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Discussion Topic: Elderly Women Charged With Beating Fawn To Death

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July 09, 2009

Discussion Topic: Elderly Women Charged With Beating Fawn To Death

By Dave Hurteau

On the list of Most Harmless People, little old ladies who spend their days tending the rose bushes and petunias usually rank pretty high. But not in the case of 75-year-old Dorothy Richardson, especially not from the perspective of the baby deer she caught bedded in her greenery.

From Cleveland’s The Plain Dealer:

Dorothy Richardson, 75, of Waynoka Road, was charged with cruelty to animals after three neighbors told police that she beat a baby deer to death with a shovel. . . because it was sitting in her flower bed . . . .

The city’s cruelty charge is a first-degree misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in jail and a $1,000 fine.

What do you think she should get, if anything? (See our Whitetail365 blog for more.)

 

Comments (93)

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from trophyslayer wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Without a doubt she should pay the maximum fine. I don't know if I'd throw an old lady in jail but something has to be done because beating a fawn to death ranks on my list as one of the lowliest things a person could do. Scaring off deer with a broomstick is one thing but killing a fawn with a shovel is just plain ridiculous.

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from hunt_fish_sleep wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

To be honest with you, I think that would be an absolutely hilarious scene from a third person point of view. Little old lady starts feebly swinging a shovel, neighbor looks around the fence and says "hey stop" but little old lady, not wearing her hearing aid, keeps whacking unphased.

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from Koldkut wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Only a $1000 fine? She should be treated like a poacher IMO.

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from buckeye wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I would not throw her in jail due to her age, but she should have to pay the full fine.

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from Quiet Loner wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

In the Beach Boy's words, "go granny, go granny, go granny, go.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I think she should get a commendation and a blue ribbon from the 4H club and the American Horticultural Society for innovative use of nonchemical pest control.

"Animal abuse" is one of the stupidist leftwingnut PC freakshow arenas of intrusive big nanny state power expansion of the last couple decades. I won't be surprised when I hear about some poor damned yankee charged with animal cruelty for boiling a lobster, or some louisianan for eating a raw oyster with some kind of cocktail sauce.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

This falls under the description of animal cruelty and unless the woman has some medical/mental issues that we are unaware of, she should be prosecuted just as anyone else would be.

After all, justice is supposed to be blind in this country.

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from MB915 wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike Diehl, even if you would not consider this animal abuse, it is still poaching and waste of a game animal. She should be charged as a poacher and be fined according to whatever Ohio charges people who poach out of season and with wasting a game animal.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

No, it's not poaching. It may be an "illegal take" in the technical sense but it ain't remotely even close to the sort of person who jacks a deer at night or takes a trophy animal, lops off the antlers, and leaves the carcass to rot.

Not every deer is a sacred sporting resource. Where that old lady lives, and in many eastern and northern urban areas, deer are just an agricultural nuisance. A person shouldn't need a license to get a pest from her garden, and she shouldn't have to hire an expensive contractor to remove it.

Thirty years ago 99% of the sporting community would have shrugged and moved on already. This has nothing to do with unreasonable conduct on the old lady's part, and everything to do with a culture in which people feel entitled to be all uppity, judgmental, and outraged over absolutely trivial and completely unimportant stuff. That and the expansion of bureaucracy into every aspect of life, so that every public act from blowing your nose to running your lawn mower has to have some damned regulation governing how you must do it and why you're not qualified to do it for yourself and why you need a license and a professional contractor to do the job for you and why some damned bureaucrat should have coin on his palm to let you do it.

America is turning into a nation of perpetually outraged nanny state wimps.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Anyone bludgenoning a baby fawn to death with a showel to protect some damn garden flower should be locked in a mental institution if u ask me.. if its somewhere u dont want it to be then just pick it up and move it somewhere else.. they arenth dangerous at all to anyone able to walk upright.. whats next? bludgeoning a baby that crawls into your driveway??
CLEAR case of animal cruelty..
lock the old biddy up!!!!!

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Anybody who'd charge her for it should be locked up in a mental institution if you ask me. Ultimately I'd look at her on one side as a neighbor who's a big threat to pests in her garden. Anyone who'd rat her out has the heart of an East German secret police informant. Anyone who'd charge her with a crime over it has the IQ of a quahog.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"bludgeoning a baby that crawls into your driveway??"

That's the problem with nanny state big gov people. No sense of proportionality or scale. You're making a moral equivalence between offing a garden pest and a human being. That simply affirms in my view that the people outraged over this have the intelligence of a bivalve.

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Diehl, you are buy far a without a shadow of a doudt a very disturbed person if you think this lady did the right thing. It also makes me cringe that what ever staet you live in allows a person so mest up in the head as you to carry a gun. Get some help man.

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Would everyone's reaction be the same if it were a raccoon in her garden? A mole? A snake? Fawns are cute and all. I get it; save your comments, but this is the type of Disney anthropomorphism that we rant about every day on this site. Mike Diehl, as usual, has a good point. A cute, cuddly animal, in the wrong place, is a pest. How does the fact of using a shovel make it cruelty? A shovel is pretty quick if wielded correctly. It's a graphic image, but is that really what's bothering everyone, form over substance? How about a .30-06 at point blank range? Any discussion of hunting ethics in this situation is misplaced because this lady was not hunting, either for food or for sport. It's not what I would do, but any anti-hunter would make the same argument concerning what I plan to do on opening day.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

We've crossed paths before, IDdork. In my view your willingness to intrude into every person's back yard is sort of at odds with your paranoia over the Federal government's management of Federal land. And as noted, I think anyone who'd make a moral equivalence between animals and people is the one who truly deserves to have their head examined. Lots of people, most of em conservatives, are glad to be my neighbor and to hunt with me. And no, that's not how I'd kill a vertebrate urban pest, if I had a problem with one.

So although I think you're two cards shy of a full deck, I'll pretend for a moment that you're capable of raional thought and ask you what you expected a 76 year old lady to do?

Was she supposed to shell out money for a license or a contractor to remove the deer? Contrary to some other poster's opinion, a fawn isn't "harmless" because if she'd tried to move it, there might be a confrontation between the old lady and the fawn's doe. That's assuming the old lady COULD actually move it. And where would she move it? Put it out by the mailbox? Put it in her car and drive it somewhere?

If she'd decided she'd rather shoot it, could you have guaranteed she'd not be charged under a local firearms discharge ordnance?

Or is it really your contention that deer in eastern urban areas are such a critical resource that every one of 'em needs to be protected, regardless of the damage they do to peoples' gardens? Bear in mind, in some towns it's almost as easy to find a deer as it is to find a pigeon.

I don't think you've thought this out very much. All I can say is that I don't have a problem with her actions. I don't think this makes her a psycho, a closet serial killer, or a poacher. I do think that all the people outraged over this are probably nosy busybodies who might not be good neighbors and really ought to get a life and a clue both at once.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Thanks armchair OU. I suspect that liberal wussies and Big Gov't Nanny State intrusive busybodies are gonna continue to express their outrage by providing negative feedback. They are, of course, playing PETA's and HSUS "every animal is just like a person" card and ultimately the sportsmen going after her are just playing into the hands of anti-hunters who'd argue any form of deer death other than at the hands of wolves is "animal cruelty."

I'd take this old lady for a nieghbor any day over any of the self-righteous prigs hammering at her.

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from vtbluegrass wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

A deer living amongst the suburbs or over-populations on farms have moved into the gray area between sporting game and nuisance pest. If you happened to take one out before it gets to maturity and has the chance to procreate you have done a service to an area that is overpopulated. A little old lady with a shovel takes out one fawn; do you have any idea how many fawns get taken out by bush-hogs, hay rakes, and balers every year?
Now I would say this is very different than the case reported on FS a few weeks ago about teens kicking a fawn to death. This woman motivation appears to be removing a perceived pest from her garden. A group of teenagers kicking a fawn to death would seem to be motivated by malice and something just off in the head.

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from beanap wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

damn shes about as bad a as a poacher

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from FloridaHunter1226 wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I would not expect to see her in jail... I just don't think she could handle it. But I have to say this, at that age, their life has a system and also they put an effort into something and don't want to see their effort gone to waste. I am not saying what she did is right, but people at that age tend to blow up over the smallest things. I would suggest some anger management with whatever she is fined with.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Now that you mention age you bring up an interesting point. At 75 y.o. and given that she actually has an interest in gardening, she is of an age set of Americans for whom this sort of thing would not have cause a kerfuffle. She was likely raised to be independent enough to solve her own problems, especially when they are as relatively minor in the Grand Scheme of Things as removing a pest. It's only more recent generations that have been trained that every act must be regulated and scrutinized. It's like there's a bunch of saggy old Code Pink types seeking to infiltrate every facet of conduct and public discourse.

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from Koldkut wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I can already see the bad blood running down this site from this one. I have my feelings on this. Facts are that she beat a fawn with a shovel and killed it. If we were to play a little game and fill in the blank, everyone will have some on the list that they will agree with that there is no crime commited in killing said creature. "She beat a ____ with a shovel and killed it" A. Cricket B. Mouse C. Rabbit D. Skunk E. Garden Snake F. Deer Fawn G. Baby Kitten H. Chihuahua I. The neighbors 3 year old son. Where does the deer rate? If you eat meat, there are already thousands of animals being killed on your behalf because we choose it that way. Others we choose not to kill and it makes it a crime, and then there are others that get killed who don't get afforded the same protections that the choicest and cutest animals get. Kill the mouse, spare the owl. Kill both and see which one results in some strife and a ticket/fine.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

The law is the law. We make think this particular law is stupid, but that doesn't mean people can ignore it.

