mamba
on the ground...with my .358 Norma Mag. As you say..not a big target with it stretched out, even at 15 feet away.
However...what I found is the snakes are quite sensitive as their nerves are just on the skin...and even a spray of sand from a missed shot is enough to kill them as it hits the nerve areas. I don't know about other snakes, I'm only familiar with what is said about the Black Mamba.
It made the trackers very happy...as one less Mamba to happen onto.
BTW, its a tough one to figure where to aim on a rifle sighted in for 2" high with scope at 100 yds., and you have the Mamba at 15 feet away? Guesstimation, I guess.
Best Regards, Tom

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from damo450 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Check me if I am wrong Mr. Firearms and Tactical training, but, isn't learning to shoot with frayed nerves part of being a police officer? I have met very few law enforcement officers that I would be the least bit nervous to have fire off a few rounds at me. Unless it was 7 yards or less....

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

And that is why Front Sight advertises, "Training to levels that far exceed law enforcement and military standards, without any boot camp mentality or drill instructors attitudes."

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Don't be sissies. Black mambas and cobras are slow and you can see them coming for your stomach and chest. :-)

-3 Good Comment? | | Report
from IND_NRA wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

What do you expect from a city that has a man in charge that hates guns, and the American way of life.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from dasmith wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

As a Police Firearms Instructor I can tell you that its hard enough to get officers qualified on a target that is stationary. Now add the pressure of someone pointing a gun at you and some movement on the streets of NY City and its a whole new ball game. The end result was that the police won and lived and the bad guys didn't. As for snakes a .38 shotshell will take the head off a medium snake at 12 inches at longer distances it usually will take 2 shots.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Sarge01;

No offense. I didn't mean to imply laziness or laxness in enforcing the law; what I meant was that police work becomes a job after a while. Good cops want to enforce the law, but they also want to finish their shift in one piece. And as I said, they got the bad guys and got to go home afterwards. Some would say that this makes this a successful gunfight, never mind rounds expended. I am on your side.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from coachsjike wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

if you cant find rubbermaid, ziploc makes the disposable plastic containers with the same features. they come in lots of sizes and they are CHEAP!!! i have been using them for awhile until dave mentioned the rubbermaid containers.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Is that a photo of a green tree viper AKA bamboo viper? Looks like one of the 30-odd poisonous snakes found in that lovely SE Asian vacation spot.... Cobras, kraits, and the assorted pit vipers were certainly on my machete list.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from FLBobcat wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

More reason to hire returning veterans. They have been geting shot at on a daily bases. Make excellent law enforcement. Uncle Sam has already given them the OJT.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from campns wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

@ Dave, go to your local crate & barrel or Bed Bath and beyond. they have Snap lock containers that the lid actually snaps onto the body and they come in various sizes, have a silicone seal, and are extremely durable. I did use a sandwich container to keep my phone in while fishing and it kept it dry and floated whilst it fell into the drink. A guy in my office uses one to keep his spare powerbelts in while blackpower hunting as well.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Damo450,
I have a bit of friendly advice for you. Don't come to WV and do something to get into a shootout with the Natural Resource Police. We trained shooting .45's at 75 and 100 yards. If you haven't tried it you will be surprised what they will do if you train to do it. Other than that most officers in a pressure situation exit the vehicle with a M-16. I don't think that your 7 yard cushion will serve you well. Our officers are trained with unbelievable pressures put on them from noise to objects flying around and hitting them and people screaming in their ears. I would guess that NYCPD does not do a whole lot of pressure training. When budgets get tight training is the first thing to get cut, I was glad that my Dept. didn't operate that way.
On the issue of snakes my new Judge with #4 shot shells is devastating at 15 feet. A snake dosen't stand a chance.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

sarge01

I would have liked a "silenced" Judge .410 about 40 years ago!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Mark-1,

Hope you were joking about mambas being slow. During the blink of an eye they can cover 20 feet. I have never had time to shoot at any one of the many I have seen over the years. By the way I did not give you the minus one.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Myles,

Yeah, I was being a smart a*s. :-)

What I was told is a black mamba is a black cobra. Them and regular cobras, like to hide out in thickets. Damn things raise themselves 3' to 4' off the ground w/bad attitudes when irked.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from white bison wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

A Black Mamba is not a Cobra...but a Black Mamba. Bad neurotoxin. If they want to strike...because of a 10 foot
length, they can raise up 4 feet high...thus the strike is in the most vital area of a human. I don't know about the strike speed...but has to be very fast. Over the ground they can go 14 mph...I think the fastest of any snake. The are called 'Black' Mamba, because when they open their mount...its jet black, The skin is not black.
If you saw one with the jet black mouth open..say a silent prayer..odds are you won't make it.
An African PH was struck by a black mamba...and he knew exactly what to do & raced to the hospital. He got the anti-venom, and one of few to survive a mamba strike...but he was in excruciating pain for a year. He recovered fully...
Best regards,
Tom

