Please Sign In

Please enter a valid username and password
  • Log in with Facebook
» Not a member? Take a moment to register
» Forgot Username or Password

Why Register?
Signing up could earn you gear (click here to learn how)! It also keeps offensive content off our site.

Dave Petzal on SHOT Show 2012

Recent Comments

Categories

Recent Posts

Archives

Syndicate

Google Reader or Homepage
Add to My Yahoo!
Add to My AOL

The Gun Nuts
in your Inbox

Enter your email address to get our new post everyday.

January 19, 2012

Dave Petzal on SHOT Show 2012

By David E. Petzal

In a wretched economic year, the pants-wetters, doomsayers, and purveyors of pessimism would be confounded by the life and vitality in the shooting industry. This year in Las Vegas, an estimated 60,000 people (all in the gun biz), many of whom look like Larry the Cable Guy, crowded into a maze of under-ventilated halls to ogle, grope and buy. Guns. What did you think I was talking about?

The most densely crowded venues were dedicated to the wonderful worlds of the paramilitary and law enforcement. Apparently there is an insatiable need for the equipment used in shooting, clubbing, and gassing people. There are suits of full body armor the like of which has not been seen since the Battle of Agincourt. There are all-black deathmobiles, equipped with lethal gear of all sorts. I’m told that Cop World constitutes fully one-third of the SHOT Show. How shooting and suppressing the citizenry ties into Shooting, Hunting, and Outdoor Trade is more than I can comprehend, but there it is.

There is also a very notable shortage of Booth Babes. In past years, you could hardly turn a corner without seeing some inadequately clothed young mammal who would cause you to stop dead in your tracks and give thanks to the forces of evolution. Damned if I know what happened to them.

And there are some very good new guns, and not only that, affordable new guns. There is the Ruger American Rifle, and a radical new rifle from Thompson Center, and a second-generation Weatherby Vanguard, and a semi-custom version of the New Ultra Light Arms guns (for less than half their price), a great lady’s rifle from Savage and on and on. You will be reading all about them in the posts and photo galleries to come.

Zeiss is coming out with new scopes and binoculars, plus what I believe is a unique no-questions-asked repair policy. Leupold has a powerful new Gold Ring Spotting Scope, and if you have not heard of an optics company called Meopta, trust me, you’re going to.

As life as we know it draws to a close, it’s perhaps fitting that this is one of the best SHOT Shows I’ve seen, but it sure would be nice, if we make it to 2013, to see the Booth Babes come back.

 

Comments (79)

Top Rated
All Comments
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

"How shooting and suppressing the citizenry ties into Shooting, Hunting, and Outdoor Trade is more than I can comprehend, but there it is." Heh, heh, couldn't agree more!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from oldmotorcop wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Last week I bought a Shotgun News for the first time in years and found that it was 99% tactical stuff, both shotguns and rifles.
I too wonder what's going on with the shooting and suppressing people business.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Does this tactical stuff really sell? Law Enforcement can't have the funds to support all these tactical manufacturers? There's the fuzzy cutting edge of the New Order somewhere? Set me straight on this, Guys!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from hengst wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Absolutely right again Dave, the militarization of the "American" police is a fact. Ohh but the criminals are so dangerous you say? Criminals are no more dangerous now than the 1920's.
Meopta (Czeck Rep. company) is a great company. During the very late days of the iron curtain many East German hunters used meopta on top of fine rifles from Suhl. They made good cameras also.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from chuckles wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

The department of Homeland Security is providing a lot of funding to LEO's to upgrade equipment etc. There is also a huge contingent of wannabes who cheerfully buy up the rest.
The Outdoor Channel is full of programs for people who feel their lives are in danger and want to know what to do if there convoy is attacked on the way to work.
None of that, however, justifies a lack of booth babes.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

I have been to these outdoor shows usually with my best buddy who is a retired state cop, and we never believed for a minute it was for the cops. Its fantasy toys for the zombie killers that watch too much TV. We have whole generations that couldn't find (the great state of) Montana on a map or know who Harry Truman or Teddy Roosevelt was (or what the constitution is either) but honestly believe we are about to be attacked by aliens and zombies from outer space. Seriously!

I am a firm believer in the 2nd amendment, (its there for a reason), but come on folks; some of these guys shouldn't be allowed to drive, let alone own a weapon, then we want to sell them tactical this or that. Thats what scares me. At some point all the responsible people will have all the guns they can use (I know I am pretty much there), and then the manufactures will have to market to the kids who never grew up and to the just plain irresponsible.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Chuckles; Can't agree more. I saw them Sat morning on the range when I was practicing for rifle season. Wearing camo T shirts to a range to shoot their AR at 25 yards. I want to shout: "Hey guys, the GUARD is hiring, they need guys to work a CLP (Combat Logistics Patrol" in the 'cracks-is-stan'. Get into the game.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from PbHead wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

In these hard times maybe the Booth Babes have staked out the casinos in search of easier prey. Hang in there Dave, the future looks promising.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from CL3 wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Good post, Petzal.

I think chuckles' comment above sums it up for me as well. Pump the brakes, boys!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

You know the economy is bad if Hooters has better, ugh, babes than the gun industry.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from JakeT_little.Racks wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

This guy knows whats up. We love guns...but we loves booth babes more

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Boy, it's a relief to know I'm not a voice crying in the wilderness. However, seems like every time I level my sights on zombie-killer fever I take a broadside of minuses (like that matters to me ... pffft). Again, I am relieved to find I'm in good company.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Conservative Women have to work this year, they can only find Liberal Women

Conservative women vs. Liberal women

Turn up the volume!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIgAKxASPuw&list=LLrPfxxdjnh2R25U9Fny2M4Q...

____________________________________________________

Bonus points!

"Gun Nuts and Skirts"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEIKG1ZkaOI&list=LLrPfxxdjnh2R25U9Fny2M4Q...

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Everytime I see local sheriffs decked out in more gear than Seal Team 6 on Operation Geronimo, I think to myself, "You just gotta wonder". The one today had been sitting on his arse in Starbucks so long that his cruiser was covered in as much snow as my truck was that had been sitting across the street for two hours... Maybe all the tactical gear weighted his non-tactical ass down so much that it was too much to waddle out to fight crime for truth, justice, and the American way!

Y'all reckon there is a Tactical Merit Badge these days?

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from dovebuster wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

MtnHunter, That's funny!
Dave, Due to the economey, booth babes are to costly to transport with all the gear ie make-up,luggage and the need of body guards to protect them from shotshow isle wandering bearded fellows. Oh yea the luggaage is not for clothing just all the other crap women carry that is of no use. That the answer I get from my wife when we travel. I ask what's in this suit case? answer; nothing really just stuff.
On another not I request a comparison from the current semi-auto hunting rifles on the market but please no black tactical stuff. Real hunting rifles (Browning, Benelli, Merkel. Thanks

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from chasclifton wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

I am just back from SHOT Show too, and the "tactical" law-enforcement emphasis turned me off too.. Keep going on this topic.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

WAM, that reminds me of one of my dad's stellar moments of jocularity. We were sitting in Moose's Saloon one afternoon having pizza when he suddenly waxed philosophical, which was very unusual for Dad. "Son, you have lots of education, can you tell me something about Buddhism? Do you think there's any truth to that reincarnation stuff?" Startled, I replied, also somewhat philsophically, that I couldn't say one way or the other, religion is a life mystery of personal preference, goodness is good no matter what one worships, blah, blah, blah. When I finally quit yacking he thought for a minute and said, "Well, I hope it's not true. I haven't been such a good guy lately and I'm a bit concerned the Almighty will send me back as a seat cover for one of the local cop cruisers." As I recall, I blew suds out my nose!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Oryx wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Oh c'mon Mtnhunter...Starbucks and tactical are made for each other. Plus, Magpul makes a iPhone case you know.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from firedog11 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

My local LEOs have an Armored car. We have LEOs in major cities and smaller carrying submachine guns in subways and malls. I don't expect pin point shooting when something goes wrong. I expect mass collateral damage. Hell NY city claims they can down a small plane. The swat teams in Va and Md have made raids on wrong addresses and killed several people. The amount of money handed out by Federal agencies such as USDA and FEMA in the name of DHS is astounding. Every Fed agency has a swat team. I don't believe we are being invaded by zombies or aliens unless you are referring to people like pelosi and reid. But I do worry when people who supposedly believe in the Bill of Rights fall into the trap of putting down other peoples choice of a firearm as wrong just because you don't like them or they don't fit your idea of hunting rifle. Guys with bows and arrows probably said the same thing about the first guy to hunt with a matchlock.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from nunyabinis wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

"The tactics the SWAT team was using were also becoming more like the military," Bill laments. "We even got a military Humvee. We were now wearing BDUs and carrying fully automatic machine guns and wearing the same body armor as soldiers were in Iraq. All of our 870 Remington shotguns were removed from the patrol cars and replaced with full-automatic H&K-made G36 machine guns — to the protest of all the patrol officers, mind you. If anyone spoke out they were `dealt with.' In the course of 3 years they went through over 50 patrol officers. And this is a department with only about 47 officers total."

The process Bill describes is a peculiar type of alembic, distilling the worst elements from a recruiting pool to serve in local police forces. Rather than retaining people of character and principle, the process selects for the officious, the self-satisfied, the opportunistic, and especially for those fixated on power.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w49.html

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from DSMbirddog wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Thank you WAM. You hit it right on the head.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ableskeever wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

To boost sales to the general public, a remake of Red Dawn is in order.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Dar is a reason I don't watch the show "COPS". Alaska State Troopers, now that's Law Enforcement at its finest!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from walt in wi wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

It is unfortunate that "tactical" is what sells products to the video-game generation. I second what RockyS said about not growing up and being irresponsible.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom-Tom wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

What disturbes me more than the lack of booth babes is the growing trend promoting the fear that we are in constant danger from home invasion, street gangs, drug-crazed psychos and terrorist attack. Truth be known, fear sells, whatever the product. Remember fallout shelters...swine flu? As for Cop World, let them have their own show and let SHOT return to it's original mission and purpose, the active promotion of shooting, hunting and the outdoor trade.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I make no bones about it. I don't like opening a hunting magazine and have it shoved down my throat that an AR15 with bayonet mounts, flashlight attachments and God know what else is needed to hunt deer, coyotes, woodchuck, etc.. All it is, is a HUGE sales pitch to those gullible enough to believe it. And apparently there are plenty of these gullible people out there right now. I open up a hunting magazine these days, and it looks more like "Soldier of Fortune" magazine than it does a hunting magazine.