Don't like the laws, try to change 'em.

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from Pagan_Hunter wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike Diehl, I usually enjoy your posts, but I think this time you are painting a little too widely with your "Liberal nanny state" brush.

I think there are two issues here, legality and morality.

legality,
last I checked, poaching was defined as illegally killing an animal, not just illegally killing an animal for sporting purposes. It was out of season, AND she didn't have a license, sorry folks, that's poaching.

If I used my bow to shoot a 12 point buck out of season because it was bedding in suburban flower garden, would you stand up so strongly and say I wasn't poaching? I was just trying to protect my flowers!

She probably isn't guilty of animal abuse, I doubt there was any Mike Vick style sadistic intent involved.

Morality,
When we take an animal while hunting, we do it to feed our families. The loss in justified because it is necessary for our families to live. The same is true when we harvest lettuce for a salad or pull a trout out of the river to grill.

This is a very different thing, that rose garden is nowhere near necessary for her to live. She wants it. Just like that fawn wants a sheltered place to take a nap. Her want is no important than the fawns, and while she would be justified in shoo-ing it away or putting up a fence, she is by no means justified in slowly bludgeoning it to death.

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from Bob81 wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Pagan,
Thank you for very succinctly putting into words what I have been struggling to say in the other similar post.

Well done.

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from 007 wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Amen. Where's PETA and the Humane Society when you need them??

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

If the wants of human beings are not more important than the wants or even the needs of animals, then PETA is already here. I don't need a garage, I want it, but if mice need a home and they choose my garage, I will kill them. I won't enjoy it, but that's what I'll do, and I won't eat them or use their hides for clothing. Call me a "speciesist."

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from Pagan_Hunter wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Armchair,

Why not just get a cat?

My cat loves eating the mice out of my barn

I barely ever have to feed her.

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from Pagan_Hunter wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I know it seems like I'm being a wisea**, but I'll bet I can come up with a solution to any reasonable situation you propose that doesn't involve the needless loss of life.

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from seadog wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Let's not confuse animal cruelty with animal rights. Animal rights is some nonsense made up by the PETA type people. Animals don't have rights--people have responsibilities. One of our responsibilities is not to be unnecessarily cruel to animals. I would give the old lady a pass on this because of her age, but it's still wrong. It's not "torturing puppies" kind of wrong--just wrong.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Why not just get a cat?"

Why is buying a cat to rip up the mice in your barn preferable to killing the mice yourself?

"but I'll bet I can come up with a solution to any reasonable situation you propose that doesn't involve the needless loss of life."

Perhaps, but I doubt that you could come up with a reaonsable solution to a situation.

Jeez. "Needless loss of life." Get real. In nature life and death occur all the time and often as not there's nothing needful about death; that sort of "circle of life" holism is strictly Disney stuff. Ever see that video of the Argentinian coastal Orca playing with its food? Ever actually watch a cat stalk, capture, and smack around its prey before it kills? Ever wonder how much "need" was involved when a Mountain lion kills every single animal in a petting zoo's menagerie?

And I shudder when I think about alleged "outdoorsmen" or hunters on an F&S blog making "need" the standard to justify the death of a game animal. Few of us who hunt NEED to do so. There's always chicken and beef from the grocery store. In my view NEED has nothing to do with the conversation. If it did, we'd all have to quit hunting tomorrow.

I'm with Armchair Outfitter on this. Call me a species-ist if you will, but Homo sapiens is at the top of the food chain (most of the time) and that's why we get to call the shots (most of the time).

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Pagan_Hunter, I had a house cat, but she passed away about a year ago, and I've been too devastated to think of getting another one yet. It's not that I don't value animal life, I do, but whenever animal life conflicts with a human desire for food, shelter, clothing, or even a rose garden, there is no contest to me. I appreciate you expressing your views in a way that does not insult or demean others. I just wish we didn't have to invoke "the law" for every aspect of our daily lives. As a lawyer, I feel that the intrusion of the law into every nook and cranny of human existence fosters disrespect for the law. I'm probably unwittingly breaking 20 or so laws as we speak just because the law is so complex that it's impossible to know it, let alone follow it.

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from Elliott Balthazor wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

she should be charged with her towns penaltys for animal cruelty

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from Elliott Balthazor wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

she should be charged with her towns penaltys for animal cruelty

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from Pagan_Hunter wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike,

As to your point about predators playing with their food and thereby causing unneeded suffering,

I didn't say that causing unneeded suffering was wrong because it doesn't happen in nature. All sorts of things happen in nature that are immoral, surely everyone knows this. As perhaps the first animals with brains complex enough to comprehend morality, Shouldn't we choose to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the others?

"Few of us who hunt NEED to do so. There's always chicken and beef from the grocery store."

This is a debate I have with my more hippie-ish friends quite often. When you buy that chicken or beef from the grocery store, something still died so that you can have a meal. You just didn't have to see it. In order for us to live, other things must die, period. There is no way to get around it. Hunters are (?should be?) aware of this fact in a way that non-hunters are not. However, I offer it as my humble opinion that the morality I mentioned earlier should govern this killing.

Armchair-

I agree that we should try our best to keep the morality and legality arguments separate. Indeed, there are many illegal things that are perfectly moral, and many immoral things that are perfectly legal. Both are legitimate and stimulating debates to have, however it is important to keep them separate.

For example, the fact that Mike thinks this lady's actions were moral doesn't necessarily make the legal.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"All sorts of things happen in nature that are immoral, surely everyone knows this. As perhaps the first animals with brains complex enough to comprehend morality, Shouldn't we choose to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the others?"

Nothing that happens in nature is "immoral." Morality is a human sentiment, and the standards have varied among cultures and within cultures through time. I don't see that the old lady in question did anything that approaches "immorality." I do wonder about the morality of people who want her (by recall from this thread) imprisoned, or fined to the maximum extent of the law, or charged with animal cruelty (because in my view there's no evidence she was being cruel) or charged with "poaching." In my view, the anger directed at her is symptomatic of a far greater threat to society than one little old lady killing a garden pest without involving the bureaucracy prior to doing it.

"However, I offer it as my humble opinion that the morality I mentioned earlier should govern this killing."

OK. We just disagree. Her property rights trump the deer's privilege to exist in her backyard, IMO. I don't concede that some subjective standard involving "need" needs to be debated. The deer were damaging her property. That's an open and shut case of justified pest removal as I see it.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"For example, the fact that Mike thinks this lady's actions were moral doesn't necessarily make the legal."

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

I think morality has nothing to do with her case.

I think what she did was legal because it was a reasonable and justifiable response to damage inflicted to her property.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

No mike this was indeed illegal cos deer is regulated as game animals.. pest animals are not! she didnt have a license to kill it, it wasnt the right season and i haven heard of a "showel repeatedly to the head" season..
ANY breaking of the laws considering game animals should be persecuted along with poachers alike..
besides pest control regs are for protecting food/income generating crops and having flowers in the garden isnt crops if u dont breed them for retail and thusly didnt affect her livelihood in any way..
She just bludgeoned a small frigtened little baby animal that didnt know it was doing any wrong to "warn off and make an example" out of something so fierce that it could probably shiver and suck your thumb.. just that such and old lady was able to get near enough to tells me it was as close to newbourne as it could be since it couldnt run away from the nasty old biddy.. its mother was probably gonna come get it in a wee bit as soon as the old bird went inside.. cos deer mommas move theire newbourne around alot to avoid harm to come to theire little ones.. she could have just waited and the trouble would have gone away by itself..
Hunting regulations are in place to protect certain species of animals from nasty old people who think they have the right to go out and kill anything they want at any time, and if they r not enforced even on old ladies then all hell breaks loose..
mike and armchair, dont u have a heart??
its not our ability to kill any other species that makes us special, its our ability for compassion not only towards member of our own species but also to species completely different to us.. if animals could percieve us as we do ourselves they would see US as gods, do u really wanna be gods of death and senseless destruction??
Or the gods that helps scared little animals that poses no threath to them when theire life is in jeopardy..?
think about it dont just spout more "this is what i think so im gonna justify it by ANY means!" propaganda..
Thats what the nazis did...

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"No mike this was indeed illegal cos deer is regulated as game animals.."

Ho hum. Say what you like. Based on the evidence provided in the articles, I'd acquit. There's always room within the law for reasonable conduct and intent.

"ANY breaking of the laws considering game animals should be persecuted along with poachers alike.."

Persecuted was the correct word choice.

"besides pest control regs are for protecting food/income generating crops and having flowers in the garden isnt crops if u dont breed them for retail and thusly didnt affect her livelihood in any way.."

Effect on livelihood does not enter the equation, IMO. Her property was damaged by a pest. It really is that simple.

"She just bludgeoned a small frigtened little baby animal that didnt know it was doing any wrong to "warn off and make an example" out of something so fierce that it could probably shiver and suck your thumb.."

You're an animal rights activist trolling the F&S forum aren't you. I can tell by your obvious ignorance of animal behavior, wild animals (hint, fawns don't run away from approaching threats, they hide) and your excessive use of handwringing emotion-laden hyperbole (vis "nasty old biddy" and, of course, the totally predictable absurd reference to nazis) Perhaps you should run off and have a good cry.

"mike and armchair, dont u have a heart??"

Or maybe you're just on my side and trying real hard to embarress the "animal rights" crowd by parodying their usual cant. In which event, you're brilliant, carry on!

"do u really wanna be gods of death and senseless destruction??"