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

To WA Mthunter: The photo is a Green Mamba. They are tree dwelling snakes. Very fast and very toxic. Black Mambas I believe are mostly ground dwelling. How dangerous? They are highly defensive and not to be screwed around with, but most of what you hear and read about snakes is total BS. Much of the stuff I hear regarding snakes makes me want to tear my remaining hair out!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from BuckAndBass wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

@ Jim in Mo
I am PETA, and I can respond to your comment if I want to. (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Thumbs up!!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from RangerDansDrink... wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

copperheads and Timber Rattlesnakes (not to be confused with the eastern diamond back which I hear is particularly nasty) in my state (Pennsylvania) are protected and hunted (with a permit) like any over game. One per permit per year. Eastern Massasauga (the pigmy rattler) are endangered and will get a real stiff fine if you kill one. I am not a PETA person and If it came down to a snake or me, I choose me. But on the other hand, most poisonous snakes are night hunters and easily avoided with a big stick and a little care.

Sorry Mr. Petzal; the random killing of rattlers/copperhead that are not in a position to do you harm is just plain wrong. When I took my nephews camping in the backwoods that was deep snake country, I taught them, we are in the snakes world and they not in ours.

The most dangerous (per venom delivered) snake in North America: Eastern Diamondback. Most rattlesnakes do not deliver a full load of venom when striking (it is too precious a commodity when you have to kill your prey with it, and too hard to replace.
The US ARMY survival manual swear there are no poisonous snakes North of North carlolina. That is pure crap. I have seen timber rattlers in the 5 foot range in The Pa mountains. And yes I had a friend who was nailed by a rattler at night and he lived to tell the tale.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

In the SE Asia paradise many of us "enjoyed" the GI's called that the two stepper, it ibite you take two steps and your dead I truthfully never saw one, but one of my friend's was killed by one.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from James Bishop wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

When I was on a police force we trained with a wheel gun so we would have had to make every shot count,I was fortunate , although I have had to hold perps at gun point,I have not had to fire. Also fast draw is good stress training even though you are not being shot at. When possibly thousands of dollars are riding on as small a margin as 1/1000 of a second it is very stressful jhb

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

to be fair, the NYPD have to deal with way more people than most. multi-cultural too.

as for snakes, like I wrote before, you have to at least respect an animal that can crawl, climb, swim, even fly (there's a flying - actually gliding - snake in Malaysia), travel well over all sorts of terrain short of greased glass panels, all without the aid of feet and hands.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

John Cerar,
Of course we understand.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

White Bison, Fastest snake I observed was a 15'...maybe, but it was LONG...Python. That snake was faster than a scared rabbit!!! It scooted down a bank and into a hole in a flash. Incredible for an animal that size.

Other: Locals didn't like a small green snake that was as big around as a #2 pencil.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

From researching some of the posts regarding snakes, i have com to the conclusion that there is more fiction than facts surrounding our shoulderless friends.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Moishe,
I was fortunate to never run into a "two stepper" either. I heard we lost several GI's over the years to this snake. I don't know if that was fact or just scare tactics.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Must agree with WA's comment on snakes. My experience is most poison snakes are shy and would rather take flight than bite, even the black mambas and cobras.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

RangerDansDrink is absolutely correct. Timber Rattlers range all the way up to northern New York State and there are a few dens left in Vermont and New Hampshire. Copperheads are found up into southern New York. The US Army manual claim is bunk. If you kill a Timber Rattler in New York there is a hefty fine involved. If you don't bother them they won't bother you.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Sarge, is it illegal to kill a timber rattler in our area? I know they're protected in the parks, of course, but what about in the back 40? I killed one in Va. one night and some hippie stopped and bawled me out for "killing an endangered species". Moron................

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

If I know a snake is not harmfl I wille walk around it, it its is on that can kill kids,,adults and pets and it's on my property.... it dies.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

harmful* sorry.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from smartz wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

where i live, the only venomous snakes are copperheads; and for copperheads 'venomous' is a technicality, for if you are bitten, and it's not a dry bite, only children are in mortal danger and that's without timely treatment. Add to that the fact they only strike when stepped on, AND they're invisible among leaves, actively trying to kill them is just plain pointless.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

007,
It is NOT illegal to kill a rattler in our area not even in the parks as far as I know of.

The biologist that had the office next to mine reached down next to the steps to his out building and a copperhead nailed him. Smartz they do have a healthy dose of poison. The biologist was at the hospital in 15 minutes and for about 2 months it looked like he was going to lose his arm. It swelled up about 3 times normal size and broke open the skin, turned purple, green , red and every other color you can think of. He was really sick for about 3 weeks. Copperheads can give you a very healthy dose, don't fool with them. If rattlesnakes and copperheads are around my house where the grandkids are the snake loses.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from BobGWI wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Hey Rock Rat, how do them grass snakes taste? Or are they not worth eating?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Although Copperhead bites are almost never life threatening, I have been bitten and it's no fun at all. Very painful. It was entirely my fault that I got bitten. I sustained some tissue damage on my thumb from the treatment at the hospital emergency room by people who did not know what they were doing. They deeply incised the bite, and this is no longer considered to be necessary or desirable at all. Antivenin shots are all that is needed. Anyway, DON'T get bitten by a Copperhead. You will not enjoy it.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from chaslee wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

draw fast aim slow. Keep both eyes open. Some snakes got legs some don't. I like a small zipper change purse for 22's or 17's.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Sarge, my snake chaps are laid out for next week.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from willisriverbuck wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Put a dog's shock collar on the cop's leg. Then shock him as he shoots. That is pretty realistic training.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Nyflyangler wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

The NYPD doesn't need more training. They need their guns taken away and replaced with pointy sticks.