Looks like some here are wondering why police departments are arming themselves with all this military type equipment? Well, if any idiot off the street can buy up this stuff these days, why wouldn't the police want to be at least equally armed??? This nonsense won't stop it seems. Maybe if fewer people off the street were allowed to buy all these lethal toys, then the police wouldn't feel the need to?? Some posters here have questioned the sanity and responsibility of some of these military styled weapon purchasers. Well, just you wait until one of these clowns decides to wreck some real havoc with one of these toys. And it's only a matter of time until it does happen. All gun owners will pay the price then.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

The American Gun nut comunity is now officaly infected.
A sad day indeed

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

OHH
Now that's funny!

I am happy for the local constabulary to sit on their duffs. that way they are not bothering citizens.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

hengst,
Just to clarify something, you made the statement that crimnals are no more dangerous than they were in the 1920's. You need to know that they have access to all of the new toys that are seen at the SHOT show most of the time before Law Enforcement gets them. With over 35 years service I saw the transition of the crimnals firepower during that period. That being said we weren't decked out with all of the things that you see at the shows, in fact our duty belts were pretty bare compared to most police departments. Running through the woods I wanted to be as "light" as I could be and at 17 pounds my duty belt was heavy enough with firearm, 2 magazines, handcuffs, pepper spray, and portable radio. If I was working in a big city enviorment I may want something else probably a taser. I carried an 870 in my patrol vehicle and usually a bolt action high powered rifle. But yes the crimnals now have access to all of the modern firearm and weapons that you see at the SHOT show and most of them have the weapons.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from dleurquin wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Affordable new guns. Yes!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Thank you Sarge01.
I had a big thing all typed up erlier but thought I should take a minute before runing off at the fingers. I think it is fair for the people to show thier equipment and firearms at the SHOT show as it is for the outdoor and shooting comunity, wich wether you like it or not hunters (and fisherman)are a part of. I don't think the AR deserves any bad mouthing from anyone either if you don't like it don't buy it. I now that seems to easy right?
This is to the BAN THE EVIL BLACK RIFLE crowd,
That sounds all fine and good to you until it's your old revolver or your deer rifle they come after aint it? The second amendment defends in writing my right as an American to own that rifle and your right to hunt with anything other than a bow and arrow. So quit bashing someone just because you don't like how many bullets their gun holds or what ever your problem is with them.
And yes SOME cops are stupid. Some doctors, Lawyers,dentists, and whatever other profesion you'd like to insert are to. But as a whole the LEO comunitie hasn't the slightest idea what goes on durning the average shift for the police their city, county, or state has on the pay role. And yes the criminals are alot more dangerous today than they were in the 20's. That is a prime example of a misinformed coment that someone somewhere will take as gospel truth. And some times when a police officer makes a traffic stop it's their last. Domestic violence calls and traffic stops are the two most dangerous things a police officer can become involved in, the more options to deal with it the beter things usualy turn out for the other person involved (ie the guy or gal other than the cop. And most of this crap that they wear on their body is so they don't have to shoot the idiot that won't take his hands out of his pockets when a gun is pointed at him and he is told to do so by Law Enforcement officers.
P.S
My gun belt is pretty bare to.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from jim in nc wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

DP: Of course the shooting industry is doing a great business. The NRA has scared the hell out of everyone ever since Obama was elected, and we have responded by buying more and more hardware, need it or not. I think the gun companies should be contributing big bucks to Obama; the NRA has turned him into the best friend Smith and Wesson et al. ever had.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Proverbs wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Amen to the posts above noting the militarization of local police forces. I read in North American Hunter that many state university police forces are asking for (and getting) huge increases in budgets to buy swat-type gear, machine guns, military-style vehicles, etc.
This militarization of local police began in the aftermath of 9/11. Janet Napolitano/DHS has taken this to a whole new level...and maybe for a new meaning, one in conjunction with the DHS taking bids in every state for temporary detention centers. This should be raising eyebrows across mainstream America, but I don't see that happening. In the meantime, I believe the militarization of our poice, in both equipment and training, is what has led to the more-frequent use of deadly force and especially of Tasers, which are alleged to have caused about 500 deaths in the past 10 years. One of my points is that some local LEOs are becoming less effective at crime prevention but are earning a negative reputation as a natural side-affect of their militarization. We are losing freedoms every day while our government takes on more power. Again, a lot of this began after 9/11. It looks like the terrorists have partly succeeded in making our society fearful, and we are worse off for that.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

You guys remember Jim Zumbo? I do. Good writer. Wrote Outdoor Life's hunting column about ten years ago. Badmouthed black rifles on the internet. In a matter of days Zumbo was gone like Elvis's mom. The saddest thing about him was that he dinosaured himself to death. The shooting world had changed and he didn't find out until it was too late.

The Second Amendment says nothing about ducks or deer. Look, fellers. When even a company as mossbacked as Remington makes ARs and 1911s, the handwriting is not just on the wall, it's skywritten in mile high letters. We live in a world where all you need to start a lethal riot is a power outage, a hurricane, or for your local NBA team to win a championship game. We're the guys playing with the toys, shooting our ducks and deer.

Me, I don't want to be characterized by some lawyer as a vicious lunatic, so I defend my house with a Winchester Trapper in .30-30. But 170+ cops got killed on the job last year. If I was a cop I'd take every advantage.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

You guys remember Jim Zumbo? I do. Good writer. Wrote Outdoor Life's hunting column about ten years ago. Badmouthed black rifles on the internet. In a matter of days Zumbo was gone like Elvis's mom. The saddest thing about him was that he dinosaured himself to death. The shooting world had changed and he didn't find out until it was too late.

The Second Amendment says nothing about ducks or deer. Look, fellers. When even a company as mossbacked as Remington makes ARs and 1911s, the handwriting is not just on the wall, it's skywritten in mile high letters. We live in a world where all you need to start a lethal riot is a power outage, a hurricane, or for your local NBA team to win a championship game. We're the guys playing with the toys, shooting our ducks and deer.

Me, I don't want to be characterized by some lawyer as a vicious lunatic, so I defend my house with a Winchester Trapper in .30-30. But 170+ cops got killed on the job last year. If I was a cop I'd take every advantage.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Yeah, we remember Zumbo. I bet there are still a good many writers who believe exactly the same thing he did then, but of course now will never speak their minds after they saw what happened to Zumbo. Damn shame. A gun writer can freely say that they may not like pump-actions shotguns over auto-loaders, or lever-actions rifles in comparison to bolt-actions, but just dare say that they are not fond of the para-military stuff and they are dead meat and lose their jobs. Something smells here in my opinion when a gun writer of all people can't write what he wants about guns.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I certainly agree with all the commentary regarding paramilitary crap and view the militarization of the police with alarm. In my view our sorry government and homeland security jackasses are promoting all this because they view all of US as the future zombies that they will soon find some excuse for suppressing. The terrorists have really won inasmuch as they have succeeded in changing our whole culture and government since 9/11; just as they said they intended to do. And our citizenry and governmental fools fell for it. Scary and disgusting.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

OHH COULDN'T MAKE THAT ONE UP!

WAM, I'LL SECOND DAT!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from iron giant wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

To all the Black Rifle haters. You do realize that your revered bolt actions began as military weapons? Everybody loves a Mauser 98 action. They're arguably the strongest most reliable actions around. And the Mauser 98 action came from, that's right, the Mauser 98. The rifle that with minor modifications served in both World Wars and was the standard service rifle of myriad nations for decades. I can just see the guys hunting with an old winchester or muzzleloader picking on the poor guy who started hunting with a bolt action. It is a natural progression for military arms to slowly become sporting arms. You do realize that the firearm itself is a military invention and was later adopted for hunting? If you don't like Black rifles, fine, but don't go talking trash about them for no reason.

Also, to anyone so unthinking to suggest tactical weapons should be banned, I challenge you to read up on why the Second Ammendment exists. A few on hear are on the right track saying that it isn't about hunting deer. But it is also about more then keeping crooks out of your house in the middle of the night. The original intent was to have a populous that was armed like a military. Look up the definition of militia. Militia as used in the Second Ammendment can pretty much be defined as every able bodied man. Thus every able bodeid man should be armed as a soldier. This was because you cannot take the freedoms of a heavily armed people. Thomas Jeferson said that the Tree of Liberty must often be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots. (Slight paraphrase, as I can't remeber the exact wording). The founding fathers saw a heavily armed society as neccesary to the maintenance of freedom. The Pennsylvania Constitution in its version of the Bill of Rights even grants its citizens to rebel against their government and establish a new one if the old becomes tyrannical. Not that any such right is created on paper in a Constitution it is a pre-existing eternal right. Our founders meant for the people to be so heavily armed that a tyrannicla government could never develop. So to everyone even open to considering the virtue of banning tactical weapons, realize that the day Americans have are left with only sporting arms would be almost as equally black as the day they have none. To maintain our freedom we must first and foremost, among many other things, stand together against any notion or attmept to ban even some of our weapons.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from iron giant wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Oh and the militarization of our police departments is certainly a most troubling trend. Our Republic did not maintain even a standing army until about a century ago, and one of the main threads of the ideology of the American Revolution was that maintaining a standing army in time of peace was a death sentence to freedom. Because of the way the world has changed since the late 1700's of course we must maintain a strong military. But I wonder if the same principle might be applied to law enforcement. I believe that law enforcement agencies should be relatively weak. If everyone in society were well armed there would be much less need for para military police units.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Good work Crusty!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

This is actually a great post. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. I like to read posts of people who disagree with me. Maybe I am wrong, and all I need is convinced. That is democracy in action.