I don't know. How much does it pay and what are the work hours? Can I keep the rights to any entertainment products I might generate as a god of death and destruction? Would I get to be one of those COOL ones that has a following of grim faced warriors who hail my name while hoisting a tankard? Or would it just be one of those insane nutter gods that lays waste to everything in a pantheon of cruel, capricious and impersonal deities? Becuase if it's the former, you know, it'd be kind of cool, and I'd have my warrior followers sing stanzes from Blue Oyster Cult's "Godzilla" as they went about spreading the faith.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

How about she be kept in jail just long enough for her precious flowers to die.

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I will try not to post again on this topic because I think we've about "beaten it to death" if you'll excuse a very bad pun. I just want to clarify that I would not have killed the fawn myself, with a shovel or otherwise. I think it's highly likely that the doe was nearby and that she would have moved the fawn anyway, particularly if I went near it and then went back inside. To say that I would not have done it, however, is not the same as saying that I think this lady should go to jail for it or even be fined. Here we go with questions of morality versus questions of legality. Legality is, or should be, objective. If it's illegal, there's a penalty, and you pay it if you are caught. Morality is subjective by nature. Of necessity, morality takes into account the circumstances and limitations of the individual. I doubt that this lady knows much about deer or fawns. If she was frightened, as she claimed, or she just plain didn't know what else to do, then her actions were not immoral. If, on the other hand, she hates the deer for ruining her garden and she enjoyed the opportunity to smash one for what she perceived as a slight, that's an immoral act to me. If she saw the deer population as a nuisance, and she was reducing the population by one when she had the chance by the most humane means at her disposal, that's somewhere in between. I can't judge the morality of her actions, because I don't have enough information, leaving aside the question of whether I have the moral authority to judge her.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Now Armchair Outfitter, won't you join me in a virtual chorus of Godzilla?

"With a purposeful grimace and a terrible sound
he pulls the spitting high-tension wires
doooowwwn."

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Ohhh no! They say he's got to go . . . go, go, Godzilla!" I hoist my tankard to you, sir, and blatantly violate my own moral compunctions against posting again.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

armchair take a stand against mike cos he is obviously a bit of a nutter.. withouth a heart at all..
And no i dont hold with the whackjobs in peta etc. im a hunter since 13 and have a degree in biology, zoology, bothany, chemistry etc.. basically educated as a highlvl. state gamewarden.. and i have a big soft heart for frigtened little things that isnt hurting your property a bit by being there (the only reason why the baby deer didnt run away was that it was so newbourne that it couldnt walk well yet and so therefore wasnt weened of milk.. not eating any plants in the garden but just hiding there )
Peace out..

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from bluecollarkid wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

What the old lady did was excessive but not criminal. I think she should have gone inside, pulled out her .357 and offed the deer that way if that's what she wanted to so. Why waste state resources (namely the cost of a trial, prosecutor, judge, etc.) to try a case like this?

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from Big O wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Poaching is POACHING ! and she SHOULD be charged.
As for the method of kill. Alright Mr. Diehl, scince you feel so strongly abouy this how about this sesson you hunt with a shovel and see what the Wildlife Officers in your state have to say about your "method of harvest". Let us know please, after the trial of course.

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from SBFLY wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike, you scare the pants off me. You may be a caveman, but I appreciate the brain function granted to me. As an evolved being I value my moral compass. Beating animals to death is a no-no.

Did you forget this little tidbit? "Female deer leave their fawns in secluded spots while they forage for food. The fawns avoid being eaten by predators by remaining still until their mothers return. Young fawns are still nursing and do not eat flowers and other foliage"(an obvious behavior recognized by any sportsman)

I have no interest in arguing with you or anyone else, I have said all that I wanted.

And yes I hunt and fish, why else would I be here?

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Big O, there are times when we agree and times when we don't. She wasn't poaching, IMO. Life is complex, laws are complex and written to cover the imaginable usual circumstances. If you're one of those people who has to have a black and white view of the world then I can see how you can only view any death of a game animal as a licensed take or else poaching. But that's never been the real world. Or perhaps not so until quite recently.

The rest of your post is kind of a straw man argument. We're not talking about a woman who went out into deer country and sought out and killed a deer. We're talking about a woman in an urban setting that killed a deer in her garden. OBVIOUSLY (why I should have to explain this is not clear), I don't hunt with a frigging shovel. But then, I own firearms, I am familiar with hunting regs, and I don't have a particular problem with garden pests. The laws covering "poaching" don't really deal with the circumstances faced by this lady. At her age, you can bet she was raised at a time in this country when her chosen method of dispatch would have raised no concerns. Was a time when people would drown unwanted kittens too. Probably a person doing that, today, would also face "animal cruelty" charges.

Anyone stewing in their own outrage and wanting the prosecutor to throw the book at her, surely the most appropriate use of time in a suburb of a rotted, economically depressed, somewhat crime ridden urban concentration in the heart of the rust belt, is not playing with a full deck.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Mike, you scare the pants off me. You may be a caveman, but I appreciate the brain function granted to me. As an evolved being I value my moral compass. Beating animals to death is a no-no."

You're easily scared. The real world may not be for you. I recommend that you spend more time with Nintendo.

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from Big O wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Out of season, no licence, with an "illegal" weapon. IS POACHING no matter where you live. I NEVER said "animal cruelty", but she killed it with a SHOVEL ! Why did she not just try to "run it off", with said shovel. Then she would'nt be in this mess to begin with.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Out of season, no licence, with an "illegal" weapon. IS POACHING no matter where you live."

Baloney.

"I NEVER said "animal cruelty", but she killed it with a SHOVEL ! Why did she not just try to "run it off", with said shovel. Then she would'nt be in this mess to begin with."

Cruelty charges were added by the prosecutor. I can't explain why. Perhaps it was the politician-neighbor.

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from ggmack wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

If this was anyone but a young kid or a little old lady then great they over reacted and they deserve the fine. but my neighbor is 74 and she loves them i have seen her throw boiling water on bunnies and shoot squirrels to protect her flowers.

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from Ed J wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

She sould be a farmer,then she would be compensated for the crop loss.

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Iddork? What are you mike 10? To set the record straight I do not take any political side and I do know the differance betweem man and animal. All this woman had to do is call the F@G to come get the fawn no her life was not in danger and what she did was against the law and she should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Iddork? What are you mike 10?"

No, but I try to select language appropriate for the intellect of the person I'm addressing. "Juvenile" about describes you since you started your post with an fairly transparent insult. Most people are smart enough to recognize retaliation when they earn it, but you're obviously not that smart.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"All this woman had to do is call the F@G to come get the fawn no her life was not in danger and what she did was against the law and she should be punished to the fullest extent of the law."

Obviously I don't agree. I can think of a thousand more important violations of the law that happen daily and are more worthy of investigation or prosecution. The woman's offense doesn't rise to the harm committed when someone illegally parks in a handicap parking space.

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from OrangeNeckInNY wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

She should have dragged it into the house, beat it to death in there and then butchered it for the meat. Hell, how much does a Granny make in social security payments? And she's probably on food stamps. She spends her money on nice flowers to make her property look good for the neighborhood and this doe has the nerve bed down and probably eat her flowers? Oh hell no. To penalize her for protecting her property??? You all who sided with the doe have really effed up priorities. What if it was YOUR grandma who is going to jail and fined $1000 (that she can't pay)? Who do you think she's going to try to hit up for that money?

The DEC is a joke, who can barge into your home without a search warrant and arrest you if you have untagged game meat in your freezer. What a big effing load of government intrusion into our lives.

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Callin the kettle black are'nt ya mike? As far as I am concerned you are a pittifull human being and like big o said why dont you hunt with a shovel this season and let us know how it works out. What would you do if your dog went on to someones yard and started to dig holes and the person who owned the house came out and clubed it to death? I know a dog is not the same as a fawn but damage is damage. Well mike what would you do?

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from kolbster wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I have to agree with Mike on this one.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Callin the kettle black are'nt ya mike?"

Heck no. I try to keep the conversation away from this sort of thing, but I'll give pushback when someone's contribution to the thread is like your first post to me. There's no equivalence between us. You're a troll and you're sniveling.

"As far as I am concerned you are a pittifull human being and like big o said why dont you hunt with a shovel this season and let us know how it works out."

Because, and I'm sure a dimwit like you needs this explained, a gun works better than a shovel when hunting. And yeah, I know what you think of me. In my view, you're a waste of molecules and you've never had a single intelligent much less civil contribution to offer to a discussion.

"What would you do if your dog went on to someones yard and started to dig holes and the person who owned the house came out and clubed it to death?"

Where is the equivalence between a pet digging a hole and a wild animal? What I'd do is talk to the owner of the pet. If it did it again I'd call the dog pound. Running with your analogy for a moment, was it self obvious that the old lady should try to reason with the fawn's doe? Or are YOU the one who'd pay for pest removal on a neighbor's property?

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike all I have to say is you are a bitter, worthless piece of crap who thinks to highly of themselves and I just hope one day you get what is coming to you.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Idduckhunter, all I have to say is that your most recent post is wholly typical of your usual screed.

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Fawns get smoked on the highways by automobiles every day. Fawns get ate by predators every day. If granny killed a fawn because it was in her roses what other than being a story for folks to talk about does it really matter. Granny has made it to 75 years of age, leave her alone.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Wonder if the ole girl was off her medication,.
Beating a fawn to death ( with a shovel)is just cold,.or slightly crazy ,. by anyones morality or law.
One hard smack with a louis-ville slugger would do it quickly and cleanly,. but few 75 year old women are capable of that.

with no intent toward the sexist route ,.. have seen (witnessed) some elderly and some not so elderly ladys just "go off" for apparetnly little if any reason.
Other than something destroying what their efforts produced,. which when you think about it is not terribly divergent form rational behavior. Most of the time yuk yuk

Then again for her to disghcharge a firearm within municiple limits would have likley landed her in more trouble.