Just about anyone who lives here suspects the only reason one becomes a NYPD officer is because you can no longer join a Schutzstaffel Einsatzgruppen unit. New Yorkers know that the NYPD can shoot someone tied to a chair and the chief and brass will find a way to declare it a justifiable shooting.

The NYPD uses hollow point bullets. Bullets which under the Hague Convention of 1899, declaration III, are considered illegal and would get tied to a post and shot if you were caught with them on the battlefield. The NYPD uses these bullets against US citizens.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Almost every law enforcement agency, including my former agency , uses hollow point bullets. Without them you get little round holes that do no good like the FBI shootout where there were over 100 shots fired and over 50 hit the crooks and they kept on coming. That was with a 9MM with solid bullets. After that the FBI and most other agencies went to hollow point bullets. You shoot someone for one reason, stop him or her from hurting you or someone else and the quicker the better.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

It is obvious that Nyflydangler knows Jack Schitt. Or is just trying to stir the pile.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from micko77 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Having been fortunate in regards to snakes with no legs, I have only laid waste to one that was intent on following me--my usual choice is to go the other way. Here in western IL there are very few copperheads, and the occasional rattler-- that's what got a couple of .38's. In my experience, most police officers are quite good at writing up reports and tickets, intervening in domestic disputes, making their presence known to quell that itch in drunks, and taking down those whose itch isn't quelled by force of numbers or less-lethal means. I did have a conversation with a badge-wearer who openly admitted to prefer waiting for the gunfire to stop, then go in; much less risky. I don't count him among my friends. In the revolver days of PPC I wanted to develop my own skills, and the IL Police Assn. had an Associate's membership that gave me entry into ranges across the state. There were a number of officers in uniform who shot quite well, in the 440+ scores of 480 possible, some much better. Sadly there were far too many who couldn't keep 6 on a man-sized target at 7 yards. I suspect they pushed pencils well.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from hutter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I assuming that Mr. Petzal means .22 cartridges or sometimes called shells and not "bullets" as those already come in great little packages.It irks me to no ends when an "expert" uses the wrong nomenclenture to describe something. Such as when Dave talks about scope rings,but calls them mounts. There are ring mounts of course but they are intregal and not two separate pieces.Come on Dave don't show us your ass. You ARE the "expert".

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from vasportsman wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Lesson for those who try to kill venomous snakes on sight--My brother and I were hiking on the AT and had taken a break at a big rock fall. My brother and I decided to climb over a few bolders to get a better view of the valley below, and I literally caught my brother as he was stepping onto a boulder with a timber rattler basking. The snake was coiled and ready to strike, but was making no noise. As he slithered away I could see a wound on its back and his tail was obviously broken by someone trying to kill it by hurling rocks at it, hence no rattle. Close call, and as a result I do not needlessly attack snakes that are not a threat to me or my family.

Lesson learned.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from vasportsman wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

As for ammo boxes I use an orange plastic tire chain container, works great and has a handle to carry it with one hand.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Nyflyangler wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Oh gee an opinion from Lil' Abner from Dogpatch about something he no experience with. Who would have thought...

FYI. Anyone who actually lives here, ie, someone who actually has the information to form a informed opinion knows that in the city, the cops are basically just another street gang. Not much different from the Crips or the Bloods.

WA Mtnhunter wrote:

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Infidel wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

Back when I use to chew I'd keep the empty plastic container and fill them up with 22 shells. They fit perfect in your pocket and will not open by accident. As for the New York police shootout, at least they got the guys. I heard a story of two FBI Agents who got into a shootout with two bank robbers, after both sides ran out of ammo, the robbers got back into their SUV and drove away!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

Nyflyangler, don't sell that Appalachian wisdom short, you could likely learn a little something from Sarge and his kind. The Good Lord gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason, listen more, talk less.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from deerhunterrick wrote 2 years 24 weeks ago

I certainly hope no bad guys get the idea of dressing up like a snake and rob someplace in NY now.But from the sounds of things it would be a safer bet then looking like Lady Gaga on the street

0 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment

from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

We tried to plan for those shooting situations and our officer were on the range for a full day every quarter plus days for qualifications. Out officers fired over 2500 rounds on the range every year. I put them under as much stress as I could dream up but I could never put them under the stress as they would encounter in a shooting situation. My officers that were involved in a shooting situation fared much better than NYPD. One officer fired 4 shots and all 4 shots were in the crooks chest. Another incident 6 shots were fired and 3 shots were in the crooks chest. The officers told me they were glad that I screamed and yelled and threw things at them while they were trying to shoot and fire the run and gun courses that we used to shoot. I only have one thing to say- don't pass judgement until you are in their shoes.