Cases in point:
I have a 63 y.o, friend. Vietnam Vet. Former Marine. Really great guy. He shoots in an AR league (yah I didn't know there was one either). The local military base actually lets the league use their range. He is reliving an time of life I can't imagine. No one wants to take his AR away. He is a responsible gun owner. I have a 1911 I target pistol. Reminds me of the 1911 piece of crap that was my assigned weapon, Many, Many years ago. No one wants to take that away either.

Now compare that to when I now go into a sporting goods store (and we all have to check out the new guns, you know you do), and there is nearly always a woman (with no wedding ring) looking at the pistols who hasn't a clue what she is looking at, and there is nearly always a guy hanging over her shoulder and telling her which one he wants. We have all seen it, and there are posters everywhere warning against straw man purchases Or a bunch of 20 somethings tuff looking guys who wouldn't know a deer from an Elk looking at the AR's and tactical weapons and only one of them speaks english. Guess which one. Or a few months ago I was buying a new scope and a woman was buying a new coach 20 gauge, cowboy action shooter gun (I got nothing against that), after looking at a really 20g nice over/under. 2 different guns for 2 different things. So I asked her what she was going to use it for, maybe help her out, Her response is her husband and her were going hunting for rabbits. With a short barrel coach gun. Really. Or my personal favorite: There are 2 public ranges with in 30 minute drive of where I now live. One near a typically white collar urban area and 1 in a blue collar area. In the urban area, it is often used by guys with .40 cal and 9mm 3inch barrels shooting at a man sized target 15 feet away and having to aim hard to do it. One had a holster one his leg. It has guys Saturday morning playing with their AR. at targets 25 yards away. The one in the blue collar area has guys showing their grand kids how to shoot a .22 and a hand loader trying his new bullets, Its 2 different worlds.
No wonder cops want to arm themselves better. I would too. You want to shoot and AR at a legitimate range and distance. OK I am fine with that.

But a lot of these new gun owners are clueless. This ain't a new computer or IPOD or fly rod these guys area playing with. Guns belong in the hands of responsible people, and we as the gun owner community had better find a way to come up with a solution or there will be 1 too many Columbines, or Virginia Tec's and John Q public will have had enough and we will all suffer for it. Remember until that nut shot JFK, you could buy rifles in the mail. Now you have trouble shipping them across state lines.

Before you fire back and say who am I to talk: I wore my countries uniform on weekend ends for over 20 years and have 2 tours in the sandbox, before I said enough. I'll bet I have shot almost as many rounds as Mr, Petzel. OK almost half as many. The mightiest technologically advanced army in the world was fought back against with beat up old AK's and fertilizer bombs, (some outside help- 4 letters starts with an I) and a lot of smarts. Nuts, Zombie killers, kids pretending to be men, the emotionally crippled and amateurs aren't protecting our 2nd amendment freedom they are slowly eroding it. With great freedom goes great responsibility. As the gun owning community we need to come up with some sensible way to keep guns from the hands of the irresponsible or we (Not they) will pay that price. OK. I'm done. Bring on your minuses.

If I get dinged like some of the guys here, I will consider myself in good company.

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

No minus from me Rocky I feel the same way.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Rocky, you invaded the Inner Sanctum; beat the crap out of the sacred AR, black rifle cow. Now the Black rifle Gun Nazis will come out of the woodwork in force singing 2A rights.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Rocky, no minuses from this vet and former cop. For a long time I've been singing that same "it's up to us gunowners to right the ship." And long before I moved to Canada. You hit it on the head! I never have been a firm advocate for 250 year old definitions of "militia" no more than I am with 250 year old gun technology. Our militia is the National Guard. Obviously our "militia" wouldn't be much good if the militiamen showed up to meet a threat to national security with a thousand different kinds of "home defense" armament from squirrel guns to antique collectibles. Our "militia" is useless unless it has the training and experise to use gernade launchers and jet fighters but I for one don't want those weapons kept at "home" in their garages or basements!

What I find scary is the paramilitary closet anarchists who think that having guns at home is what keeps our governments honest (yes, a very few folks hold to that notion up here too). Our votes and our free press keep our governments honest. Always have and always will. Guns in the home has NEVER been part of the recipe.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Dave Petzal, my humble opinion buddy is that you should get married. And go to church. But maybe not in that order.

WAM = could be that the LEO in the exoskeleton drinking coffee all day is just playing it safe. You will remember the 4 Lakewood Officers who were gunned down on a Sunday morning in a coffee shop! Starbucks maybe isn't the safest place for lawmen.

Rockysquirrel = thanks for your service. Making "responsible people" is the work primarily of parents and family, then the larger community. With the continual breakdown of family and home, particularly from the 60's through the 90's, there is little left of a stable, moral and responsible society in the 21st Century. John Adams gave this warning in the late 18th Century: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

As for AR's, I'm not too interested. But if I ever get the itch it will be scratched with a rifle chambered for 50 Beowolf!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

focusfront,
Yep, the gun industry ditched Zumbo like a bad fitting pair of shoes.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Apologies for the rant. Responsible citizenship and responsible gun ownership is something I get worked up about. As for the all the guys who can quote, Jefferson and Adams and the second amendment. I am humbled to be the the presence of true patriots; no matter where you fall on this issue. For the record I have nothing against AR and AR shooters. If your passion is AR target shooting/competition (and you know what you are doing) Enjoy, But please suffer no illusions. Your AR is no more a defense against a government gone bad than my deer rifle. An oppressive military can now see through walls and accurately shoot you from farther away then you can see. Freedoms best defense is the 16 year old kid, who plays little league or Friday night football and does his/her homework and goes fishing/hunting with their Dad/Mom. Democracies best defense is building character in the next generation. I could quote Reagan about freedom not being more than one generation from extinction, but I have blogged way too much for one day. Although I find that the Government now claims the right to indefinitely suspend habeas corpus and execute a US citizen it perceives to be a danger highly disturbing.

Also for the record Jim Zumbo, is still very much writing outdoor articles. He just did a nice article for BUGLE, the RMEF publication. November -December 2011: "Outlaws to Outstanding, A guide to Outfitters" According to the byline he has been writing for the BUGLE for the last 25 years.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

The way the wackos have executed attacks on LEOs in the NW, I won't sit in a coffee shop or cafe where a bunch of cops are hanging out. Who knows when they might be a target?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ITHACASXS wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Purveyors of Pessimism? Great line. Right up there with ''Nattering Nabobs of Negativity''. For $64,000,(not really, I'm Ithacasxs not Purdysxs) who remembers that line and its author?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom-Tom wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

The quote is from the late William Safire.

And to RockySquirrel, thank you for clearly expressing what many may be thinking. I almost typed the phrase "should be thinking" but this to each their own thoughts.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Sorry, I should have put Dad's moment of jocularity in its proper context. At the time, every member of our local police force could easily have met the minimum weight requirements for a sumo wrestling tournament.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quahog wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Bit off-topic, but anyone have anything to say about the "new" Winchester Model 71 ?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Looks every bit as good a gun as the old ones. Too bad they (Thompson?) are only putting a handful of them on the market (all had to be ordered at SHOT show). That was one of the FINEST weapons manufactured by Winchester and probably the only saddle gun I would ever have wanted. That was an elk-killing son of a gun (pardon the pun). Exquisite crafstmanship and utility is only available in limited quantities at SHOT show while zombie guns are being mass-marketed there? Sad commentary on where things are headed.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Ithaca, I am old enough that I should have remembered that quote, but sadly that particular member of the league of "crooks" self-destructed while I was overseas in the military. The "news" that made it through to us troops via the "Stars and Stripes" newspaper or Armed Forces Radio Network was, shall we say ... somewhat filtered. For our own good of course.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quahog wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Ontario Honker :
You're saying that Thompson is manufacturing the Winchester 71 ? Right heah in NH ? Patent expiration ? Totally agree with your comments relative to where we're headed.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

To Tom-Tom: Safire wrote it, I believe, but Spiro Agnew made it popular. Whenever I think we've hit the bottom of the barrel politically, I think of Spiro Agnew and realize that we have a way to go.

To Quahog: Being a fan of the 71, I took a close look at the SHOT Show samples, and as nearly as I can tell they are perfect duplicates of the originals, even down to the crummy checkering on the Deluxe version. They're not nearly as slick because they haven't been cycling for 50 years, but they're nice guns indeed. The price is in the $1400-$1600 range, which is a lot less than you'd pay for an original in new condition.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Zumbo had a program on The outdoor channel last year. Have not seen any so far this year. But he seems to have landed on his feet!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from jbird wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Very enjoyable thread you've created Mr. Petzal.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I catch a show now and then on one of the Sportsmen Channel.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from john c. wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

A couple of years ago my wife came home and laughingly said: "This guy I work with wants to know if you can recommend a gun for his zombie apocalypse kit?" At the time I ignored the guy thinking he was some sort of lone goofball, but now I'm beginning to think there are actually a significant number of people out there preparing to do battle with swarms of walking dead.