Its a tough one ,. especially for the fawn.
Have had em in my back yard ,. but I don't go ballistic
when I see em ,. what I do do,. is smack the doe with a sling shot if I can and what I have done is tape a 10 guage shell to an arrow ,..
Out of a 65 lb recurve if Mommy doe gets smacked on the butt with that.
She won't drop the fawns off in that place again while she goes munching the neigborhood flowers fruits and nuts ,..

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from Paul Wilke wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike I think you're an instigator but this has produce more laughs than I had for a long time. Thank you all, idiot and sensible alike.
In my neighborhood most animals bigger than a mouse are "game animals" and can only be killed legally in season and by approved tools.
There is no proper means to deal with unwanted wildlife, I can't legally live trap and move a raccoon that wants my garage as his own.
For that matter I can't legally feed squirrels in my own yard.
To remove an unwanted critter I must ask animal control for a live trap, I can set it and then call animal control to remove the critter for me. Given the time between a call and a response this would be animal cruelty in my opinion.
Like the old lady I've resorted to more efficient methods, however altho I'm just as illegal I'm much sneakier.

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from 268bull wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Wildlife have adapted and much of it is now surburban. She broke the law no matter how you bend and twist this story, and could of just as easily contacted the state Dept. of Fish & Wildlife for assistance. The fawn was to young to be feeding on her flowers, otherwise it would have ran off when she approached it. That was cold behaviour on her part. A fine and probation would be appropriate.

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from hunt_fish_sleep wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

That neighbor just needs to be mind their own business. Hear no evil see no evil.

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from rascal wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I just fell a little bit in love with Mike Diehl.
My farming Grandma drove out varmits any way she needed to. When a neighbors pit bull jumped my fence and threatened me and my dog I let that neighbor know (and the HOA "mgmt" company) that if it EVER happened again I'd be pulling out and using my 40 caliber. Is that the same as a baby fawn? A pest is a pest, and a threat is a threat.

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from Don Mitchell wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

My thanks go out to Miike Diehl and Rascal on this one, I feel the same way. My tomato plants and flower beds ar in shambels from the deer in my hood.

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from JohnR wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

In most states one is permitted to protect their lives and PROPERTY with the use of force and up to the use of deadly force to do so. For all of those screaming "poacher" it can be successfully argued (legally) that the deer was on her property, and destroying her property, she therefore acted in self defense of said property which is permitted under law.
One of the worst movies Disney ever created was Bambi.
Personally, I wouldn't have done what she did. For me, a simple "BOO" and "Get out of here" would have sufficed.

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

lets be clear here,

Those of us saying saying that this lady did something wrong, are NOT saying that farmers shouldn't be able to protect their crops from deer.

We ARE saying that when a fawn, so young it has never eaten a single plant, is bedding in your garden... slowly bludgeoning it to death is probably not an appropriate response. Especially since it is illegal in this case.

Also, I don't see how Disney or any other source of anthropomorphising has anything to do with it. Quote me one case where anyone ascribed a human quality to the fawn?

Respecting life is not the same thing as thinking that a fawn cries when it's mother dies.

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Well said Ken.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I think we all agree, Ken, that we would not handle it this way. I think you're reading alot into the story when you add adverbs like "slowly." It makes it sound like you agree with the nutbags who think she has "rage issues" and ought to be institutionalized.

My view is that rather than throwing in the charge of animal cruelty (which I suspect won't stand, because there's a world of difference between the people who just like to harm animals a la Michael Vick and this old lady), the correct LAW ENFORCEMENT response is something like this:

"Uh, hello miss. Listen, that's probably how they handled cases like this when you were a child but we'd prefer that you call animal control. Seeing an animal killed can be upsetting to the neighbors. Please don't do anything like this again."

But, as I have noted before in this thread, there seem to be LOTS of people who are now part of the culture of the perpetually enraged. Between the dork, and another fellow who implied that siding with her puts one in league with the nazis, I'd say that SANITY (judging by the company kept) is on my side of the argument.

But carry on. It's a big world with plenty of room for opinions.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

And to the others who've given me some support here, you have my thanks. It's nice to know that there are still some people with their feet on the ground.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

no mike i said that the way u justify your twisted worldwiew with any means possible is what the nazis did..
And insane people mostly think they r sane..
If i was the djuge in this case id make her pay 500 bukkos in fine and spend a week in jail so she would learn that it was the wrong thing to do.. make an example of her to other people that it was wrong like she tried to do with the fawn.. eye for an eye by law:P
but mike your a relic in this outdated worlwiev.. hope u take it to heart and actually evolve a little..
Nothing personal though.. probably a good enough fella otherwise..
peace out!

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike Diehl,
The more I read the more I don't know which side of the fence your on but, I believe this lady could have chosen another method of removal than by this dastardly deed (I got that quote from the cartoon Rockey the Flying Squirrel). Let's see how old you are if you remember that.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"no mike i said that the way u justify your twisted worldwiew with any means possible is what the nazis did.."

It was and continues to be an absurdly ridiculous analogy and an utterly meritless bit of hyperbole that contributes nothing to the discussion.

"If i was the djuge in this case id make her pay 500 bukkos in fine and spend a week in jail so she would learn that it was the wrong thing to do.."

And that is precisely the sort of over-the-top hyper-reactionary radical solution of the sort to which I object. I think she'll "learn a lesson" with a warning and a politely worded request.

"but mike your a relic in this outdated worlwiev.. hope"

I think, judging by the reaction in the other blog and in another one that I started, that it is the "Hang her" types (I do recall you calling her a "nasty old biddy") that my world view isn't so unpopular or outdated as you would want me to believe. It may be that there are some people with absolutely no sense of scale of the offense (including the prosecutor) but in the end all I can say is I suspect that most of these charges will be dropped as soon as someone who ISN'T a PC radical steps in and takes charge of the investigation.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Let's see how old you are if you remember that."

@ Jim in MO.

"Hey Rockeeey. Watch me pull a rabbit out of this hat!"
"What? Again?"

"Hey, that's no rabbit!"
"Now here's something you'll *really* like."

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

yes i think she is a nasty old biddy and also a two faced liar for telling two totally different stories about the event in question, i dont belive her "little old lady story" that makes her scared to death over a little helpless fawn.. that u belive her just proves the old saying "there is one bourne every day.."
over the top would be to lock her up for months so a week in jail ainth bad compared..
And dude in this its not me thats the radical.. its U!
Take a survey if u doubt me..

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike,
I don't know if your braggin' or complainin' about your age but you got it.

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from Skeeb wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

She should be put in a straight jacket and running into padded walls, seriously, she needs to be institutionalized.

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from logan.vandermay wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Not everyone has a reliable game fish and parks int their state. Where I am from game wardens only show up on first day of hunting season to see if the can give someone a ticket for something stupid. They don't have a clue to how many game animals are around. They never stop to talk or ask about the population of them either. We never had antelope here until 20 years ago and the last ten years they were over populated. We didn't even have a legal season until two years ago. So it isn't always as easy to just call a game warden, depending on where you live.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"she is a nasty old biddy and also a two faced liar"

This from the guy who knows *nothing* about her.

"She should be put in a straight jacket and running into padded walls, seriously, she needs to be institutionalized."

And this from our local sound byte psychologist.

These are exactly examples of the pc culture of victimhood and two bit outrage that I mentioned earlier.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Yeah mike keep taking cutouts of other peoples arguments, totally out of context like u do it. keep beating this dead horse and see if u just use a shovel u can bring it back alive..
pathetic!
I rescind my previous statement that u may be a decent fella otherwise.. your obviously not, cos then u would be graceous in defeat..
just remember its the majority that makes the laws and your opinions ainth in majority! Luckily u r old and such caveman attitudes will die out with ya!!!

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Who's defeated?
Who's ingracious? I'm not the one handing out negative feedback for dissent, calling anyone a nazi, a piece of "crap," concocting psychological diagnoses about a 75 year old lady on the basis of something I've read in a headling, calling her other names, or demanding her institutionalization, or insisting she be charged with all manner of offenses that really don't fit the action.

Your criticism, along with all your haughty, arrogant, martinet pronouncements about my existentialness, are rejected en toto, and you are kindly invited to go jump off a bridge. With "all due respect" of course.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"I don't know if your braggin' or complainin' about your age but you got it."

Both maybe. ;)

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Hey mike im holding up my hand palm inwards.. READ BETWEEN THE LINES!:D

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from JohnR wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Ken my comment about Disney was thrown in as a general afterthought and was not directed towards anyone's comments here. Anthropomorphism, IMHO, is one of the many reasons animal rights activists are able to sway public feeling toward their cause. (and yes I do assign some of the blame to Disney.)

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from M1jhartman wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I would have liked to see her use a better weapon but what can you do. It's done. I shot a racoon living under my house last month. Oh well. People, we need to realize that animals do not get the same rights that we do. I would think that the shovel is probably one of the worst ways to do this and I think that is why so many are upset over this. Chances are, as I see them from the text, that this lady lives in an area where the deer are coming into an urban or suburban area. Animals have to be controlled and this is the price we pay as we move into the places they inhabit. It was better that she did it herself rather than have some pest removal service come and take it away. As soon as they did that the fawn would have turned out one of two ways. 1-dead- no mother. 2-tame-which would cost taxpayer money and take away from what that animal was meant to be.

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from M1jhartman wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

In a perfect world a .22 and some freezer paper would be involved.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 40 weeks ago

"Hey mike im holding up my hand palm inwards.. READ BETWEEN THE LINES!"