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Mark-1,

Hope you were joking about mambas being slow. During the blink of an eye they can cover 20 feet. I have never had time to shoot at any one of the many I have seen over the years. By the way I did not give you the minus one.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckhunter wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I guess the snakes are safe in New York.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

And that is why Front Sight advertises, "Training to levels that far exceed law enforcement and military standards, without any boot camp mentality or drill instructors attitudes."

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Harold wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Since our prarie rattlers are far from aggressive I won't shoot one unless it's near a place where people frequent.

It sounds like to me that the NYPD not only needs range time, but also some sort of shooting exercises that involve stress ("If you don't score well, no donuts for a week!") The discrepancy in stress between range time and real shootings is so great that it is very hard to transfer range skills to combat shooting. Have you seen some of those videos where crooks and store clerks are firing at each other at 2-3 yds. and aren't hitting? More range time: yes, but also more realistic trainging.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

To WA Mthunter: The photo is a Green Mamba. They are tree dwelling snakes. Very fast and very toxic. Black Mambas I believe are mostly ground dwelling. How dangerous? They are highly defensive and not to be screwed around with, but most of what you hear and read about snakes is total BS. Much of the stuff I hear regarding snakes makes me want to tear my remaining hair out!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Rattlers or copperheads are best served with either a CCI shotshell from my Charter Arms .44 special or a load of 6's from a .410 Contender. Blacksnakes are caught if possible and deposited around the outbuildings for mousing duty, everything else is either caught and pitched out of the yard or otherwise shooed that same direction. Sarge, well put.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from RangerDansDrink... wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

copperheads and Timber Rattlesnakes (not to be confused with the eastern diamond back which I hear is particularly nasty) in my state (Pennsylvania) are protected and hunted (with a permit) like any over game. One per permit per year. Eastern Massasauga (the pigmy rattler) are endangered and will get a real stiff fine if you kill one. I am not a PETA person and If it came down to a snake or me, I choose me. But on the other hand, most poisonous snakes are night hunters and easily avoided with a big stick and a little care.

Sorry Mr. Petzal; the random killing of rattlers/copperhead that are not in a position to do you harm is just plain wrong. When I took my nephews camping in the backwoods that was deep snake country, I taught them, we are in the snakes world and they not in ours.

The most dangerous (per venom delivered) snake in North America: Eastern Diamondback. Most rattlesnakes do not deliver a full load of venom when striking (it is too precious a commodity when you have to kill your prey with it, and too hard to replace.
The US ARMY survival manual swear there are no poisonous snakes North of North carlolina. That is pure crap. I have seen timber rattlers in the 5 foot range in The Pa mountains. And yes I had a friend who was nailed by a rattler at night and he lived to tell the tale.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

focusfront,
I tried to the best of my ability to be more than a working stiff and get my 25 in and buy a cottage by the lake. You make a very broad statement about law enforcement officers and in my 35+ years I have seen a few of those they are in a minority but most of my fellow officers truly cared and tried to be the best they could be to serve the public and be safe so they could return home to mom and the kids every night.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Damo450,
I have a bit of friendly advice for you. Don't come to WV and do something to get into a shootout with the Natural Resource Police. We trained shooting .45's at 75 and 100 yards. If you haven't tried it you will be surprised what they will do if you train to do it. Other than that most officers in a pressure situation exit the vehicle with a M-16. I don't think that your 7 yard cushion will serve you well. Our officers are trained with unbelievable pressures put on them from noise to objects flying around and hitting them and people screaming in their ears. I would guess that NYCPD does not do a whole lot of pressure training. When budgets get tight training is the first thing to get cut, I was glad that my Dept. didn't operate that way.
On the issue of snakes my new Judge with #4 shot shells is devastating at 15 feet. A snake dosen't stand a chance.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from davycrockettfv wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

It's easy to pass judgement on the NYPD officers, but the article didn't mention distance to target, or whether the perps had taken cover. I can understand 2 out of 73 in lots of situations. That being said, it still doesn't inspire a lot of confidence... When you have only seconds, the police are just minutes away...