At the end of the day I don't know which is worse. The fact that there are people immature and naive enough to take such nonsense seriously. Or that their are companies out there willing to cater to these people's immaturity (can anyone say anti-zombie ammo). I mean we are talking about guns and ammunition after all. And while we all know guns don't kill people; stupid people with guns can certainly kill people.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

John C, It must be the Mayan 2012 Thing. Not sure if the zombie infestation is solo or alien inspired.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from mdezort wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Well, look at all the sanctimonious "traditionalists" posting their disgust with the black gun crowd. Last time I checked, we were all on the same side against those who have been trying to take away our guns rights. SO WHAT if the new generation doesn't like to shoot the way you did!!! It does my heart good to go to the range and see a multitude of youth and women learning to shoot. Folks, this is what we fought for, for years. Face it, those of us near urban areas don't have many opportunities to hunt like we did when we grew up in rural areas. Allow us the fun shooting paper and clays without judging us. Frankly, you sound like a bunch of left coast liberals bemoaning the rise of gun use.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from mdezort wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Petzal, take your meds man. You sound crankier than usual, and that's saying something.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Well, forgive me mdezort for not being a sheep and having a brain of my own. I have news for you, the "liberals" I know think I'm a gray-haired old "conservative" because I own a gun and kill animals/birds. "Why, he MUST be a redneck." I'm proud that I don't fit ANY mold. Shows that I have a better chance of having my head out of the poop shoot.

It's a damned shame these wannabee home defense killers haven't had to hold loved ones in their arms and watch the life run out of them. I have had too much of that and I wouldn't wish it on the parent/spouse/sibling of even the worst kind of person. Yes, I could probably use lethal force to protect myself against a zombiefied home invader but I can tell you, after what I have been through, I wouldn't be in any big hurry to do so, even at my own peril. And it would wreck me if I had to do it. Most of the idiots that played with that stupid zombie killer crap at SHOT have NO idea what they are playing with, and I'm NOT talking about the guns either.

The exponentially increasing numbers of people who buy these insanity toys aren't thinking paper targets or clays, they're fantasizing about death and destruction of people. THAT is what disturbs the majority of the folks who have posted on this thread. Because we are disturbed about it doesn't mean we're throwing in with the antis. And if we eventually advocate acting on our feelings, it won't be without honest, thoughtful, concensus. And, yes, reluctance.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from ITHACASXS wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Ontario Honker, I'm not what anyone would call a ''Black gun'' guy, I'm not even a rifleman in the true sense of the word, only because all of my hunting and most of my shooting is done with a shotgun. However, I would own one if given the chance, though I think shooting a M1 garand might be more fun, Who knows? As far as it being a damned shame ''these people'' you speak of not given the chance to watch another human die is something I do disagree with. A lot of people dream of fighting and shooting and all that. And there is a bit too much bravado slung around at times. So what? Let it go in one ear and out the other if it annoys you. Its talk, just talk. Most of the griping I hear is from the anti-AR bunch. Yeah, I wish more shooters hunted too, but as long as they support the whole show, I'm all for them busting a few extra caps at goofy looking targets. Remember,from the basement Daisy BB gun shooter to the .50 cal Barrett folks, the anti gun people hate us all.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Back to what OH had to say about seeing other people die. I have had to alot of years ago. I trained to kill people for 35 years. Thank God I never had to take a life, but I was prepared to if I had to. This is just my opinion and I know I will get jumped on and the minus piled on but I think that the increased violence in our country today is because of the violent TV shows and the extreme violent video games that children play about killing people. It seems like all of our video games are about killing people and they are fed a steady diet about this. When I grew up the worst killing I ever saw was when the Lone Ranger shot a bad guy and then it wasn't as graphic as it is now. I may be old fashioned and way out of touch but I have done a lot of thinking and this is my take on the matter.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

RockySquirrel;

Good to find out that Zumbo is still writing. I always thought he got a raw deal.

However, this is a free country. If Zumbo dislikes black rifles, all good. But if you do like them, you may not want to spend money on a magazine to read the gun advice of a guy who doesn't address your questions.

One unexpectedly good thing about black rifles is that since AR-15 sized uppers can only hold a round like the 6.8 SPC, deer hunters have returned to the .250 Savage level of power that we never should have left in the first place. Unless you like 400 yard shots over very windy terrain, shooting deer with a .300 Magnum is playing rifleman.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I'm confused as to how it is a "Damn Shame" that that someone has not had the misfortune to watch a loved one die? And what makes someone a "home defense killer"? Am I a "home defense killer" because I keep a pistole close by in case I need it to defend myself and my loved ones? Because if it comes down to I have no problem shooting some low life that threatens my familys saftey. I have actuale training not just range practice so am I now off the poopoo list? I don't mind people disagreeing and I'm sorry if I'm coming accross as rude but I don't understand these comments at all.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I forgot to add that no one will get a minus from me for simply disagreeing. I don't like to click on that button at all. If I like it I'll plus it but if I don't I usualy just click myself over to something else.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Let me shed a little light if I may. I spend quite a bit of time on a public range. Fisrt I'm not against black guns. I see people break out all of the newest Zombie killing equipment and all of the other newest toys and then on more than one occassion I have heard them say " I just can't wait till someone tries to break into my house I will light them up" and then they pat and stroke their new toys like I would my wife. I think this is what OH is talking about. I have firearms in my home for home defense and being highly trained a person wouldn't do well breaking into my house, but I pray to God that this is the last thing that happens and that I don't have to use deadly force because no one wins in a situation like that. People talk about taking a human life like it is nothing at all and an everyday thing and this is what upsets and bothers me. Our society dosen't value human life anymore and it is apparrent when you look at the evening news.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Sarge01,
Someone who just can't wait to "light someone up" has obviously never taken a life, never seen the life go out of somone's eyes, or is just a plain old garden variety idiot.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I was off this topic. Usually I say my peace, (and this time i said far more of my peace then usual) and move on and let others say theirs.

But I gotta tell say; Sarge and WA Mtnhunter; your last comments was both some serious sage wisdom. Thats something that all of us should read and read again.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

People that can't wait to shoot someone are stupid. If someone is breaking into my house they will meet someone with a gun and the training to use it. I hope to god and all that is is good in this world that I never have to use my self defense guns on anything but paper targets and wild game (AR for yotes and hogs, shotgun for pretty much the same). Some of the people that are chomping at the bit so to speek, are just as stated above idiots.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from coachsjike wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

you would think in an area like las vegas there would not be a shortage of booth babes. guess i am the one who is dumbfounded.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Subzero wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

In my opinion anyone with a lick of common sense knows firearms demand a great deal of respect. I also believe anyone with a shred of humanity feels an awful sense of tragedy when some psychopathic scumbag kills innocent people. My concern is the thought that banning one particular type of rifle or handgun will stop these monsters. My 1 ton ford truck could plow through a crowd of people faster than a black rifle wielding mad man. I also believe these video games and television shows that cheapen human life bring down society as a whole, but that free speech thing gets tricky. Also the comment earlier about free speech and the press protecting people from the government? Really? Look how well it worked for all the peaceful students in tienamen square in china. Every free country in the world got to watch tanks roll over these kids. China sure has improved their human rights since then, huh?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

Subzero; Yes Sir and you and your Ford Pickup is (state) licensed.

No one, not even the oldest crankiest old geezer, among us in any of these blogs has said, "Take their guns away" No one in any of these blogs I have read has said we want to restrict firearms from any responsible gun owner. We may not like your choice but no one said take your choice away. My guess is as you have thought this through YOU AND 99.99% of the guys on the blog are not the loose cannons we are talking about. At the risk of losing this argument once again, and i thought it was over:

If you read carefully the point people are trying to make here is there is a thin group of whack-o's who have linked their right to build a bazooka in their basement and store grenades in their garage to my right to own a deer rifle. They have linked the alcoholic right to keep a 9mm in his closet or some guy who watches too much TV with no training or insight beyond some stupid detective show to my right to target shoot my 1911. They are not the same, no matter how many people on both sites of the media make a pretty good living trying to scare the public into linking them up. One of the best things that happened to gun owners is removal of guns from women abusers (yes some lawyers abused that). Fewer drunks murdering their women with guns means fewer negative headlines and less weasels trying to pass silly guns laws when they don't enforce the ones they have, Laws (OK some laws) are moved by the American public opinion and that is moved by headlines. For example: Whats wrong with requiring all firearms be insured? What straw man buyer would buy a gun he has to pay insurance on it forever. Your pickups insured. Whats wrong with requiring all pistols owners take a course before purchase? You have to take one to get a drivers license or a hunting license, Why not present proof to buy a handgun or any gun? Some states I lived in require that now. Or no purchase of a handgun less than 5inch barrel with out a state issued carry permit? How about no carry permit with out a drug test? You have to get one to drive a school bus or a semi. Why not to carry a gun? How about you lose your carry permit for a year with a DUI? How about require a UL approved gun safe for greater than 3 firearms in a home? Or a special STATE ISSUED license to buy and own a AR or black rifle? Agree or not, I'll bet most of us could come up with a bunch more smart ways to keep guns away from people who shouldn't have them. When we do that we ARE PROTECTING OURSELVES from the idiots who want to take them away, The issue is not polarizing, there is plenty of middle ground for good ideas to help ourselves.

Most of these things responsible gun owners are doing now and as I said some states are already requiring them. By keeping firearms out of the hands of the irresponsible, the emotionally challenged, the drug abuser, the wife beater we are keeping gun violence out of the news and the idiots who make a pretty good living on the nightly news gearing up the public. And yes; I have a carry permit, and yes I carry occasionally and that was one of the best laws ever passed too, it proves that nearly all gun owners are a responsible, civic minded, stable, careful Americans and not the loonies we get painted as. Now I'm done.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from iron giant wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

I get what you guys are saying about the nutcases that are just waiting to get to shoot somebody with their gun. I completely agree that that sort of thinking is psychotic, not to mention wrong. But seriously read up on the purpose of the second ammendment. It was to ensure that a Tyranny could not be established. There may be a few common sense things that could be done to help prevent total nutcase from getting there hands on weapons, but any such measures need to be held to the highest scrutiny imaginable. We need to be sure that any such measure does not infringe on gun rights, that its abuse in the future could not infringe on gun rights, and that it does not set a precedent for future legisaltion that will infringe on gun rights. Part of such scrutiny is not allowing any laws that ban or regualte "assuat weapons" (black rifles, tactical guns, and such). The fact is that in a free society there will always be some measure of risk. We could not pass legislation that would guarantee keeeping guns out of the hands of nuts and bad guys without harming the rights of law abiding citizens. In order to allow citizens to exercise their rights with no government molestation there will be enough leeway in the system for some people who shouldn't have guns to get them. I for one would rather have the problem in society of the one in millions crazy gunman then an overreaching, tyrannical government.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from JackB wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

I have to admit, I am tired of having "tacticool" guns everywhere. Far too many of those who buy/own them are irresponsible- they think they're commandos just because they own an AR of kind or another.