That's a novel way of broadcasting your IQ.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 40 weeks ago

finally got it did ya??:P

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 40 weeks ago

What a dispicable act by this ol' lady. I kill garden pests too but a spotted fawn? She must be heartless. Somehow the media will make this about cruel hunters, i'm sure.

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from ck1reed wrote 4 years 38 weeks ago

What if the fawn was sick or badly injured, and the old lady was just putting it out of its misery..

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Diehl, you are buy far a without a shadow of a doudt a very disturbed person if you think this lady did the right thing. It also makes me cringe that what ever staet you live in allows a person so mest up in the head as you to carry a gun. Get some help man.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

This falls under the description of animal cruelty and unless the woman has some medical/mental issues that we are unaware of, she should be prosecuted just as anyone else would be.

After all, justice is supposed to be blind in this country.

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from Pagan_Hunter wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike Diehl, I usually enjoy your posts, but I think this time you are painting a little too widely with your "Liberal nanny state" brush.

I think there are two issues here, legality and morality.

legality,
last I checked, poaching was defined as illegally killing an animal, not just illegally killing an animal for sporting purposes. It was out of season, AND she didn't have a license, sorry folks, that's poaching.

If I used my bow to shoot a 12 point buck out of season because it was bedding in suburban flower garden, would you stand up so strongly and say I wasn't poaching? I was just trying to protect my flowers!

She probably isn't guilty of animal abuse, I doubt there was any Mike Vick style sadistic intent involved.

Morality,
When we take an animal while hunting, we do it to feed our families. The loss in justified because it is necessary for our families to live. The same is true when we harvest lettuce for a salad or pull a trout out of the river to grill.

This is a very different thing, that rose garden is nowhere near necessary for her to live. She wants it. Just like that fawn wants a sheltered place to take a nap. Her want is no important than the fawns, and while she would be justified in shoo-ing it away or putting up a fence, she is by no means justified in slowly bludgeoning it to death.

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from seadog wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Let's not confuse animal cruelty with animal rights. Animal rights is some nonsense made up by the PETA type people. Animals don't have rights--people have responsibilities. One of our responsibilities is not to be unnecessarily cruel to animals. I would give the old lady a pass on this because of her age, but it's still wrong. It's not "torturing puppies" kind of wrong--just wrong.

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from trophyslayer wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Without a doubt she should pay the maximum fine. I don't know if I'd throw an old lady in jail but something has to be done because beating a fawn to death ranks on my list as one of the lowliest things a person could do. Scaring off deer with a broomstick is one thing but killing a fawn with a shovel is just plain ridiculous.

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from Koldkut wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Only a $1000 fine? She should be treated like a poacher IMO.

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from buckeye wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I would not throw her in jail due to her age, but she should have to pay the full fine.

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from MB915 wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike Diehl, even if you would not consider this animal abuse, it is still poaching and waste of a game animal. She should be charged as a poacher and be fined according to whatever Ohio charges people who poach out of season and with wasting a game animal.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Anyone bludgenoning a baby fawn to death with a showel to protect some damn garden flower should be locked in a mental institution if u ask me.. if its somewhere u dont want it to be then just pick it up and move it somewhere else.. they arenth dangerous at all to anyone able to walk upright.. whats next? bludgeoning a baby that crawls into your driveway??
CLEAR case of animal cruelty..
lock the old biddy up!!!!!

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from FloridaHunter1226 wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I would not expect to see her in jail... I just don't think she could handle it. But I have to say this, at that age, their life has a system and also they put an effort into something and don't want to see their effort gone to waste. I am not saying what she did is right, but people at that age tend to blow up over the smallest things. I would suggest some anger management with whatever she is fined with.

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from Big O wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Poaching is POACHING ! and she SHOULD be charged.
As for the method of kill. Alright Mr. Diehl, scince you feel so strongly abouy this how about this sesson you hunt with a shovel and see what the Wildlife Officers in your state have to say about your "method of harvest". Let us know please, after the trial of course.

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Callin the kettle black are'nt ya mike? As far as I am concerned you are a pittifull human being and like big o said why dont you hunt with a shovel this season and let us know how it works out. What would you do if your dog went on to someones yard and started to dig holes and the person who owned the house came out and clubed it to death? I know a dog is not the same as a fawn but damage is damage. Well mike what would you do?

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from ken.mcloud wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

lets be clear here,

Those of us saying saying that this lady did something wrong, are NOT saying that farmers shouldn't be able to protect their crops from deer.

We ARE saying that when a fawn, so young it has never eaten a single plant, is bedding in your garden... slowly bludgeoning it to death is probably not an appropriate response. Especially since it is illegal in this case.

Also, I don't see how Disney or any other source of anthropomorphising has anything to do with it. Quote me one case where anyone ascribed a human quality to the fawn?

Respecting life is not the same thing as thinking that a fawn cries when it's mother dies.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike,
I don't know if your braggin' or complainin' about your age but you got it.

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from JohnR wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Ken my comment about Disney was thrown in as a general afterthought and was not directed towards anyone's comments here. Anthropomorphism, IMHO, is one of the many reasons animal rights activists are able to sway public feeling toward their cause. (and yes I do assign some of the blame to Disney.)

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from hunt_fish_sleep wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

To be honest with you, I think that would be an absolutely hilarious scene from a third person point of view. Little old lady starts feebly swinging a shovel, neighbor looks around the fence and says "hey stop" but little old lady, not wearing her hearing aid, keeps whacking unphased.

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from vtbluegrass wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

A deer living amongst the suburbs or over-populations on farms have moved into the gray area between sporting game and nuisance pest. If you happened to take one out before it gets to maturity and has the chance to procreate you have done a service to an area that is overpopulated. A little old lady with a shovel takes out one fawn; do you have any idea how many fawns get taken out by bush-hogs, hay rakes, and balers every year?
Now I would say this is very different than the case reported on FS a few weeks ago about teens kicking a fawn to death. This woman motivation appears to be removing a perceived pest from her garden. A group of teenagers kicking a fawn to death would seem to be motivated by malice and something just off in the head.

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from Koldkut wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I can already see the bad blood running down this site from this one. I have my feelings on this. Facts are that she beat a fawn with a shovel and killed it. If we were to play a little game and fill in the blank, everyone will have some on the list that they will agree with that there is no crime commited in killing said creature. "She beat a ____ with a shovel and killed it" A. Cricket B. Mouse C. Rabbit D. Skunk E. Garden Snake F. Deer Fawn G. Baby Kitten H. Chihuahua I. The neighbors 3 year old son. Where does the deer rate? If you eat meat, there are already thousands of animals being killed on your behalf because we choose it that way. Others we choose not to kill and it makes it a crime, and then there are others that get killed who don't get afforded the same protections that the choicest and cutest animals get. Kill the mouse, spare the owl. Kill both and see which one results in some strife and a ticket/fine.

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from Bob81 wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Pagan,
Thank you for very succinctly putting into words what I have been struggling to say in the other similar post.

Well done.

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from 007 wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Amen. Where's PETA and the Humane Society when you need them??

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

If the wants of human beings are not more important than the wants or even the needs of animals, then PETA is already here. I don't need a garage, I want it, but if mice need a home and they choose my garage, I will kill them. I won't enjoy it, but that's what I'll do, and I won't eat them or use their hides for clothing. Call me a "speciesist."

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Pagan_Hunter, I had a house cat, but she passed away about a year ago, and I've been too devastated to think of getting another one yet. It's not that I don't value animal life, I do, but whenever animal life conflicts with a human desire for food, shelter, clothing, or even a rose garden, there is no contest to me. I appreciate you expressing your views in a way that does not insult or demean others. I just wish we didn't have to invoke "the law" for every aspect of our daily lives. As a lawyer, I feel that the intrusion of the law into every nook and cranny of human existence fosters disrespect for the law. I'm probably unwittingly breaking 20 or so laws as we speak just because the law is so complex that it's impossible to know it, let alone follow it.

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from Elliott Balthazor wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

she should be charged with her towns penaltys for animal cruelty

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from Pagan_Hunter wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike,

As to your point about predators playing with their food and thereby causing unneeded suffering,

I didn't say that causing unneeded suffering was wrong because it doesn't happen in nature. All sorts of things happen in nature that are immoral, surely everyone knows this. As perhaps the first animals with brains complex enough to comprehend morality, Shouldn't we choose to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the others?

"Few of us who hunt NEED to do so. There's always chicken and beef from the grocery store."

This is a debate I have with my more hippie-ish friends quite often. When you buy that chicken or beef from the grocery store, something still died so that you can have a meal. You just didn't have to see it. In order for us to live, other things must die, period. There is no way to get around it. Hunters are (?should be?) aware of this fact in a way that non-hunters are not. However, I offer it as my humble opinion that the morality I mentioned earlier should govern this killing.

Armchair-

I agree that we should try our best to keep the morality and legality arguments separate. Indeed, there are many illegal things that are perfectly moral, and many immoral things that are perfectly legal. Both are legitimate and stimulating debates to have, however it is important to keep them separate.