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Douglas wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I am with you on the packaging thing. I am convinced there is a special place in hell for those in the packaging industry.
DEP, your prose is reminicient of Mark Twain. I truly believe there is a book in your future.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

No wonder Bloomberg wants to take away handguns! Geez, Louise!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Is that a photo of a green tree viper AKA bamboo viper? Looks like one of the 30-odd poisonous snakes found in that lovely SE Asian vacation spot.... Cobras, kraits, and the assorted pit vipers were certainly on my machete list.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from ishawooa wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

It took 4 attempts to log in on this blog, someone needs to fix this long standing problem. Anyway I think I have only let one rattler go which was a huge SOB in the snow 2 years ago. He coiled up under the sagebrush and I busted him with a big snowball before he slowly slid down a badger hole. I doubt I will ever go back into that canyon again as if re-encountered that rattler might not be as generous as me. I have a neat picture of him coiled in the snow that I need to submit. I store various .22 cartridges in Berger bullet hinged lid plastic boxes with a torn off piece of the original .22 carton taped on top. A piece of foam will keep them from rattling. The local police challenged the "cowboy shooters" (they put on a reasonably accurate free show for the tourists every night on 12th street by the Irma) to a shootoff with live ammo at the local handgun range. The cops had mostly Glocks with a sprinkling of 1911's. The cowboys had the usual array of frontier type revolvers SAAs, Schofields, etc. They shot for speed of draw, timed targets, accuracy, including both close and long range. The cowboys easily won every event. One of the cops told me that is why he packs a Mossberg pump in the squad car.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from BuckAndBass wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

@ Jim in Mo
I am PETA, and I can respond to your comment if I want to. (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Thumbs up!!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quiet Loner wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Several years ago a state Representative told me a serpent fearing citizen had gotten a bill into the Louisiana legislature to allow bowhunters to carry a .22 pistol & rat shot while bowhunting. I suggested he amend the bill by deleting ".22 pistol & rat shot" and insert "big long stick" in it's place. The newspapers being all in high dudgeon over frivolous legislation that session, he declined and the bill is now law.

I know a fish biologist who tried to kill a cottonmouth with a string trimmer. He said scales flew and the snake got mad as hell but escaped under a chain link fence.

Have a care for NYPD cops. I know an FBI firearms instructor who tried to help with their training. He said their issue holster was so awful instructors called a pistol bag. That is what happens when ignorant liberal political appointees who hate guns and probably dislike cops are in charge of purchasing.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Sarge01: Your comment gave me a great start to the day. Good for you! I think the public is mostly pretty supportive of law enforcement. The very few idiots give the majority a black eye, but that happens in all professions. I tend to lose patience when the bad apples are protected by professional associations, such as with doctors and lawyers, which is scandalous. That really makes the public lose confidence in their integrity.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

RangerDansDrink is absolutely correct. Timber Rattlers range all the way up to northern New York State and there are a few dens left in Vermont and New Hampshire. Copperheads are found up into southern New York. The US Army manual claim is bunk. If you kill a Timber Rattler in New York there is a hefty fine involved. If you don't bother them they won't bother you.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from white bison wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I have the dubious distinction of shooting a Black Mamba
on the ground...with my .358 Norma Mag. As you say..not a big target with it stretched out, even at 15 feet away.
However...what I found is the snakes are quite sensitive as their nerves are just on the skin...and even a spray of sand from a missed shot is enough to kill them as it hits the nerve areas. I don't know about other snakes, I'm only familiar with what is said about the Black Mamba.
It made the trackers very happy...as one less Mamba to happen onto.
BTW, its a tough one to figure where to aim on a rifle sighted in for 2" high with scope at 100 yds., and you have the Mamba at 15 feet away? Guesstimation, I guess.
Best Regards, Tom

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from white bison wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

A Black Mamba is not a Cobra...but a Black Mamba. Bad neurotoxin. If they want to strike...because of a 10 foot
length, they can raise up 4 feet high...thus the strike is in the most vital area of a human. I don't know about the strike speed...but has to be very fast. Over the ground they can go 14 mph...I think the fastest of any snake. The are called 'Black' Mamba, because when they open their mount...its jet black, The skin is not black.
If you saw one with the jet black mouth open..say a silent prayer..odds are you won't make it.
An African PH was struck by a black mamba...and he knew exactly what to do & raced to the hospital. He got the anti-venom, and one of few to survive a mamba strike...but he was in excruciating pain for a year. He recovered fully...
Best regards,
Tom

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from dasmith wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

As a Police Firearms Instructor I can tell you that its hard enough to get officers qualified on a target that is stationary. Now add the pressure of someone pointing a gun at you and some movement on the streets of NY City and its a whole new ball game. The end result was that the police won and lived and the bad guys didn't. As for snakes a .38 shotshell will take the head off a medium snake at 12 inches at longer distances it usually will take 2 shots.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Walt Smith wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I like the old winchester and CCI boxs, the plastic ones with a seperate hole for each round, I've saved everyone I ever bought and still use them. As for the NYPD, thats why on TV as a gunfight breaks they yell at everyone to "Get Down!" CCI shotshells for handguns have long been a favorite of mine for snake medicine!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

sarge01

I would have liked a "silenced" Judge .410 about 40 years ago!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

From researching some of the posts regarding snakes, i have com to the conclusion that there is more fiction than facts surrounding our shoulderless friends.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Dave, for years I have used palm sized rubber maid containers for my .22 shells learning from my youth that pocket lint sticks like glue to the pre-lubed cartridges.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

P.S.,
A venemous snake around here such as a cotton mouth etc., is a dead snake. PETA people need not respond.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Del in KS wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

One of the most frightening sounds you can hear in the Florida woods while coon hunting at night is the loud buzzing of a big rattler you cannot see. When we found him all coiled and ready to strike my bro in law shot him with a 12 guage. The shot cut him in 3 places as well as taking off the head. That was over 40 years ago and still gives me chills.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from PbHead wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Snakes and Bloomberg in the same posting. I get it.