On a semi-related note, as some have said here, kids are fed a diet of mayhem and violence in games and television. Its something I am tired of. I grew up watching re-runs of old classics- Westerns, Dragnet, Hawaii Five-O and more. I can't stomach watching the majority of crime dramas these days. An Example- the NEW "Hawaii Five-O" is typically full of a 3 to 4 gunfights, the new Kono beating someone up at least once, and prisoners/suspects being tortured for information. Nothing like the original, and total Garbage.

0 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment

from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

This is actually a great post. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. I like to read posts of people who disagree with me. Maybe I am wrong, and all I need is convinced. That is democracy in action.

Cases in point:
I have a 63 y.o, friend. Vietnam Vet. Former Marine. Really great guy. He shoots in an AR league (yah I didn't know there was one either). The local military base actually lets the league use their range. He is reliving an time of life I can't imagine. No one wants to take his AR away. He is a responsible gun owner. I have a 1911 I target pistol. Reminds me of the 1911 piece of crap that was my assigned weapon, Many, Many years ago. No one wants to take that away either.

Now compare that to when I now go into a sporting goods store (and we all have to check out the new guns, you know you do), and there is nearly always a woman (with no wedding ring) looking at the pistols who hasn't a clue what she is looking at, and there is nearly always a guy hanging over her shoulder and telling her which one he wants. We have all seen it, and there are posters everywhere warning against straw man purchases Or a bunch of 20 somethings tuff looking guys who wouldn't know a deer from an Elk looking at the AR's and tactical weapons and only one of them speaks english. Guess which one. Or a few months ago I was buying a new scope and a woman was buying a new coach 20 gauge, cowboy action shooter gun (I got nothing against that), after looking at a really 20g nice over/under. 2 different guns for 2 different things. So I asked her what she was going to use it for, maybe help her out, Her response is her husband and her were going hunting for rabbits. With a short barrel coach gun. Really. Or my personal favorite: There are 2 public ranges with in 30 minute drive of where I now live. One near a typically white collar urban area and 1 in a blue collar area. In the urban area, it is often used by guys with .40 cal and 9mm 3inch barrels shooting at a man sized target 15 feet away and having to aim hard to do it. One had a holster one his leg. It has guys Saturday morning playing with their AR. at targets 25 yards away. The one in the blue collar area has guys showing their grand kids how to shoot a .22 and a hand loader trying his new bullets, Its 2 different worlds.
No wonder cops want to arm themselves better. I would too. You want to shoot and AR at a legitimate range and distance. OK I am fine with that.

But a lot of these new gun owners are clueless. This ain't a new computer or IPOD or fly rod these guys area playing with. Guns belong in the hands of responsible people, and we as the gun owner community had better find a way to come up with a solution or there will be 1 too many Columbines, or Virginia Tec's and John Q public will have had enough and we will all suffer for it. Remember until that nut shot JFK, you could buy rifles in the mail. Now you have trouble shipping them across state lines.

Before you fire back and say who am I to talk: I wore my countries uniform on weekend ends for over 20 years and have 2 tours in the sandbox, before I said enough. I'll bet I have shot almost as many rounds as Mr, Petzel. OK almost half as many. The mightiest technologically advanced army in the world was fought back against with beat up old AK's and fertilizer bombs, (some outside help- 4 letters starts with an I) and a lot of smarts. Nuts, Zombie killers, kids pretending to be men, the emotionally crippled and amateurs aren't protecting our 2nd amendment freedom they are slowly eroding it. With great freedom goes great responsibility. As the gun owning community we need to come up with some sensible way to keep guns from the hands of the irresponsible or we (Not they) will pay that price. OK. I'm done. Bring on your minuses.

If I get dinged like some of the guys here, I will consider myself in good company.

+7 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Yeah, we remember Zumbo. I bet there are still a good many writers who believe exactly the same thing he did then, but of course now will never speak their minds after they saw what happened to Zumbo. Damn shame. A gun writer can freely say that they may not like pump-actions shotguns over auto-loaders, or lever-actions rifles in comparison to bolt-actions, but just dare say that they are not fond of the para-military stuff and they are dead meat and lose their jobs. Something smells here in my opinion when a gun writer of all people can't write what he wants about guns.

+6 Good Comment? | | Report
from chuckles wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

The department of Homeland Security is providing a lot of funding to LEO's to upgrade equipment etc. There is also a huge contingent of wannabes who cheerfully buy up the rest.
The Outdoor Channel is full of programs for people who feel their lives are in danger and want to know what to do if there convoy is attacked on the way to work.
None of that, however, justifies a lack of booth babes.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

I have been to these outdoor shows usually with my best buddy who is a retired state cop, and we never believed for a minute it was for the cops. Its fantasy toys for the zombie killers that watch too much TV. We have whole generations that couldn't find (the great state of) Montana on a map or know who Harry Truman or Teddy Roosevelt was (or what the constitution is either) but honestly believe we are about to be attacked by aliens and zombies from outer space. Seriously!

I am a firm believer in the 2nd amendment, (its there for a reason), but come on folks; some of these guys shouldn't be allowed to drive, let alone own a weapon, then we want to sell them tactical this or that. Thats what scares me. At some point all the responsible people will have all the guns they can use (I know I am pretty much there), and then the manufactures will have to market to the kids who never grew up and to the just plain irresponsible.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Chuckles; Can't agree more. I saw them Sat morning on the range when I was practicing for rifle season. Wearing camo T shirts to a range to shoot their AR at 25 yards. I want to shout: "Hey guys, the GUARD is hiring, they need guys to work a CLP (Combat Logistics Patrol" in the 'cracks-is-stan'. Get into the game.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

WAM, that reminds me of one of my dad's stellar moments of jocularity. We were sitting in Moose's Saloon one afternoon having pizza when he suddenly waxed philosophical, which was very unusual for Dad. "Son, you have lots of education, can you tell me something about Buddhism? Do you think there's any truth to that reincarnation stuff?" Startled, I replied, also somewhat philsophically, that I couldn't say one way or the other, religion is a life mystery of personal preference, goodness is good no matter what one worships, blah, blah, blah. When I finally quit yacking he thought for a minute and said, "Well, I hope it's not true. I haven't been such a good guy lately and I'm a bit concerned the Almighty will send me back as a seat cover for one of the local cop cruisers." As I recall, I blew suds out my nose!

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

hengst,
Just to clarify something, you made the statement that crimnals are no more dangerous than they were in the 1920's. You need to know that they have access to all of the new toys that are seen at the SHOT show most of the time before Law Enforcement gets them. With over 35 years service I saw the transition of the crimnals firepower during that period. That being said we weren't decked out with all of the things that you see at the shows, in fact our duty belts were pretty bare compared to most police departments. Running through the woods I wanted to be as "light" as I could be and at 17 pounds my duty belt was heavy enough with firearm, 2 magazines, handcuffs, pepper spray, and portable radio. If I was working in a big city enviorment I may want something else probably a taser. I carried an 870 in my patrol vehicle and usually a bolt action high powered rifle. But yes the crimnals now have access to all of the modern firearm and weapons that you see at the SHOT show and most of them have the weapons.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from jim in nc wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

DP: Of course the shooting industry is doing a great business. The NRA has scared the hell out of everyone ever since Obama was elected, and we have responded by buying more and more hardware, need it or not. I think the gun companies should be contributing big bucks to Obama; the NRA has turned him into the best friend Smith and Wesson et al. ever had.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

You guys remember Jim Zumbo? I do. Good writer. Wrote Outdoor Life's hunting column about ten years ago. Badmouthed black rifles on the internet. In a matter of days Zumbo was gone like Elvis's mom. The saddest thing about him was that he dinosaured himself to death. The shooting world had changed and he didn't find out until it was too late.

The Second Amendment says nothing about ducks or deer. Look, fellers. When even a company as mossbacked as Remington makes ARs and 1911s, the handwriting is not just on the wall, it's skywritten in mile high letters. We live in a world where all you need to start a lethal riot is a power outage, a hurricane, or for your local NBA team to win a championship game. We're the guys playing with the toys, shooting our ducks and deer.

Me, I don't want to be characterized by some lawyer as a vicious lunatic, so I defend my house with a Winchester Trapper in .30-30. But 170+ cops got killed on the job last year. If I was a cop I'd take every advantage.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from tom warner wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I certainly agree with all the commentary regarding paramilitary crap and view the militarization of the police with alarm. In my view our sorry government and homeland security jackasses are promoting all this because they view all of US as the future zombies that they will soon find some excuse for suppressing. The terrorists have really won inasmuch as they have succeeded in changing our whole culture and government since 9/11; just as they said they intended to do. And our citizenry and governmental fools fell for it. Scary and disgusting.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Let me shed a little light if I may. I spend quite a bit of time on a public range. Fisrt I'm not against black guns. I see people break out all of the newest Zombie killing equipment and all of the other newest toys and then on more than one occassion I have heard them say " I just can't wait till someone tries to break into my house I will light them up" and then they pat and stroke their new toys like I would my wife. I think this is what OH is talking about. I have firearms in my home for home defense and being highly trained a person wouldn't do well breaking into my house, but I pray to God that this is the last thing that happens and that I don't have to use deadly force because no one wins in a situation like that. People talk about taking a human life like it is nothing at all and an everyday thing and this is what upsets and bothers me. Our society dosen't value human life anymore and it is apparrent when you look at the evening news.

+4 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

"How shooting and suppressing the citizenry ties into Shooting, Hunting, and Outdoor Trade is more than I can comprehend, but there it is." Heh, heh, couldn't agree more!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Thank you Sarge01.
I had a big thing all typed up erlier but thought I should take a minute before runing off at the fingers. I think it is fair for the people to show thier equipment and firearms at the SHOT show as it is for the outdoor and shooting comunity, wich wether you like it or not hunters (and fisherman)are a part of. I don't think the AR deserves any bad mouthing from anyone either if you don't like it don't buy it. I now that seems to easy right?
This is to the BAN THE EVIL BLACK RIFLE crowd,
That sounds all fine and good to you until it's your old revolver or your deer rifle they come after aint it? The second amendment defends in writing my right as an American to own that rifle and your right to hunt with anything other than a bow and arrow. So quit bashing someone just because you don't like how many bullets their gun holds or what ever your problem is with them.
And yes SOME cops are stupid. Some doctors, Lawyers,dentists, and whatever other profesion you'd like to insert are to. But as a whole the LEO comunitie hasn't the slightest idea what goes on durning the average shift for the police their city, county, or state has on the pay role. And yes the criminals are alot more dangerous today than they were in the 20's. That is a prime example of a misinformed coment that someone somewhere will take as gospel truth. And some times when a police officer makes a traffic stop it's their last. Domestic violence calls and traffic stops are the two most dangerous things a police officer can become involved in, the more options to deal with it the beter things usualy turn out for the other person involved (ie the guy or gal other than the cop. And most of this crap that they wear on their body is so they don't have to shoot the idiot that won't take his hands out of his pockets when a gun is pointed at him and he is told to do so by Law Enforcement officers.
P.S
My gun belt is pretty bare to.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Proverbs wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Amen to the posts above noting the militarization of local police forces. I read in North American Hunter that many state university police forces are asking for (and getting) huge increases in budgets to buy swat-type gear, machine guns, military-style vehicles, etc.
This militarization of local police began in the aftermath of 9/11. Janet Napolitano/DHS has taken this to a whole new level...and maybe for a new meaning, one in conjunction with the DHS taking bids in every state for temporary detention centers. This should be raising eyebrows across mainstream America, but I don't see that happening. In the meantime, I believe the militarization of our poice, in both equipment and training, is what has led to the more-frequent use of deadly force and especially of Tasers, which are alleged to have caused about 500 deaths in the past 10 years. One of my points is that some local LEOs are becoming less effective at crime prevention but are earning a negative reputation as a natural side-affect of their militarization. We are losing freedoms every day while our government takes on more power. Again, a lot of this began after 9/11. It looks like the terrorists have partly succeeded in making our society fearful, and we are worse off for that.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from Sarge01 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Back to what OH had to say about seeing other people die. I have had to alot of years ago. I trained to kill people for 35 years. Thank God I never had to take a life, but I was prepared to if I had to. This is just my opinion and I know I will get jumped on and the minus piled on but I think that the increased violence in our country today is because of the violent TV shows and the extreme violent video games that children play about killing people. It seems like all of our video games are about killing people and they are fed a steady diet about this. When I grew up the worst killing I ever saw was when the Lone Ranger shot a bad guy and then it wasn't as graphic as it is now. I may be old fashioned and way out of touch but I have done a lot of thinking and this is my take on the matter.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from hengst wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Absolutely right again Dave, the militarization of the "American" police is a fact. Ohh but the criminals are so dangerous you say? Criminals are no more dangerous now than the 1920's.
Meopta (Czeck Rep. company) is a great company. During the very late days of the iron curtain many East German hunters used meopta on top of fine rifles from Suhl. They made good cameras also.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

You know the economy is bad if Hooters has better, ugh, babes than the gun industry.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from JakeT_little.Racks wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

This guy knows whats up. We love guns...but we loves booth babes more

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Boy, it's a relief to know I'm not a voice crying in the wilderness. However, seems like every time I level my sights on zombie-killer fever I take a broadside of minuses (like that matters to me ... pffft). Again, I am relieved to find I'm in good company.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Everytime I see local sheriffs decked out in more gear than Seal Team 6 on Operation Geronimo, I think to myself, "You just gotta wonder". The one today had been sitting on his arse in Starbucks so long that his cruiser was covered in as much snow as my truck was that had been sitting across the street for two hours... Maybe all the tactical gear weighted his non-tactical ass down so much that it was too much to waddle out to fight crime for truth, justice, and the American way!

Y'all reckon there is a Tactical Merit Badge these days?

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from chasclifton wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

I am just back from SHOT Show too, and the "tactical" law-enforcement emphasis turned me off too.. Keep going on this topic.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from nunyabinis wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

"The tactics the SWAT team was using were also becoming more like the military," Bill laments. "We even got a military Humvee. We were now wearing BDUs and carrying fully automatic machine guns and wearing the same body armor as soldiers were in Iraq. All of our 870 Remington shotguns were removed from the patrol cars and replaced with full-automatic H&K-made G36 machine guns — to the protest of all the patrol officers, mind you. If anyone spoke out they were `dealt with.' In the course of 3 years they went through over 50 patrol officers. And this is a department with only about 47 officers total."

The process Bill describes is a peculiar type of alembic, distilling the worst elements from a recruiting pool to serve in local police forces. Rather than retaining people of character and principle, the process selects for the officious, the self-satisfied, the opportunistic, and especially for those fixated on power.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w49.html

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

OHH
Now that's funny!

I am happy for the local constabulary to sit on their duffs. that way they are not bothering citizens.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

OHH COULDN'T MAKE THAT ONE UP!

WAM, I'LL SECOND DAT!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from iron giant wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

To all the Black Rifle haters. You do realize that your revered bolt actions began as military weapons? Everybody loves a Mauser 98 action. They're arguably the strongest most reliable actions around. And the Mauser 98 action came from, that's right, the Mauser 98. The rifle that with minor modifications served in both World Wars and was the standard service rifle of myriad nations for decades. I can just see the guys hunting with an old winchester or muzzleloader picking on the poor guy who started hunting with a bolt action. It is a natural progression for military arms to slowly become sporting arms. You do realize that the firearm itself is a military invention and was later adopted for hunting? If you don't like Black rifles, fine, but don't go talking trash about them for no reason.

Also, to anyone so unthinking to suggest tactical weapons should be banned, I challenge you to read up on why the Second Ammendment exists. A few on hear are on the right track saying that it isn't about hunting deer. But it is also about more then keeping crooks out of your house in the middle of the night. The original intent was to have a populous that was armed like a military. Look up the definition of militia. Militia as used in the Second Ammendment can pretty much be defined as every able bodied man. Thus every able bodeid man should be armed as a soldier. This was because you cannot take the freedoms of a heavily armed people. Thomas Jeferson said that the Tree of Liberty must often be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots. (Slight paraphrase, as I can't remeber the exact wording). The founding fathers saw a heavily armed society as neccesary to the maintenance of freedom. The Pennsylvania Constitution in its version of the Bill of Rights even grants its citizens to rebel against their government and establish a new one if the old becomes tyrannical. Not that any such right is created on paper in a Constitution it is a pre-existing eternal right. Our founders meant for the people to be so heavily armed that a tyrannicla government could never develop. So to everyone even open to considering the virtue of banning tactical weapons, realize that the day Americans have are left with only sporting arms would be almost as equally black as the day they have none. To maintain our freedom we must first and foremost, among many other things, stand together against any notion or attmept to ban even some of our weapons.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from iron giant wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Oh and the militarization of our police departments is certainly a most troubling trend. Our Republic did not maintain even a standing army until about a century ago, and one of the main threads of the ideology of the American Revolution was that maintaining a standing army in time of peace was a death sentence to freedom. Because of the way the world has changed since the late 1700's of course we must maintain a strong military. But I wonder if the same principle might be applied to law enforcement. I believe that law enforcement agencies should be relatively weak. If everyone in society were well armed there would be much less need for para military police units.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Carney wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Dave Petzal, my humble opinion buddy is that you should get married. And go to church. But maybe not in that order.

WAM = could be that the LEO in the exoskeleton drinking coffee all day is just playing it safe. You will remember the 4 Lakewood Officers who were gunned down on a Sunday morning in a coffee shop! Starbucks maybe isn't the safest place for lawmen.

Rockysquirrel = thanks for your service. Making "responsible people" is the work primarily of parents and family, then the larger community. With the continual breakdown of family and home, particularly from the 60's through the 90's, there is little left of a stable, moral and responsible society in the 21st Century. John Adams gave this warning in the late 18th Century: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

As for AR's, I'm not too interested. But if I ever get the itch it will be scratched with a rifle chambered for 50 Beowolf!

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Apologies for the rant. Responsible citizenship and responsible gun ownership is something I get worked up about. As for the all the guys who can quote, Jefferson and Adams and the second amendment. I am humbled to be the the presence of true patriots; no matter where you fall on this issue. For the record I have nothing against AR and AR shooters. If your passion is AR target shooting/competition (and you know what you are doing) Enjoy, But please suffer no illusions. Your AR is no more a defense against a government gone bad than my deer rifle. An oppressive military can now see through walls and accurately shoot you from farther away then you can see. Freedoms best defense is the 16 year old kid, who plays little league or Friday night football and does his/her homework and goes fishing/hunting with their Dad/Mom. Democracies best defense is building character in the next generation. I could quote Reagan about freedom not being more than one generation from extinction, but I have blogged way too much for one day. Although I find that the Government now claims the right to indefinitely suspend habeas corpus and execute a US citizen it perceives to be a danger highly disturbing.

Also for the record Jim Zumbo, is still very much writing outdoor articles. He just did a nice article for BUGLE, the RMEF publication. November -December 2011: "Outlaws to Outstanding, A guide to Outfitters" According to the byline he has been writing for the BUGLE for the last 25 years.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Well, forgive me mdezort for not being a sheep and having a brain of my own. I have news for you, the "liberals" I know think I'm a gray-haired old "conservative" because I own a gun and kill animals/birds. "Why, he MUST be a redneck." I'm proud that I don't fit ANY mold. Shows that I have a better chance of having my head out of the poop shoot.

It's a damned shame these wannabee home defense killers haven't had to hold loved ones in their arms and watch the life run out of them. I have had too much of that and I wouldn't wish it on the parent/spouse/sibling of even the worst kind of person. Yes, I could probably use lethal force to protect myself against a zombiefied home invader but I can tell you, after what I have been through, I wouldn't be in any big hurry to do so, even at my own peril. And it would wreck me if I had to do it. Most of the idiots that played with that stupid zombie killer crap at SHOT have NO idea what they are playing with, and I'm NOT talking about the guns either.

The exponentially increasing numbers of people who buy these insanity toys aren't thinking paper targets or clays, they're fantasizing about death and destruction of people. THAT is what disturbs the majority of the folks who have posted on this thread. Because we are disturbed about it doesn't mean we're throwing in with the antis. And if we eventually advocate acting on our feelings, it won't be without honest, thoughtful, concensus. And, yes, reluctance.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

RockySquirrel;

Good to find out that Zumbo is still writing. I always thought he got a raw deal.

However, this is a free country. If Zumbo dislikes black rifles, all good. But if you do like them, you may not want to spend money on a magazine to read the gun advice of a guy who doesn't address your questions.

One unexpectedly good thing about black rifles is that since AR-15 sized uppers can only hold a round like the 6.8 SPC, deer hunters have returned to the .250 Savage level of power that we never should have left in the first place. Unless you like 400 yard shots over very windy terrain, shooting deer with a .300 Magnum is playing rifleman.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from oldmotorcop wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Last week I bought a Shotgun News for the first time in years and found that it was 99% tactical stuff, both shotguns and rifles.
I too wonder what's going on with the shooting and suppressing people business.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Does this tactical stuff really sell? Law Enforcement can't have the funds to support all these tactical manufacturers? There's the fuzzy cutting edge of the New Order somewhere? Set me straight on this, Guys!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from PbHead wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

In these hard times maybe the Booth Babes have staked out the casinos in search of easier prey. Hang in there Dave, the future looks promising.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from CL3 wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Good post, Petzal.

I think chuckles' comment above sums it up for me as well. Pump the brakes, boys!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Oryx wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Oh c'mon Mtnhunter...Starbucks and tactical are made for each other. Plus, Magpul makes a iPhone case you know.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from firedog11 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

My local LEOs have an Armored car. We have LEOs in major cities and smaller carrying submachine guns in subways and malls. I don't expect pin point shooting when something goes wrong. I expect mass collateral damage. Hell NY city claims they can down a small plane. The swat teams in Va and Md have made raids on wrong addresses and killed several people. The amount of money handed out by Federal agencies such as USDA and FEMA in the name of DHS is astounding. Every Fed agency has a swat team. I don't believe we are being invaded by zombies or aliens unless you are referring to people like pelosi and reid. But I do worry when people who supposedly believe in the Bill of Rights fall into the trap of putting down other peoples choice of a firearm as wrong just because you don't like them or they don't fit your idea of hunting rifle. Guys with bows and arrows probably said the same thing about the first guy to hunt with a matchlock.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from DSMbirddog wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Thank you WAM. You hit it right on the head.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ableskeever wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

To boost sales to the general public, a remake of Red Dawn is in order.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Dar is a reason I don't watch the show "COPS". Alaska State Troopers, now that's Law Enforcement at its finest!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom-Tom wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

What disturbes me more than the lack of booth babes is the growing trend promoting the fear that we are in constant danger from home invasion, street gangs, drug-crazed psychos and terrorist attack. Truth be known, fear sells, whatever the product. Remember fallout shelters...swine flu? As for Cop World, let them have their own show and let SHOT return to it's original mission and purpose, the active promotion of shooting, hunting and the outdoor trade.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from dleurquin wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Affordable new guns. Yes!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Good work Crusty!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

No minus from me Rocky I feel the same way.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Rocky, you invaded the Inner Sanctum; beat the crap out of the sacred AR, black rifle cow. Now the Black rifle Gun Nazis will come out of the woodwork in force singing 2A rights.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jim in Mo wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

focusfront,
Yep, the gun industry ditched Zumbo like a bad fitting pair of shoes.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

The way the wackos have executed attacks on LEOs in the NW, I won't sit in a coffee shop or cafe where a bunch of cops are hanging out. Who knows when they might be a target?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ITHACASXS wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Purveyors of Pessimism? Great line. Right up there with ''Nattering Nabobs of Negativity''. For $64,000,(not really, I'm Ithacasxs not Purdysxs) who remembers that line and its author?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Tom-Tom wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

The quote is from the late William Safire.

And to RockySquirrel, thank you for clearly expressing what many may be thinking. I almost typed the phrase "should be thinking" but this to each their own thoughts.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Sorry, I should have put Dad's moment of jocularity in its proper context. At the time, every member of our local police force could easily have met the minimum weight requirements for a sumo wrestling tournament.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quahog wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Bit off-topic, but anyone have anything to say about the "new" Winchester Model 71 ?

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Looks every bit as good a gun as the old ones. Too bad they (Thompson?) are only putting a handful of them on the market (all had to be ordered at SHOT show). That was one of the FINEST weapons manufactured by Winchester and probably the only saddle gun I would ever have wanted. That was an elk-killing son of a gun (pardon the pun). Exquisite crafstmanship and utility is only available in limited quantities at SHOT show while zombie guns are being mass-marketed there? Sad commentary on where things are headed.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Ithaca, I am old enough that I should have remembered that quote, but sadly that particular member of the league of "crooks" self-destructed while I was overseas in the military. The "news" that made it through to us troops via the "Stars and Stripes" newspaper or Armed Forces Radio Network was, shall we say ... somewhat filtered. For our own good of course.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Quahog wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Ontario Honker :
You're saying that Thompson is manufacturing the Winchester 71 ? Right heah in NH ? Patent expiration ? Totally agree with your comments relative to where we're headed.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from davidpetzal wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

To Tom-Tom: Safire wrote it, I believe, but Spiro Agnew made it popular. Whenever I think we've hit the bottom of the barrel politically, I think of Spiro Agnew and realize that we have a way to go.

To Quahog: Being a fan of the 71, I took a close look at the SHOT Show samples, and as nearly as I can tell they are perfect duplicates of the originals, even down to the crummy checkering on the Deluxe version. They're not nearly as slick because they haven't been cycling for 50 years, but they're nice guns indeed. The price is in the $1400-$1600 range, which is a lot less than you'd pay for an original in new condition.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from jbird wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Very enjoyable thread you've created Mr. Petzal.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I catch a show now and then on one of the Sportsmen Channel.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from john c. wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

A couple of years ago my wife came home and laughingly said: "This guy I work with wants to know if you can recommend a gun for his zombie apocalypse kit?" At the time I ignored the guy thinking he was some sort of lone goofball, but now I'm beginning to think there are actually a significant number of people out there preparing to do battle with swarms of walking dead.

At the end of the day I don't know which is worse. The fact that there are people immature and naive enough to take such nonsense seriously. Or that their are companies out there willing to cater to these people's immaturity (can anyone say anti-zombie ammo). I mean we are talking about guns and ammunition after all. And while we all know guns don't kill people; stupid people with guns can certainly kill people.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from mdezort wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Well, look at all the sanctimonious "traditionalists" posting their disgust with the black gun crowd. Last time I checked, we were all on the same side against those who have been trying to take away our guns rights. SO WHAT if the new generation doesn't like to shoot the way you did!!! It does my heart good to go to the range and see a multitude of youth and women learning to shoot. Folks, this is what we fought for, for years. Face it, those of us near urban areas don't have many opportunities to hunt like we did when we grew up in rural areas. Allow us the fun shooting paper and clays without judging us. Frankly, you sound like a bunch of left coast liberals bemoaning the rise of gun use.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I forgot to add that no one will get a minus from me for simply disagreeing. I don't like to click on that button at all. If I like it I'll plus it but if I don't I usualy just click myself over to something else.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Sarge01,
Someone who just can't wait to "light someone up" has obviously never taken a life, never seen the life go out of somone's eyes, or is just a plain old garden variety idiot.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

People that can't wait to shoot someone are stupid. If someone is breaking into my house they will meet someone with a gun and the training to use it. I hope to god and all that is is good in this world that I never have to use my self defense guns on anything but paper targets and wild game (AR for yotes and hogs, shotgun for pretty much the same). Some of the people that are chomping at the bit so to speek, are just as stated above idiots.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

Conservative Women have to work this year, they can only find Liberal Women

Conservative women vs. Liberal women

Turn up the volume!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIgAKxASPuw&list=LLrPfxxdjnh2R25U9Fny2M4Q...

____________________________________________________

Bonus points!

"Gun Nuts and Skirts"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEIKG1ZkaOI&list=LLrPfxxdjnh2R25U9Fny2M4Q...

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from dovebuster wrote 2 years 13 weeks ago

MtnHunter, That's funny!
Dave, Due to the economey, booth babes are to costly to transport with all the gear ie make-up,luggage and the need of body guards to protect them from shotshow isle wandering bearded fellows. Oh yea the luggaage is not for clothing just all the other crap women carry that is of no use. That the answer I get from my wife when we travel. I ask what's in this suit case? answer; nothing really just stuff.
On another not I request a comparison from the current semi-auto hunting rifles on the market but please no black tactical stuff. Real hunting rifles (Browning, Benelli, Merkel. Thanks

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from walt in wi wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

It is unfortunate that "tactical" is what sells products to the video-game generation. I second what RockyS said about not growing up and being irresponsible.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

The American Gun nut comunity is now officaly infected.
A sad day indeed

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from focusfront wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

You guys remember Jim Zumbo? I do. Good writer. Wrote Outdoor Life's hunting column about ten years ago. Badmouthed black rifles on the internet. In a matter of days Zumbo was gone like Elvis's mom. The saddest thing about him was that he dinosaured himself to death. The shooting world had changed and he didn't find out until it was too late.

The Second Amendment says nothing about ducks or deer. Look, fellers. When even a company as mossbacked as Remington makes ARs and 1911s, the handwriting is not just on the wall, it's skywritten in mile high letters. We live in a world where all you need to start a lethal riot is a power outage, a hurricane, or for your local NBA team to win a championship game. We're the guys playing with the toys, shooting our ducks and deer.

Me, I don't want to be characterized by some lawyer as a vicious lunatic, so I defend my house with a Winchester Trapper in .30-30. But 170+ cops got killed on the job last year. If I was a cop I'd take every advantage.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Jere Smith wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Zumbo had a program on The outdoor channel last year. Have not seen any so far this year. But he seems to have landed on his feet!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Mark-1 wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

John C, It must be the Mayan 2012 Thing. Not sure if the zombie infestation is solo or alien inspired.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from mdezort wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Petzal, take your meds man. You sound crankier than usual, and that's saying something.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from ITHACASXS wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Ontario Honker, I'm not what anyone would call a ''Black gun'' guy, I'm not even a rifleman in the true sense of the word, only because all of my hunting and most of my shooting is done with a shotgun. However, I would own one if given the chance, though I think shooting a M1 garand might be more fun, Who knows? As far as it being a damned shame ''these people'' you speak of not given the chance to watch another human die is something I do disagree with. A lot of people dream of fighting and shooting and all that. And there is a bit too much bravado slung around at times. So what? Let it go in one ear and out the other if it annoys you. Its talk, just talk. Most of the griping I hear is from the anti-AR bunch. Yeah, I wish more shooters hunted too, but as long as they support the whole show, I'm all for them busting a few extra caps at goofy looking targets. Remember,from the basement Daisy BB gun shooter to the .50 cal Barrett folks, the anti gun people hate us all.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Big Country wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I'm confused as to how it is a "Damn Shame" that that someone has not had the misfortune to watch a loved one die? And what makes someone a "home defense killer"? Am I a "home defense killer" because I keep a pistole close by in case I need it to defend myself and my loved ones? Because if it comes down to I have no problem shooting some low life that threatens my familys saftey. I have actuale training not just range practice so am I now off the poopoo list? I don't mind people disagreeing and I'm sorry if I'm coming accross as rude but I don't understand these comments at all.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I was off this topic. Usually I say my peace, (and this time i said far more of my peace then usual) and move on and let others say theirs.

But I gotta tell say; Sarge and WA Mtnhunter; your last comments was both some serious sage wisdom. Thats something that all of us should read and read again.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from coachsjike wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

you would think in an area like las vegas there would not be a shortage of booth babes. guess i am the one who is dumbfounded.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Subzero wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

In my opinion anyone with a lick of common sense knows firearms demand a great deal of respect. I also believe anyone with a shred of humanity feels an awful sense of tragedy when some psychopathic scumbag kills innocent people. My concern is the thought that banning one particular type of rifle or handgun will stop these monsters. My 1 ton ford truck could plow through a crowd of people faster than a black rifle wielding mad man. I also believe these video games and television shows that cheapen human life bring down society as a whole, but that free speech thing gets tricky. Also the comment earlier about free speech and the press protecting people from the government? Really? Look how well it worked for all the peaceful students in tienamen square in china. Every free country in the world got to watch tanks roll over these kids. China sure has improved their human rights since then, huh?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from RockySquirrel wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

Subzero; Yes Sir and you and your Ford Pickup is (state) licensed.

No one, not even the oldest crankiest old geezer, among us in any of these blogs has said, "Take their guns away" No one in any of these blogs I have read has said we want to restrict firearms from any responsible gun owner. We may not like your choice but no one said take your choice away. My guess is as you have thought this through YOU AND 99.99% of the guys on the blog are not the loose cannons we are talking about. At the risk of losing this argument once again, and i thought it was over:

If you read carefully the point people are trying to make here is there is a thin group of whack-o's who have linked their right to build a bazooka in their basement and store grenades in their garage to my right to own a deer rifle. They have linked the alcoholic right to keep a 9mm in his closet or some guy who watches too much TV with no training or insight beyond some stupid detective show to my right to target shoot my 1911. They are not the same, no matter how many people on both sites of the media make a pretty good living trying to scare the public into linking them up. One of the best things that happened to gun owners is removal of guns from women abusers (yes some lawyers abused that). Fewer drunks murdering their women with guns means fewer negative headlines and less weasels trying to pass silly guns laws when they don't enforce the ones they have, Laws (OK some laws) are moved by the American public opinion and that is moved by headlines. For example: Whats wrong with requiring all firearms be insured? What straw man buyer would buy a gun he has to pay insurance on it forever. Your pickups insured. Whats wrong with requiring all pistols owners take a course before purchase? You have to take one to get a drivers license or a hunting license, Why not present proof to buy a handgun or any gun? Some states I lived in require that now. Or no purchase of a handgun less than 5inch barrel with out a state issued carry permit? How about no carry permit with out a drug test? You have to get one to drive a school bus or a semi. Why not to carry a gun? How about you lose your carry permit for a year with a DUI? How about require a UL approved gun safe for greater than 3 firearms in a home? Or a special STATE ISSUED license to buy and own a AR or black rifle? Agree or not, I'll bet most of us could come up with a bunch more smart ways to keep guns away from people who shouldn't have them. When we do that we ARE PROTECTING OURSELVES from the idiots who want to take them away, The issue is not polarizing, there is plenty of middle ground for good ideas to help ourselves.

Most of these things responsible gun owners are doing now and as I said some states are already requiring them. By keeping firearms out of the hands of the irresponsible, the emotionally challenged, the drug abuser, the wife beater we are keeping gun violence out of the news and the idiots who make a pretty good living on the nightly news gearing up the public. And yes; I have a carry permit, and yes I carry occasionally and that was one of the best laws ever passed too, it proves that nearly all gun owners are a responsible, civic minded, stable, careful Americans and not the loonies we get painted as. Now I'm done.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from iron giant wrote 2 years 11 weeks ago

I get what you guys are saying about the nutcases that are just waiting to get to shoot somebody with their gun. I completely agree that that sort of thinking is psychotic, not to mention wrong. But seriously read up on the purpose of the second ammendment. It was to ensure that a Tyranny could not be established. There may be a few common sense things that could be done to help prevent total nutcase from getting there hands on weapons, but any such measures need to be held to the highest scrutiny imaginable. We need to be sure that any such measure does not infringe on gun rights, that its abuse in the future could not infringe on gun rights, and that it does not set a precedent for future legisaltion that will infringe on gun rights. Part of such scrutiny is not allowing any laws that ban or regualte "assuat weapons" (black rifles, tactical guns, and such). The fact is that in a free society there will always be some measure of risk. We could not pass legislation that would guarantee keeeping guns out of the hands of nuts and bad guys without harming the rights of law abiding citizens. In order to allow citizens to exercise their rights with no government molestation there will be enough leeway in the system for some people who shouldn't have guns to get them. I for one would rather have the problem in society of the one in millions crazy gunman then an overreaching, tyrannical government.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from JackB wrote 2 years 10 weeks ago

I have to admit, I am tired of having "tacticool" guns everywhere. Far too many of those who buy/own them are irresponsible- they think they're commandos just because they own an AR of kind or another.

On a semi-related note, as some have said here, kids are fed a diet of mayhem and violence in games and television. Its something I am tired of. I grew up watching re-runs of old classics- Westerns, Dragnet, Hawaii Five-O and more. I can't stomach watching the majority of crime dramas these days. An Example- the NEW "Hawaii Five-O" is typically full of a 3 to 4 gunfights, the new Kono beating someone up at least once, and prisoners/suspects being tortured for information. Nothing like the original, and total Garbage.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from SL wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

I make no bones about it. I don't like opening a hunting magazine and have it shoved down my throat that an AR15 with bayonet mounts, flashlight attachments and God know what else is needed to hunt deer, coyotes, woodchuck, etc.. All it is, is a HUGE sales pitch to those gullible enough to believe it. And apparently there are plenty of these gullible people out there right now. I open up a hunting magazine these days, and it looks more like "Soldier of Fortune" magazine than it does a hunting magazine.

Looks like some here are wondering why police departments are arming themselves with all this military type equipment? Well, if any idiot off the street can buy up this stuff these days, why wouldn't the police want to be at least equally armed??? This nonsense won't stop it seems. Maybe if fewer people off the street were allowed to buy all these lethal toys, then the police wouldn't feel the need to?? Some posters here have questioned the sanity and responsibility of some of these military styled weapon purchasers. Well, just you wait until one of these clowns decides to wreck some real havoc with one of these toys. And it's only a matter of time until it does happen. All gun owners will pay the price then.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ontario Honker ... wrote 2 years 12 weeks ago

Rocky, no minuses from this vet and former cop. For a long time I've been singing that same "it's up to us gunowners to right the ship." And long before I moved to Canada. You hit it on the head! I never have been a firm advocate for 250 year old definitions of "militia" no more than I am with 250 year old gun technology. Our militia is the National Guard. Obviously our "militia" wouldn't be much good if the militiamen showed up to meet a threat to national security with a thousand different kinds of "home defense" armament from squirrel guns to antique collectibles. Our "militia" is useless unless it has the training and experise to use gernade launchers and jet fighters but I for one don't want those weapons kept at "home" in their garages or basements!

What I find scary is the paramilitary closet anarchists who think that having guns at home is what keeps our governments honest (yes, a very few folks hold to that notion up here too). Our votes and our free press keep our governments honest. Always have and always will. Guns in the home has NEVER been part of the recipe.

-1 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment

bmxbiz-fs