For example, the fact that Mike thinks this lady's actions were moral doesn't necessarily make the legal.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

No mike this was indeed illegal cos deer is regulated as game animals.. pest animals are not! she didnt have a license to kill it, it wasnt the right season and i haven heard of a "showel repeatedly to the head" season..
ANY breaking of the laws considering game animals should be persecuted along with poachers alike..
besides pest control regs are for protecting food/income generating crops and having flowers in the garden isnt crops if u dont breed them for retail and thusly didnt affect her livelihood in any way..
She just bludgeoned a small frigtened little baby animal that didnt know it was doing any wrong to "warn off and make an example" out of something so fierce that it could probably shiver and suck your thumb.. just that such and old lady was able to get near enough to tells me it was as close to newbourne as it could be since it couldnt run away from the nasty old biddy.. its mother was probably gonna come get it in a wee bit as soon as the old bird went inside.. cos deer mommas move theire newbourne around alot to avoid harm to come to theire little ones.. she could have just waited and the trouble would have gone away by itself..
Hunting regulations are in place to protect certain species of animals from nasty old people who think they have the right to go out and kill anything they want at any time, and if they r not enforced even on old ladies then all hell breaks loose..
mike and armchair, dont u have a heart??
its not our ability to kill any other species that makes us special, its our ability for compassion not only towards member of our own species but also to species completely different to us.. if animals could percieve us as we do ourselves they would see US as gods, do u really wanna be gods of death and senseless destruction??
Or the gods that helps scared little animals that poses no threath to them when theire life is in jeopardy..?
think about it dont just spout more "this is what i think so im gonna justify it by ANY means!" propaganda..
Thats what the nazis did...

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"No mike this was indeed illegal cos deer is regulated as game animals.."

Ho hum. Say what you like. Based on the evidence provided in the articles, I'd acquit. There's always room within the law for reasonable conduct and intent.

"ANY breaking of the laws considering game animals should be persecuted along with poachers alike.."

Persecuted was the correct word choice.

"besides pest control regs are for protecting food/income generating crops and having flowers in the garden isnt crops if u dont breed them for retail and thusly didnt affect her livelihood in any way.."

Effect on livelihood does not enter the equation, IMO. Her property was damaged by a pest. It really is that simple.

"She just bludgeoned a small frigtened little baby animal that didnt know it was doing any wrong to "warn off and make an example" out of something so fierce that it could probably shiver and suck your thumb.."

You're an animal rights activist trolling the F&S forum aren't you. I can tell by your obvious ignorance of animal behavior, wild animals (hint, fawns don't run away from approaching threats, they hide) and your excessive use of handwringing emotion-laden hyperbole (vis "nasty old biddy" and, of course, the totally predictable absurd reference to nazis) Perhaps you should run off and have a good cry.

"mike and armchair, dont u have a heart??"

Or maybe you're just on my side and trying real hard to embarress the "animal rights" crowd by parodying their usual cant. In which event, you're brilliant, carry on!

"do u really wanna be gods of death and senseless destruction??"

I don't know. How much does it pay and what are the work hours? Can I keep the rights to any entertainment products I might generate as a god of death and destruction? Would I get to be one of those COOL ones that has a following of grim faced warriors who hail my name while hoisting a tankard? Or would it just be one of those insane nutter gods that lays waste to everything in a pantheon of cruel, capricious and impersonal deities? Becuase if it's the former, you know, it'd be kind of cool, and I'd have my warrior followers sing stanzes from Blue Oyster Cult's "Godzilla" as they went about spreading the faith.

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I will try not to post again on this topic because I think we've about "beaten it to death" if you'll excuse a very bad pun. I just want to clarify that I would not have killed the fawn myself, with a shovel or otherwise. I think it's highly likely that the doe was nearby and that she would have moved the fawn anyway, particularly if I went near it and then went back inside. To say that I would not have done it, however, is not the same as saying that I think this lady should go to jail for it or even be fined. Here we go with questions of morality versus questions of legality. Legality is, or should be, objective. If it's illegal, there's a penalty, and you pay it if you are caught. Morality is subjective by nature. Of necessity, morality takes into account the circumstances and limitations of the individual. I doubt that this lady knows much about deer or fawns. If she was frightened, as she claimed, or she just plain didn't know what else to do, then her actions were not immoral. If, on the other hand, she hates the deer for ruining her garden and she enjoyed the opportunity to smash one for what she perceived as a slight, that's an immoral act to me. If she saw the deer population as a nuisance, and she was reducing the population by one when she had the chance by the most humane means at her disposal, that's somewhere in between. I can't judge the morality of her actions, because I don't have enough information, leaving aside the question of whether I have the moral authority to judge her.

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Ohhh no! They say he's got to go . . . go, go, Godzilla!" I hoist my tankard to you, sir, and blatantly violate my own moral compunctions against posting again.

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from ggmack wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

If this was anyone but a young kid or a little old lady then great they over reacted and they deserve the fine. but my neighbor is 74 and she loves them i have seen her throw boiling water on bunnies and shoot squirrels to protect her flowers.

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from Ed J wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

She sould be a farmer,then she would be compensated for the crop loss.

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Well said Ken.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike Diehl,
The more I read the more I don't know which side of the fence your on but, I believe this lady could have chosen another method of removal than by this dastardly deed (I got that quote from the cartoon Rockey the Flying Squirrel). Let's see how old you are if you remember that.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Let's see how old you are if you remember that."

@ Jim in MO.

"Hey Rockeeey. Watch me pull a rabbit out of this hat!"
"What? Again?"

"Hey, that's no rabbit!"
"Now here's something you'll *really* like."

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

yes i think she is a nasty old biddy and also a two faced liar for telling two totally different stories about the event in question, i dont belive her "little old lady story" that makes her scared to death over a little helpless fawn.. that u belive her just proves the old saying "there is one bourne every day.."
over the top would be to lock her up for months so a week in jail ainth bad compared..
And dude in this its not me thats the radical.. its U!
Take a survey if u doubt me..

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from Skeeb wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

She should be put in a straight jacket and running into padded walls, seriously, she needs to be institutionalized.

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from logan.vandermay wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Not everyone has a reliable game fish and parks int their state. Where I am from game wardens only show up on first day of hunting season to see if the can give someone a ticket for something stupid. They don't have a clue to how many game animals are around. They never stop to talk or ask about the population of them either. We never had antelope here until 20 years ago and the last ten years they were over populated. We didn't even have a legal season until two years ago. So it isn't always as easy to just call a game warden, depending on where you live.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 40 weeks ago

What a dispicable act by this ol' lady. I kill garden pests too but a spotted fawn? She must be heartless. Somehow the media will make this about cruel hunters, i'm sure.

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from ck1reed wrote 4 years 38 weeks ago

What if the fawn was sick or badly injured, and the old lady was just putting it out of its misery..

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from Quiet Loner wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

In the Beach Boy's words, "go granny, go granny, go granny, go.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

No, it's not poaching. It may be an "illegal take" in the technical sense but it ain't remotely even close to the sort of person who jacks a deer at night or takes a trophy animal, lops off the antlers, and leaves the carcass to rot.

Not every deer is a sacred sporting resource. Where that old lady lives, and in many eastern and northern urban areas, deer are just an agricultural nuisance. A person shouldn't need a license to get a pest from her garden, and she shouldn't have to hire an expensive contractor to remove it.

Thirty years ago 99% of the sporting community would have shrugged and moved on already. This has nothing to do with unreasonable conduct on the old lady's part, and everything to do with a culture in which people feel entitled to be all uppity, judgmental, and outraged over absolutely trivial and completely unimportant stuff. That and the expansion of bureaucracy into every aspect of life, so that every public act from blowing your nose to running your lawn mower has to have some damned regulation governing how you must do it and why you're not qualified to do it for yourself and why you need a license and a professional contractor to do the job for you and why some damned bureaucrat should have coin on his palm to let you do it.

America is turning into a nation of perpetually outraged nanny state wimps.

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from Armchair Mike wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Would everyone's reaction be the same if it were a raccoon in her garden? A mole? A snake? Fawns are cute and all. I get it; save your comments, but this is the type of Disney anthropomorphism that we rant about every day on this site. Mike Diehl, as usual, has a good point. A cute, cuddly animal, in the wrong place, is a pest. How does the fact of using a shovel make it cruelty? A shovel is pretty quick if wielded correctly. It's a graphic image, but is that really what's bothering everyone, form over substance? How about a .30-06 at point blank range? Any discussion of hunting ethics in this situation is misplaced because this lady was not hunting, either for food or for sport. It's not what I would do, but any anti-hunter would make the same argument concerning what I plan to do on opening day.

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from beanap wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

damn shes about as bad a as a poacher

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Now that you mention age you bring up an interesting point. At 75 y.o. and given that she actually has an interest in gardening, she is of an age set of Americans for whom this sort of thing would not have cause a kerfuffle. She was likely raised to be independent enough to solve her own problems, especially when they are as relatively minor in the Grand Scheme of Things as removing a pest. It's only more recent generations that have been trained that every act must be regulated and scrutinized. It's like there's a bunch of saggy old Code Pink types seeking to infiltrate every facet of conduct and public discourse.

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from jjas wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

The law is the law. We make think this particular law is stupid, but that doesn't mean people can ignore it.

Don't like the laws, try to change 'em.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Why not just get a cat?"

Why is buying a cat to rip up the mice in your barn preferable to killing the mice yourself?

"but I'll bet I can come up with a solution to any reasonable situation you propose that doesn't involve the needless loss of life."

Perhaps, but I doubt that you could come up with a reaonsable solution to a situation.

Jeez. "Needless loss of life." Get real. In nature life and death occur all the time and often as not there's nothing needful about death; that sort of "circle of life" holism is strictly Disney stuff. Ever see that video of the Argentinian coastal Orca playing with its food? Ever actually watch a cat stalk, capture, and smack around its prey before it kills? Ever wonder how much "need" was involved when a Mountain lion kills every single animal in a petting zoo's menagerie?

And I shudder when I think about alleged "outdoorsmen" or hunters on an F&S blog making "need" the standard to justify the death of a game animal. Few of us who hunt NEED to do so. There's always chicken and beef from the grocery store. In my view NEED has nothing to do with the conversation. If it did, we'd all have to quit hunting tomorrow.

I'm with Armchair Outfitter on this. Call me a species-ist if you will, but Homo sapiens is at the top of the food chain (most of the time) and that's why we get to call the shots (most of the time).

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from Elliott Balthazor wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

she should be charged with her towns penaltys for animal cruelty

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"All sorts of things happen in nature that are immoral, surely everyone knows this. As perhaps the first animals with brains complex enough to comprehend morality, Shouldn't we choose to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the others?"

Nothing that happens in nature is "immoral." Morality is a human sentiment, and the standards have varied among cultures and within cultures through time. I don't see that the old lady in question did anything that approaches "immorality." I do wonder about the morality of people who want her (by recall from this thread) imprisoned, or fined to the maximum extent of the law, or charged with animal cruelty (because in my view there's no evidence she was being cruel) or charged with "poaching." In my view, the anger directed at her is symptomatic of a far greater threat to society than one little old lady killing a garden pest without involving the bureaucracy prior to doing it.

"However, I offer it as my humble opinion that the morality I mentioned earlier should govern this killing."

OK. We just disagree. Her property rights trump the deer's privilege to exist in her backyard, IMO. I don't concede that some subjective standard involving "need" needs to be debated. The deer were damaging her property. That's an open and shut case of justified pest removal as I see it.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"For example, the fact that Mike thinks this lady's actions were moral doesn't necessarily make the legal."

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

I think morality has nothing to do with her case.

I think what she did was legal because it was a reasonable and justifiable response to damage inflicted to her property.

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from Jim in Mo wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

How about she be kept in jail just long enough for her precious flowers to die.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Now Armchair Outfitter, won't you join me in a virtual chorus of Godzilla?

"With a purposeful grimace and a terrible sound
he pulls the spitting high-tension wires
doooowwwn."

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

armchair take a stand against mike cos he is obviously a bit of a nutter.. withouth a heart at all..
And no i dont hold with the whackjobs in peta etc. im a hunter since 13 and have a degree in biology, zoology, bothany, chemistry etc.. basically educated as a highlvl. state gamewarden.. and i have a big soft heart for frigtened little things that isnt hurting your property a bit by being there (the only reason why the baby deer didnt run away was that it was so newbourne that it couldnt walk well yet and so therefore wasnt weened of milk.. not eating any plants in the garden but just hiding there )
Peace out..

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from bluecollarkid wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

What the old lady did was excessive but not criminal. I think she should have gone inside, pulled out her .357 and offed the deer that way if that's what she wanted to so. Why waste state resources (namely the cost of a trial, prosecutor, judge, etc.) to try a case like this?

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from SBFLY wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike, you scare the pants off me. You may be a caveman, but I appreciate the brain function granted to me. As an evolved being I value my moral compass. Beating animals to death is a no-no.

Did you forget this little tidbit? "Female deer leave their fawns in secluded spots while they forage for food. The fawns avoid being eaten by predators by remaining still until their mothers return. Young fawns are still nursing and do not eat flowers and other foliage"(an obvious behavior recognized by any sportsman)

I have no interest in arguing with you or anyone else, I have said all that I wanted.

And yes I hunt and fish, why else would I be here?

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Big O, there are times when we agree and times when we don't. She wasn't poaching, IMO. Life is complex, laws are complex and written to cover the imaginable usual circumstances. If you're one of those people who has to have a black and white view of the world then I can see how you can only view any death of a game animal as a licensed take or else poaching. But that's never been the real world. Or perhaps not so until quite recently.

The rest of your post is kind of a straw man argument. We're not talking about a woman who went out into deer country and sought out and killed a deer. We're talking about a woman in an urban setting that killed a deer in her garden. OBVIOUSLY (why I should have to explain this is not clear), I don't hunt with a frigging shovel. But then, I own firearms, I am familiar with hunting regs, and I don't have a particular problem with garden pests. The laws covering "poaching" don't really deal with the circumstances faced by this lady. At her age, you can bet she was raised at a time in this country when her chosen method of dispatch would have raised no concerns. Was a time when people would drown unwanted kittens too. Probably a person doing that, today, would also face "animal cruelty" charges.

Anyone stewing in their own outrage and wanting the prosecutor to throw the book at her, surely the most appropriate use of time in a suburb of a rotted, economically depressed, somewhat crime ridden urban concentration in the heart of the rust belt, is not playing with a full deck.

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from Big O wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Out of season, no licence, with an "illegal" weapon. IS POACHING no matter where you live. I NEVER said "animal cruelty", but she killed it with a SHOVEL ! Why did she not just try to "run it off", with said shovel. Then she would'nt be in this mess to begin with.

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Iddork? What are you mike 10? To set the record straight I do not take any political side and I do know the differance betweem man and animal. All this woman had to do is call the F@G to come get the fawn no her life was not in danger and what she did was against the law and she should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

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from idduckhntr wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike all I have to say is you are a bitter, worthless piece of crap who thinks to highly of themselves and I just hope one day you get what is coming to you.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Idduckhunter, all I have to say is that your most recent post is wholly typical of your usual screed.

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Fawns get smoked on the highways by automobiles every day. Fawns get ate by predators every day. If granny killed a fawn because it was in her roses what other than being a story for folks to talk about does it really matter. Granny has made it to 75 years of age, leave her alone.

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from yohan wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Wonder if the ole girl was off her medication,.
Beating a fawn to death ( with a shovel)is just cold,.or slightly crazy ,. by anyones morality or law.
One hard smack with a louis-ville slugger would do it quickly and cleanly,. but few 75 year old women are capable of that.

with no intent toward the sexist route ,.. have seen (witnessed) some elderly and some not so elderly ladys just "go off" for apparetnly little if any reason.
Other than something destroying what their efforts produced,. which when you think about it is not terribly divergent form rational behavior. Most of the time yuk yuk

Then again for her to disghcharge a firearm within municiple limits would have likley landed her in more trouble.

Its a tough one ,. especially for the fawn.
Have had em in my back yard ,. but I don't go ballistic
when I see em ,. what I do do,. is smack the doe with a sling shot if I can and what I have done is tape a 10 guage shell to an arrow ,..
Out of a 65 lb recurve if Mommy doe gets smacked on the butt with that.
She won't drop the fawns off in that place again while she goes munching the neigborhood flowers fruits and nuts ,..

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from 268bull wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Wildlife have adapted and much of it is now surburban. She broke the law no matter how you bend and twist this story, and could of just as easily contacted the state Dept. of Fish & Wildlife for assistance. The fawn was to young to be feeding on her flowers, otherwise it would have ran off when she approached it. That was cold behaviour on her part. A fine and probation would be appropriate.

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from hunt_fish_sleep wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

That neighbor just needs to be mind their own business. Hear no evil see no evil.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

And to the others who've given me some support here, you have my thanks. It's nice to know that there are still some people with their feet on the ground.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

no mike i said that the way u justify your twisted worldwiew with any means possible is what the nazis did..
And insane people mostly think they r sane..
If i was the djuge in this case id make her pay 500 bukkos in fine and spend a week in jail so she would learn that it was the wrong thing to do.. make an example of her to other people that it was wrong like she tried to do with the fawn.. eye for an eye by law:P
but mike your a relic in this outdated worlwiev.. hope u take it to heart and actually evolve a little..
Nothing personal though.. probably a good enough fella otherwise..
peace out!

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"no mike i said that the way u justify your twisted worldwiew with any means possible is what the nazis did.."

It was and continues to be an absurdly ridiculous analogy and an utterly meritless bit of hyperbole that contributes nothing to the discussion.

"If i was the djuge in this case id make her pay 500 bukkos in fine and spend a week in jail so she would learn that it was the wrong thing to do.."

And that is precisely the sort of over-the-top hyper-reactionary radical solution of the sort to which I object. I think she'll "learn a lesson" with a warning and a politely worded request.

"but mike your a relic in this outdated worlwiev.. hope"

I think, judging by the reaction in the other blog and in another one that I started, that it is the "Hang her" types (I do recall you calling her a "nasty old biddy") that my world view isn't so unpopular or outdated as you would want me to believe. It may be that there are some people with absolutely no sense of scale of the offense (including the prosecutor) but in the end all I can say is I suspect that most of these charges will be dropped as soon as someone who ISN'T a PC radical steps in and takes charge of the investigation.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"she is a nasty old biddy and also a two faced liar"

This from the guy who knows *nothing* about her.

"She should be put in a straight jacket and running into padded walls, seriously, she needs to be institutionalized."

And this from our local sound byte psychologist.

These are exactly examples of the pc culture of victimhood and two bit outrage that I mentioned earlier.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"I don't know if your braggin' or complainin' about your age but you got it."

Both maybe. ;)

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Hey mike im holding up my hand palm inwards.. READ BETWEEN THE LINES!:D

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from M1jhartman wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I would have liked to see her use a better weapon but what can you do. It's done. I shot a racoon living under my house last month. Oh well. People, we need to realize that animals do not get the same rights that we do. I would think that the shovel is probably one of the worst ways to do this and I think that is why so many are upset over this. Chances are, as I see them from the text, that this lady lives in an area where the deer are coming into an urban or suburban area. Animals have to be controlled and this is the price we pay as we move into the places they inhabit. It was better that she did it herself rather than have some pest removal service come and take it away. As soon as they did that the fawn would have turned out one of two ways. 1-dead- no mother. 2-tame-which would cost taxpayer money and take away from what that animal was meant to be.

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from M1jhartman wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

In a perfect world a .22 and some freezer paper would be involved.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 40 weeks ago

"Hey mike im holding up my hand palm inwards.. READ BETWEEN THE LINES!"

That's a novel way of broadcasting your IQ.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 40 weeks ago

finally got it did ya??:P

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from Pagan_Hunter wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Armchair,

Why not just get a cat?

My cat loves eating the mice out of my barn

I barely ever have to feed her.

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from Pagan_Hunter wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I know it seems like I'm being a wisea**, but I'll bet I can come up with a solution to any reasonable situation you propose that doesn't involve the needless loss of life.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Mike, you scare the pants off me. You may be a caveman, but I appreciate the brain function granted to me. As an evolved being I value my moral compass. Beating animals to death is a no-no."

You're easily scared. The real world may not be for you. I recommend that you spend more time with Nintendo.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Out of season, no licence, with an "illegal" weapon. IS POACHING no matter where you live."

Baloney.

"I NEVER said "animal cruelty", but she killed it with a SHOVEL ! Why did she not just try to "run it off", with said shovel. Then she would'nt be in this mess to begin with."

Cruelty charges were added by the prosecutor. I can't explain why. Perhaps it was the politician-neighbor.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"All this woman had to do is call the F@G to come get the fawn no her life was not in danger and what she did was against the law and she should be punished to the fullest extent of the law."

Obviously I don't agree. I can think of a thousand more important violations of the law that happen daily and are more worthy of investigation or prosecution. The woman's offense doesn't rise to the harm committed when someone illegally parks in a handicap parking space.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Callin the kettle black are'nt ya mike?"

Heck no. I try to keep the conversation away from this sort of thing, but I'll give pushback when someone's contribution to the thread is like your first post to me. There's no equivalence between us. You're a troll and you're sniveling.

"As far as I am concerned you are a pittifull human being and like big o said why dont you hunt with a shovel this season and let us know how it works out."

Because, and I'm sure a dimwit like you needs this explained, a gun works better than a shovel when hunting. And yeah, I know what you think of me. In my view, you're a waste of molecules and you've never had a single intelligent much less civil contribution to offer to a discussion.

"What would you do if your dog went on to someones yard and started to dig holes and the person who owned the house came out and clubed it to death?"

Where is the equivalence between a pet digging a hole and a wild animal? What I'd do is talk to the owner of the pet. If it did it again I'd call the dog pound. Running with your analogy for a moment, was it self obvious that the old lady should try to reason with the fawn's doe? Or are YOU the one who'd pay for pest removal on a neighbor's property?

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from Paul Wilke wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Mike I think you're an instigator but this has produce more laughs than I had for a long time. Thank you all, idiot and sensible alike.
In my neighborhood most animals bigger than a mouse are "game animals" and can only be killed legally in season and by approved tools.
There is no proper means to deal with unwanted wildlife, I can't legally live trap and move a raccoon that wants my garage as his own.
For that matter I can't legally feed squirrels in my own yard.
To remove an unwanted critter I must ask animal control for a live trap, I can set it and then call animal control to remove the critter for me. Given the time between a call and a response this would be animal cruelty in my opinion.
Like the old lady I've resorted to more efficient methods, however altho I'm just as illegal I'm much sneakier.

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from JohnR wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

In most states one is permitted to protect their lives and PROPERTY with the use of force and up to the use of deadly force to do so. For all of those screaming "poacher" it can be successfully argued (legally) that the deer was on her property, and destroying her property, she therefore acted in self defense of said property which is permitted under law.
One of the worst movies Disney ever created was Bambi.
Personally, I wouldn't have done what she did. For me, a simple "BOO" and "Get out of here" would have sufficed.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I think we all agree, Ken, that we would not handle it this way. I think you're reading alot into the story when you add adverbs like "slowly." It makes it sound like you agree with the nutbags who think she has "rage issues" and ought to be institutionalized.

My view is that rather than throwing in the charge of animal cruelty (which I suspect won't stand, because there's a world of difference between the people who just like to harm animals a la Michael Vick and this old lady), the correct LAW ENFORCEMENT response is something like this:

"Uh, hello miss. Listen, that's probably how they handled cases like this when you were a child but we'd prefer that you call animal control. Seeing an animal killed can be upsetting to the neighbors. Please don't do anything like this again."

But, as I have noted before in this thread, there seem to be LOTS of people who are now part of the culture of the perpetually enraged. Between the dork, and another fellow who implied that siding with her puts one in league with the nazis, I'd say that SANITY (judging by the company kept) is on my side of the argument.

But carry on. It's a big world with plenty of room for opinions.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Who's defeated?
Who's ingracious? I'm not the one handing out negative feedback for dissent, calling anyone a nazi, a piece of "crap," concocting psychological diagnoses about a 75 year old lady on the basis of something I've read in a headling, calling her other names, or demanding her institutionalization, or insisting she be charged with all manner of offenses that really don't fit the action.

Your criticism, along with all your haughty, arrogant, martinet pronouncements about my existentialness, are rejected en toto, and you are kindly invited to go jump off a bridge. With "all due respect" of course.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Thanks armchair OU. I suspect that liberal wussies and Big Gov't Nanny State intrusive busybodies are gonna continue to express their outrage by providing negative feedback. They are, of course, playing PETA's and HSUS "every animal is just like a person" card and ultimately the sportsmen going after her are just playing into the hands of anti-hunters who'd argue any form of deer death other than at the hands of wolves is "animal cruelty."

I'd take this old lady for a nieghbor any day over any of the self-righteous prigs hammering at her.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"Iddork? What are you mike 10?"

No, but I try to select language appropriate for the intellect of the person I'm addressing. "Juvenile" about describes you since you started your post with an fairly transparent insult. Most people are smart enough to recognize retaliation when they earn it, but you're obviously not that smart.

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from OrangeNeckInNY wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

She should have dragged it into the house, beat it to death in there and then butchered it for the meat. Hell, how much does a Granny make in social security payments? And she's probably on food stamps. She spends her money on nice flowers to make her property look good for the neighborhood and this doe has the nerve bed down and probably eat her flowers? Oh hell no. To penalize her for protecting her property??? You all who sided with the doe have really effed up priorities. What if it was YOUR grandma who is going to jail and fined $1000 (that she can't pay)? Who do you think she's going to try to hit up for that money?

The DEC is a joke, who can barge into your home without a search warrant and arrest you if you have untagged game meat in your freezer. What a big effing load of government intrusion into our lives.

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from kolbster wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I have to agree with Mike on this one.

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from Don Mitchell wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

My thanks go out to Miike Diehl and Rascal on this one, I feel the same way. My tomato plants and flower beds ar in shambels from the deer in my hood.

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from ingebrigtsen wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Yeah mike keep taking cutouts of other peoples arguments, totally out of context like u do it. keep beating this dead horse and see if u just use a shovel u can bring it back alive..
pathetic!
I rescind my previous statement that u may be a decent fella otherwise.. your obviously not, cos then u would be graceous in defeat..
just remember its the majority that makes the laws and your opinions ainth in majority! Luckily u r old and such caveman attitudes will die out with ya!!!

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from rascal wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I just fell a little bit in love with Mike Diehl.
My farming Grandma drove out varmits any way she needed to. When a neighbors pit bull jumped my fence and threatened me and my dog I let that neighbor know (and the HOA "mgmt" company) that if it EVER happened again I'd be pulling out and using my 40 caliber. Is that the same as a baby fawn? A pest is a pest, and a threat is a threat.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

We've crossed paths before, IDdork. In my view your willingness to intrude into every person's back yard is sort of at odds with your paranoia over the Federal government's management of Federal land. And as noted, I think anyone who'd make a moral equivalence between animals and people is the one who truly deserves to have their head examined. Lots of people, most of em conservatives, are glad to be my neighbor and to hunt with me. And no, that's not how I'd kill a vertebrate urban pest, if I had a problem with one.

So although I think you're two cards shy of a full deck, I'll pretend for a moment that you're capable of raional thought and ask you what you expected a 76 year old lady to do?

Was she supposed to shell out money for a license or a contractor to remove the deer? Contrary to some other poster's opinion, a fawn isn't "harmless" because if she'd tried to move it, there might be a confrontation between the old lady and the fawn's doe. That's assuming the old lady COULD actually move it. And where would she move it? Put it out by the mailbox? Put it in her car and drive it somewhere?

If she'd decided she'd rather shoot it, could you have guaranteed she'd not be charged under a local firearms discharge ordnance?

Or is it really your contention that deer in eastern urban areas are such a critical resource that every one of 'em needs to be protected, regardless of the damage they do to peoples' gardens? Bear in mind, in some towns it's almost as easy to find a deer as it is to find a pigeon.

I don't think you've thought this out very much. All I can say is that I don't have a problem with her actions. I don't think this makes her a psycho, a closet serial killer, or a poacher. I do think that all the people outraged over this are probably nosy busybodies who might not be good neighbors and really ought to get a life and a clue both at once.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

"bludgeoning a baby that crawls into your driveway??"

That's the problem with nanny state big gov people. No sense of proportionality or scale. You're making a moral equivalence between offing a garden pest and a human being. That simply affirms in my view that the people outraged over this have the intelligence of a bivalve.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

Anybody who'd charge her for it should be locked up in a mental institution if you ask me. Ultimately I'd look at her on one side as a neighbor who's a big threat to pests in her garden. Anyone who'd rat her out has the heart of an East German secret police informant. Anyone who'd charge her with a crime over it has the IQ of a quahog.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 4 years 41 weeks ago

I think she should get a commendation and a blue ribbon from the 4H club and the American Horticultural Society for innovative use of nonchemical pest control.

"Animal abuse" is one of the stupidist leftwingnut PC freakshow arenas of intrusive big nanny state power expansion of the last couple decades. I won't be surprised when I hear about some poor damned yankee charged with animal cruelty for boiling a lobster, or some louisianan for eating a raw oyster with some kind of cocktail sauce.

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