Good tip on the Rubbermaid containers. Lots of good shooting accessories and goodies can be found in our own kitchens.

You might want to check out a product from Plano. It is called the Field Box and looks like a mini GI ammo can. Made of plastic here in the USA with a reasonable price.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Myles,

Yeah, I was being a smart a*s. :-)

What I was told is a black mamba is a black cobra. Them and regular cobras, like to hide out in thickets. Damn things raise themselves 3' to 4' off the ground w/bad attitudes when irked.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

White Bison, Fastest snake I observed was a 15'...maybe, but it was LONG...Python. That snake was faster than a scared rabbit!!! It scooted down a bank and into a hole in a flash. Incredible for an animal that size.

Other: Locals didn't like a small green snake that was as big around as a #2 pencil.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Must agree with WA's comment on snakes. My experience is most poison snakes are shy and would rather take flight than bite, even the black mambas and cobras.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I am appreciative of the role snakes play in keeping down harmful vermin. I only ask that they do it away from my yard. Grandkids.

That shootout shows why Wild Bill Hickock was the most feared man in the West in a day when everyone went armed. He could draw his gun, aim, and shoot straight when there were bullets coming back at him. Most cops are not Hickock; they are working stiffs who want to get their 25 in and buy a cottage by a lake. They got the bad guys and lived, having spent nothing but a few more bucks on ammo than we would like; it could have been worse.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Sarge01;

No offense. I didn't mean to imply laziness or laxness in enforcing the law; what I meant was that police work becomes a job after a while. Good cops want to enforce the law, but they also want to finish their shift in one piece. And as I said, they got the bad guys and got to go home afterwards. Some would say that this makes this a successful gunfight, never mind rounds expended. I am on your side.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quiet Loner wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

A note to fellow geezers lucky enough to be going on a hunt of some strenuosity. My orthopedist tells me one should obtain a prescription for cortizone type drugs; the type that comes in a blister pack with daily doses specified over a few days. My primary care doc concurs and said he and four MD buddies did that on a horse pack elk hunt. Cuts way down on the soreness. Only side effect for most is unusual wakefulness--not necessarily a bad thing during long days and short nights on a hunt.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

One more thing that I love about Alaska; No Snakes of any kind!
I can handle the thought of not being at the top of the food chain, but wily venomous reptiles I do not have any love for or tolerance of.
AKX

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

If the snake is just crawling, it's not a threat. So why urge it into threat position?

Whether it's cops or snakes, fear will make you a lesser man.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jeff Bowers wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Hmmm. I never saw a Rubbermaid container that small. That sounds good. I'll look for one.

I have heard a lot of stories about 'exchanges' like the NYPD story. And since some were from LEOs in my Reserve unit, I tend to believe them. You don't know how you react until someone is shooting at you.

I would just as soon not kill snakes, at least around here. The Black Snakes here hold down vermin so I leave them alone. But I like to carry my .38 CCI Shotshells in the woods just in case.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Sarge, is it illegal to kill a timber rattler in our area? I know they're protected in the parks, of course, but what about in the back 40? I killed one in Va. one night and some hippie stopped and bawled me out for "killing an endangered species". Moron................

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from FLBobcat wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

More reason to hire returning veterans. They have been geting shot at on a daily bases. Make excellent law enforcement. Uncle Sam has already given them the OJT.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tony C. wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Shotguns do marvelous work on rattlesnakes, coiled or not. Maybe the NYPD should adopt them too. It wouldn't take as many shots to take down a perp and the "frayed nerves/decreased accuracy" problem wouldn't be near as much an issue. You still might get an innocent New Yorker with a stray OO pellet, but that's probably better than getting hit with a high velocity pistol round.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

yes, those rubber(silicone rubber actually, which is pretty much neutral)-gasketed food containers, lunch boxes, etc. are waterproof - some even have a vapor loss rating - and won't pop open easily. If we only had them during the film camera days, we would not have lost a lot of pictures because our "exposed" film cartridges were dunked in water.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

rattlesnake = more efficient strike (stabbing action of the forward-pointing fangs), more efficient delivery of venom

cobra = more toxic venom, WAAY more quantity of venom, but must actually bite target (jaws closing in) to deliver venom

cobra = not really afraid of humans, the only snake that looks us in the eye

avoid both. pronto. unless your job requires you to be close to them (herpetologist, venom extractor, etc).

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

to be fair, the NYPD have to deal with way more people than most. multi-cultural too.

as for snakes, like I wrote before, you have to at least respect an animal that can crawl, climb, swim, even fly (there's a flying - actually gliding - snake in Malaysia), travel well over all sorts of terrain short of greased glass panels, all without the aid of feet and hands.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from 99explorer wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

In the Diallo shooting in N.Y.C. in 1999, four officers fired 41 rounds, hitting the suspect with 19. But he was unarmed and not shooting back. It appears that incoming rounds do get your attention.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom-Tom wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Those Tupperware cups used to come in a set of three and have many uses. I kept fishing jigs in one along with about 20yds of line in my pack while elk hunting in the mountains.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from James Bishop wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

When I was on a police force we trained with a wheel gun so we would have had to make every shot count,I was fortunate , although I have had to hold perps at gun point,I have not had to fire. Also fast draw is good stress training even though you are not being shot at. When possibly thousands of dollars are riding on as small a margin as 1/1000 of a second it is very stressful jhb

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Moishe,
I was fortunate to never run into a "two stepper" either. I heard we lost several GI's over the years to this snake. I don't know if that was fact or just scare tactics.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

007,
It is NOT illegal to kill a rattler in our area not even in the parks as far as I know of.

The biologist that had the office next to mine reached down next to the steps to his out building and a copperhead nailed him. Smartz they do have a healthy dose of poison. The biologist was at the hospital in 15 minutes and for about 2 months it looked like he was going to lose his arm. It swelled up about 3 times normal size and broke open the skin, turned purple, green , red and every other color you can think of. He was really sick for about 3 weeks. Copperheads can give you a very healthy dose, don't fool with them. If rattlesnakes and copperheads are around my house where the grandkids are the snake loses.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Almost every law enforcement agency, including my former agency , uses hollow point bullets. Without them you get little round holes that do no good like the FBI shootout where there were over 100 shots fired and over 50 hit the crooks and they kept on coming. That was with a 9MM with solid bullets. After that the FBI and most other agencies went to hollow point bullets. You shoot someone for one reason, stop him or her from hurting you or someone else and the quicker the better.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from campns wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

@ Dave, go to your local crate & barrel or Bed Bath and beyond. they have Snap lock containers that the lid actually snaps onto the body and they come in various sizes, have a silicone seal, and are extremely durable. I did use a sandwich container to keep my phone in while fishing and it kept it dry and floated whilst it fell into the drink. A guy in my office uses one to keep his spare powerbelts in while blackpower hunting as well.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from rock rat wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

I think your photo is of Mr Ngoo Keeao, we call them grass snakes though they live in tree tops. When the wind blows hard and they fall to the ground breaking their backs they are very agressive and ready to bite anything. They can't run away and know they are food. Don't let one fall on you.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from MReeder wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Having attempted to end an extreme-closeup encounter with the biggest rattler I've ever seen, using the scoped .270 at hand, I whole-heartedly endorse shotguns for snakes. I have also deployed an 8' graphite flyrod on a rattler, but it's not recommended if you intend to ever fish with it again.
Most poisonous snakes are usually content to go about their business, but I can tell you based on a couple of hairy experiences that is not always the case. I don't go out of my way looking for them, but unless I'm in a place that doesn't allow it I always kill them when I see them. I don't want to be the one responsible for a particular snake being around later to bite someone's child or bird dog.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from vasportsman wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Lesson for those who try to kill venomous snakes on sight--My brother and I were hiking on the AT and had taken a break at a big rock fall. My brother and I decided to climb over a few bolders to get a better view of the valley below, and I literally caught my brother as he was stepping onto a boulder with a timber rattler basking. The snake was coiled and ready to strike, but was making no noise. As he slithered away I could see a wound on its back and his tail was obviously broken by someone trying to kill it by hurling rocks at it, hence no rattle. Close call, and as a result I do not needlessly attack snakes that are not a threat to me or my family.

Lesson learned.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from BobGWI wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Hey Rock Rat, how do them grass snakes taste? Or are they not worth eating?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from IND_NRA wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

What do you expect from a city that has a man in charge that hates guns, and the American way of life.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from coachsjike wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

if you cant find rubbermaid, ziploc makes the disposable plastic containers with the same features. they come in lots of sizes and they are CHEAP!!! i have been using them for awhile until dave mentioned the rubbermaid containers.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Oryx wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

Two comments on the shooting incidents:
1. Do they need more practice? Yeah, probably. But getting shot is a pretty big deal, and it's hard to train for that. Until you've been in that situation(myself included) I would guess it's hard to predict performance. Training helps.

2. Most police officers, probably more so in LA, carry and (infrequently) use a gun because that is part of their job, not because they are gun enthusiasts. An amateur shoots and trains because they love it, not because they have to, and given normal baseline skill levels, will always shoot more and train more than a professional, which generally equates to a higher level of function. There are always those on the payroll that love to shoot and are police as well, but that's probably the exception.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

It is obvious that Nyflydangler knows Jack Schitt. Or is just trying to stir the pile.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

John Cerar,
Of course we understand.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from damo450 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Check me if I am wrong Mr. Firearms and Tactical training, but, isn't learning to shoot with frayed nerves part of being a police officer? I have met very few law enforcement officers that I would be the least bit nervous to have fire off a few rounds at me. Unless it was 7 yards or less....

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from micko77 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Having been fortunate in regards to snakes with no legs, I have only laid waste to one that was intent on following me--my usual choice is to go the other way. Here in western IL there are very few copperheads, and the occasional rattler-- that's what got a couple of .38's. In my experience, most police officers are quite good at writing up reports and tickets, intervening in domestic disputes, making their presence known to quell that itch in drunks, and taking down those whose itch isn't quelled by force of numbers or less-lethal means. I did have a conversation with a badge-wearer who openly admitted to prefer waiting for the gunfire to stop, then go in; much less risky. I don't count him among my friends. In the revolver days of PPC I wanted to develop my own skills, and the IL Police Assn. had an Associate's membership that gave me entry into ranges across the state. There were a number of officers in uniform who shot quite well, in the 440+ scores of 480 possible, some much better. Sadly there were far too many who couldn't keep 6 on a man-sized target at 7 yards. I suspect they pushed pencils well.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Although Copperhead bites are almost never life threatening, I have been bitten and it's no fun at all. Very painful. It was entirely my fault that I got bitten. I sustained some tissue damage on my thumb from the treatment at the hospital emergency room by people who did not know what they were doing. They deeply incised the bite, and this is no longer considered to be necessary or desirable at all. Antivenin shots are all that is needed. Anyway, DON'T get bitten by a Copperhead. You will not enjoy it.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Sarge, my snake chaps are laid out for next week.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

Nyflyangler, don't sell that Appalachian wisdom short, you could likely learn a little something from Sarge and his kind. The Good Lord gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason, listen more, talk less.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

In the SE Asia paradise many of us "enjoyed" the GI's called that the two stepper, it ibite you take two steps and your dead I truthfully never saw one, but one of my friend's was killed by one.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

If I know a snake is not harmfl I wille walk around it, it its is on that can kill kids,,adults and pets and it's on my property.... it dies.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

harmful* sorry.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from chaslee wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

draw fast aim slow. Keep both eyes open. Some snakes got legs some don't. I like a small zipper change purse for 22's or 17's.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 30 weeks ago

The NYPD Needs to invest in more range time. This is kinda like the LAPD incident were the officers involved fired something like 150 rounds and didn't even hit the suburban they were shooting at

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from vasportsman wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

As for ammo boxes I use an orange plastic tire chain container, works great and has a handle to carry it with one hand.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from deerhunterrick wrote 2 years 24 weeks ago

I certainly hope no bad guys get the idea of dressing up like a snake and rob someplace in NY now.But from the sounds of things it would be a safer bet then looking like Lady Gaga on the street

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Nyflyangler wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Oh gee an opinion from Lil' Abner from Dogpatch about something he no experience with. Who would have thought...

FYI. Anyone who actually lives here, ie, someone who actually has the information to form a informed opinion knows that in the city, the cops are basically just another street gang. Not much different from the Crips or the Bloods.

WA Mtnhunter wrote:

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from hutter wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

I assuming that Mr. Petzal means .22 cartridges or sometimes called shells and not "bullets" as those already come in great little packages.It irks me to no ends when an "expert" uses the wrong nomenclenture to describe something. Such as when Dave talks about scope rings,but calls them mounts. There are ring mounts of course but they are intregal and not two separate pieces.Come on Dave don't show us your ass. You ARE the "expert".

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from smartz wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

where i live, the only venomous snakes are copperheads; and for copperheads 'venomous' is a technicality, for if you are bitten, and it's not a dry bite, only children are in mortal danger and that's without timely treatment. Add to that the fact they only strike when stepped on, AND they're invisible among leaves, actively trying to kill them is just plain pointless.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Infidel wrote 2 years 28 weeks ago

Back when I use to chew I'd keep the empty plastic container and fill them up with 22 shells. They fit perfect in your pocket and will not open by accident. As for the New York police shootout, at least they got the guys. I heard a story of two FBI Agents who got into a shootout with two bank robbers, after both sides ran out of ammo, the robbers got back into their SUV and drove away!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Nyflyangler wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

The NYPD doesn't need more training. They need their guns taken away and replaced with pointy sticks.

Just about anyone who lives here suspects the only reason one becomes a NYPD officer is because you can no longer join a Schutzstaffel Einsatzgruppen unit. New Yorkers know that the NYPD can shoot someone tied to a chair and the chief and brass will find a way to declare it a justifiable shooting.

The NYPD uses hollow point bullets. Bullets which under the Hague Convention of 1899, declaration III, are considered illegal and would get tied to a post and shot if you were caught with them on the battlefield. The NYPD uses these bullets against US citizens.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from willisriverbuck wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Put a dog's shock collar on the cop's leg. Then shock him as he shoots. That is pretty realistic training.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 29 weeks ago

Don't be sissies. Black mambas and cobras are slow and you can see them coming for your stomach and chest. :-)

-3 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment