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Petzal: On Tracking and Losing Game

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September 24, 2009

Petzal: On Tracking and Losing Game

By David E. Petzal

Those of you who saw my half-hour on the Outdoor Channel heard me claim that I had never lost a head of game that I had shot. This is true, but what I did not have time to add was that, on at least three occasions, if I had not had expert help, I would have. What I’ve learned about tracking hit animals is: Get down on your hands and knees and crawl if you have to and don’t give up.

Very often even a fatal wound will result in very small drops of blood falling very infrequently, and unless you have extraordinary eyesight you’ll miss them unless you get down on the ground and look at every leaf, twig, and blade of grass. When you do find blood, mark it with surveyor’s tape. After a while, a trail will emerge. (And if you think that blue light will show up blood in the outdoors, you can’t prove it by me.)

Fatally-hit animals can go astonishing distances and/or get themselves into spots where it’s almost impossible to locate them. Years ago in Alabama, Wayne van Zwoll shot a nice whitetail buck that ran off. Wayne began tracking it at noon, and worked on the trail through the rest of the day and into the night, then picked it up the next morning and stayed with it until evening when he finally found the animal.

Even with that kind of effort it doesn’t always work out. About ten years ago in Africa a friend shot an eland that we followed for two and a half days, dawn to dark. Its trail showed that it was eating and drinking, and after a while there was no blood at all, so the trackers said that it would recover from whatever damage had been done to it and we gave up the search.

Comments (72)

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from Albert A Rasch wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Absolutely true!

The lower you get, the more likely it is you will see the traces of the animals passing. I've had to, more than a few times, get on my hands and knees to figure out which way to go.

Regards,
Albert
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
The Failure of PeTA's Moral Position

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from SD_Whitetail_Hntr wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

That's why I love it when there's snow on the ground during season. Archery is where my tracking skills get put to the test. Been lucky so far and been able to track good blood right to the downed animal.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

First of all Dave the only problem with that show?

It was to short!!

I caught the show from start to end except for a few brief moments my German Shorthair wanted some loving jumping up on the side of my recliner putting her head in my chest.

I’ve only lost two deer in my life and it was because I fail into the idea expandable broad heads are suppose to be good, NOT! And never again will I use them so sticking to my 3 bladed 100 grain Muzzy’s and the tracking is short!

Coops Bottom line on this subject of loss game,

There are two reason hunters’ loose game, one is to poorly placed shots and second probably foremost poor bullet choice. A poorly placed shot is self exclamatory so I don’t need to go there. Poor bullet choice is one of the biggest problems I know of. Everyone believes you must use a heavy grain bullet for taking deer. Take the 7mm Mags with 175 grain and 30 Cal’s with 180’s. These bullet weights are actually too heavy for a sure kill. They lack the velocity to create sufficient hydrostatic shock to do lung tissue damage and that’s why my 22-250 does such a fine job. For 7mm/284 Cal’s for mule deer I’d use a 120 to a 139 grain and 30 cal 130’s to 165’s. Speaking of 30 Cal’s for 308 to 30 Cal Mag’s and I flat out love the Hornady 130 grain soft point, they shoot flat and hit hard with terrific hydrostatic shock and penetration and also doubles as a fantastic coyote load. Using a load that doubles as both a varmint load and deer load really gives you plenty of trigger time to perfect those “MOP” shots you have been dreamed about at long ranges! Another advantage of a lighter bullet is less recoil thus reducing the flinch factor!!

Another I didn't cover, wait time after the shot!

While hunting in New Mexico in Buck Canyon near Weed, one of the guys who came up with us shot a nice buck 3 times with his 7mm Rem Mag with 175 grain. After shooting 4 times he turned to me a yelled he was out of ammo and I was too far to hand him my rifle so I downed the buck with one shot out about 500-600 yards with my 22-250 with a Hornady 55 grain soft point. After field dressing the buck, the lung cavity looked like a bomb went off from my 22-250 and the 7mm hits looked as if were

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Moosed up!

While hunting in New Mexico in Buck Canyon near Weed, one of the guys who came up with us shot a nice buck 3 times with his 7mm Rem Mag with 175 grain. After shooting 4 times he turned to me a yelled he was out of ammo and I was too far to hand him my rifle so I downed the buck with one shot out about 500-600 yards with my 22-250 with a Hornady 55 grain soft point. After field dressing the buck, the lung cavity looked like a bomb went off from my 22-250 and the 7mm hits looked as if were shot with Full Metal Jacketed bullets even though shot placement wasn’t exactly great the lack of bullet failure was to blame.

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from RJ Arena wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

For me, tracking in palmettos is the toughest, seems to hide blood and tracks. I agree with all that said placement, it is like the old real estate mantra, location, location, location!

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from Bruce E. Matthews wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Agreed--except the older I get the more resistance to getting down where you need to be! The other thing is looking closely in places where the animal might brush along a tree or shrub, or weed stems. Watch the ground too much and you miss what sometimes is the only blood--what smeared off when the animal brushed past something shoulder high.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Amen, Brother Petzal

Shots too long, bullets that are inadequate, pi$$ poor shot placement, calibers not suited for the game at hand, inadequate tracking skils, and too much testosterone are the main reasons hunters lose game.

If you can't hit where it counts, you best become an expert tracker! But that is not likely since the poor shooters tend not to put anymore effort into tracking skills than shooting practice. The last time I spent all day tracking several years ago, I swore it would never happen again and it hasn't. A double lung/heart shot animal is not going far, regardless of what any of the experts on here or elsewhere claim. You let the air out of an elk and he is not going far, period. I wait until I am confident of a lethal shot.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Clay, the 175 grain 7mm bullets were obviously too slow at the range fired at the deer to initiate expansion. The 22-250 was probably going plenty fast enough at that range. I would advise against that on elk, however.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Amen to getting down on your hands and knees and having lot's of patience with all the expert help you can get. Being old, my eye sight is not what it used to be, so I try not to take long shots to prevent wounding or having to track while not seeing well.

Having made excuses for my poor eye sight, I had an experience in 2002 that makes me chuckle. While hunting South Africa, I squeezed a 300 yard off the sticks at a nice Kudu and was rewarded with the sound of a solid hit, the animal winced and lunged out of sight. It was traveling in heavy cover with a large group of kudu. The trackers cheered and went running. By the time I hobbled over they were sorting out a multitude of tracks running everywhere with no sign of blood. I tried to tell the PH I thought I had fired about 80 yards farther away near a big tree. He told me to keep back so the trackers could do their job. I walked over to were I thought I had fired and sat down. After some time had passed, the PH shouted to ask if I was OK and began walk over to me. As he approached he started laughing, put out his hand, and said it was a pleasure to hunt with me. . . I was sitting on the dead Kudu.

.

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from buckhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

As a bowhunter I need to track nearly everything I shoot. I hate open grassy fields. Circling the last spot of blood is the best advice I could give someone who has a lost blood trail.

My brother in law shot a nice deer a couple years back. He said he center punched it in the kitchen or in normal terms double lunged it.

We tracked that deer for over 1 mile (as the crow flys) for a time period totaling 10 hours. We found him bedded in a creek bottom where we put the finall arrow in him from 10 feet away.

It turns out my brother in law shot the buck in the back leg just above the knee severing the artery in one leg and breaking the bone in the other. It was no doubt the worse shot I have ever seen on any animal...but it was recovered.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Happy,

Stories like that make my day. That stuff needs to be recorded for posterity's sake. I think a lot of folks would enjoy reading about it.

Regards,

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from jmiles wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

As we learn here in the south shooting in big bean fields you have to be acurate and shoot a fast flat shooting round. Shot placement is key and everyone likes heart lung but as I practice and Kenny Jarret says. Shoot them in the front shoulder and beak both shoulders. Cant go anywhere without front wheels and you get lungs in the process. I have tried this all over the country and it is never failed on witetails, mulies or antelope.

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Happy Myles, thanks for the good story.

Dave, thanks for the good subject. You can never learn too much about tracking. When all else fails check all the local water sources. Wounded animals tend to get very thirsty. Several times I have found deer in a pond or creek after completely losing the blood trail. In 49 years of hunting I have lost only 2 animals.

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from JOHN ANDERSON wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

HAPPY MYLES,Iagree with sgaredneck!I to had a simular situation duck hunting,The fellow i was hunting with made a wonderful double on a pair of mallards, he found the farthest rather easy.But could not find the second.As there is not much political correctness in our group he became irriatated.in his search for the second bird.I finaly crossed the creek we were hunting to aid him. there at my foot,creek side was his,duck.He had them turned a round in the order of his shot.

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from MLH wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Well, there were a couple wounded squirrels that made it back into their trees and some grouse that even the dogs couldn't find. Lucky for me that bigger game, like my car keys, were always in the last place I looked.

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from shane wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I find it disturbing that some need to be told this. I have bled my own blood crawling through Godknowswhat looking for blood. My intense nature and success rate has made me the go to tracker among my circle if I'm available. I consider this a blessing, helping a friend find their animal feels almost as good as shooting my own.

I agree on the blue and whatever else lights; they are borderline useless in the field. Might be great on some boring CSI show, but there aren't twigs and leaves with blood red blotches that aren't blood on their sets. I find the best light to be one with nice warm, natural looking light the best to my eye. Even most of the bright LED models have the tiniest blue twinge to them, and that screws me up.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Actually, the Kudu story had a little more to it. The PH said let's continue the joke. He sat down next to me, then called to the boys telling them to work our way. They reluctantly did so looking constantly at the ground at about 20 yards one of them stiffened, spotting blood for the first time he pointed at the ground and whispered to the others and they all crept forward. At last, 10 feet away they looked up and realized we were sitting on the deceased animal. They roared with laughter, these people love a good joke, even if it is on them. We could all learn from that.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Interesting topic, and timely considering the impending fall seasons. I have to agree with jmiles, if you take out a front shoulder, no animal is going far. Also, it gives you more of a miss factor, as a shot placed slightly back of the shoulder will get heart and lungs, or slightly forward will break a neck. I like to aim at the small wrinkle where the shoulder breaks the hide on a deer. Meat loss with 165 gr. Nosler
Ballistic Tips is minor, even if you get both shoulders, which is a definite "bang-flop".

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from snowninja wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Maybe i just don't hunt enough, but i've never lost an animal. Maybe i need to go hunting more. That's it, that should work on the wife...

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

@JOHN ANDERSON

The word is "BACK"! Send in the dog!

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from Mark-1 wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I thought I was a decent tracker until I saw a real tracker, a German Jagermeister in Swabia. That guy could track a mouse that wandered across a parking lot.

BTW Europeans seem to use big caliber solid bullets that blow through big game on the theory the animal will always die. Of course, a gifted tracker is always in tow.

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from bluecollarkid wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

In re. the blue lights - you have to spray the area being lighted (lit?) with a "highlighting" solution before the "blue light" will highlight the blood. The solution attaches itself to the blood (or it may attach to any liquid) in the saturated cover and glows when the blue light hits it.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Only once in more than 20 years of hunting have i had to track an animal that i did not recover. I found no blood, hair or sign of a hit, but i was sure i hit him. I found only scuffed ground, leaves turned over, and a scattered trail of excrement. I waited a half hour after what i thought was a good shot, though offhand ,at 70 yds with my '06. He was quartering away walking in fading light. I was hunting alone about a mile in. Immediately into my search, at dusk, i jumped the buck, which i had thought had run off. I backed out to return the next morning. I searched all morning by myself, and with the help of my dad all afternoon. His tracks and trail of feces led us into a swamp where it was quickly lost. We scanned the area fore and aft for hours to no avail. It is a very humbling experience for me. I suspect he was gutshot and will not take the moving shot again even at that relatively close range, especially offhand. I was a younger and dumber man at that time. I hope that buck made it but i suspect he may not have. If only i could have that shot back...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter the Fella using the 7mm Rem Mag with 175 grain bullets hit the deer 3 times finished his fourth round before the Buck was 150 yards out! It wasn't until the Buck came up on the other side of Buck canyon were I could make the shot

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

From Clays archives of bookmarks, places, information and things to read

ken.mcloud said it best!

“So, I think that the superior killing power of larger rounds is largely in our heads.(likely testosterone induced) A flat-shooting round that you can accurately place will produce as many if not more "bang-flop" kills as a heavy caliber round.”

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from PbHead wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

This is a great thread. My best tracking advice is to stay with it. When I hear people claim that they followed a good blood trail for yards, miles, hours or whatever, then it stopped, so they gave up, it makes me sick. The animal most likely bled out and is within 50 yards of where they gave up.

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from jbird wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I'm colorblind, so sparse blood trails are hell on me in certain light. I get down low, and don't hesitate to call a friend. I think you become a better hunter after you lose an animal.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

By the way Remington has come out with a 125 grain bullet for there 30 Remington AR.

30 Remington® AR

Hits Like a .308. Carries Like a 223.
Now for the first time, Remington brings you 30 caliber hunting performance in a lightweight R-15 modular repeating rifle. Our new 30 Remington AR catridge produces big-game-dropping ballistics similar to the venerable 308 Win. with pressures perfectly suited to our lightweight R-15 platform. Comparable terminal power was once only available in the heavier AR-10 platform.

125 grain at 2278 fps and Remington says "Hits Like a .308. Carries Like a 223", is BS!

I can push a 130 grain Hornady out of my 30-06 at 3300 fps just as fast a 55 grain out of a 223!

GO FIGURE!

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

The biggest thing I see with people is they start tracking way to quickly and give up too soon, that and they look only on the ground and not at small brush and grasses.

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Here's a little good news from Kansas. Today i went to Cabela's planning to buy a new pop up blind and a pair of upland hunting boots. Got the boots (great deal too) and went over to look at blinds. only a moment later 3 guys wearing ties came by spoke and soon we had us a conversation going. When I mentioned the boys we have been mentoring and the fact that my old Eastman blind was a POS and that I wanted to buy a new blind one of the big wigs said bring the old blind in and they would swap it out. Well that blind is 3 or 4 years old and I really didn't expect you to take it back. He said no problem pick any blind you want it's the least we can do for a guy thats passing the tradition on. Later in the afternoon Wesley and yours truly set the new Michael Waddell bone collector blind. Just about sundown 2 nice young bucks came by and Wesley dropped the best one in his tracks. Yep, I told him to break the shoulders. He did a nice job on that little 7 pointer. I got home about 10 pm. Wesley is still on cloud nine. The pics will be on my profile page in a few minutes. Thanks to everyone that helped and a big shout out to the boys at Cabela's.

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from elmer f. wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

yep, been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. LOL! more years ago that i want to remember, my wife shot a really nice 8 point buck. she shot it at roughly 40 yards, with a 30-30 right in the boiler room. we waited a half hour, and began out search. we walked right to the spot where she had shot it, you could see the footprints, and how it spun around, and went tearing back for cover. about 15 feet later, we found blood, GOOD BLOOD, not a few drops. it was obvious that she hit the deer well. roughly 50 yards in, we found a spotwhere the buck had laid down, the blood spot on the ground was about 4' in diameter. then it got back up and went deeper in the woods. i told my wife, that we should sit down for another hour, and make sure he had a chance to die in peace, instead of driving him deeper and deeper into the woods. so we did, and in the meantime, i shot, killed, and dressed another deer. when we resumed our trail, it had only gone another 40 - 50 yards before it laid back down. the blood spot was smaller, only about 2 foot in diameter and still leaving a trail when it got up and left. it did this 3 more times. then, the blood trail turned into a drop here, and one there. eventually, we ran out of blood. we searched and searched for about an hour, my wife was about to give up. but i knew the deer was dead, and we needed to retrieve it. i looked at where the trail had been going, and noticed a large old apple tree about 100 yards in side a fence line. i figured that that may have been a favorite spot for him through his life, so i climbed the fence, and went looking. sure enough, about 20 feet short of the apple tree, there he was. now, the only trouble was that he was on a private hunting club's private property. i looked around, and could see no one to ask, so i and my wife quickly dragged the deer back across the fence, guts and all. when we were roughly 50 yards inside the right side of the fence, we gutted him, and went and got the truck. that, was a LONG, HARD day! but ohhh, so worth it! oh yeah, the buck went almost a mile, and the shot was through one lung, and the heart, clipping the front leg on the far side. tell me that they dont have the will to survive!

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from nunyabinis wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Shoot deer. Deer runs off. Go get your Bluetick Coonhound. Show hound which direction deer ran and tell hound to "go get him". Within five minutes you've located your deer and pretty soon you're back at the clubhouse drinking bourbon and listening to country music while your wife dresses the deer.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Since Clay called BS on Remington's "new" round, I thought I might as well throw a flag on the Hornady/Marlin play as well. They claim that a .338 Marlin is somehow a new hotrod cartridge.

Claims Hornady, "... the FTX bullet at an amazing 2,565 fps from a 24" Marlin XLR. The bullet has a B.C. of .430 and matches 180 grain 30-06 ballistics in terms of energy and trajectory out to 400 yards."

That is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard. If that bullet has a BC of .430, I'll eat my hat. What are they comparing it to, a 180 gr roundnose SP with a BC of .241? No way that bullet performs equal to a 180 grain BTSP with a BC of .425 started at 2,700 fps or better with handloads. Another smoke and mirrors job from Hornady.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter'
I have often written on these pages...Ballistics is a science, not witchcraft.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Happy Miles

Agreed. I work in a world where sales and marketing (witchcraft, smoke and mirrors) types routinely let their alligator mouths promise things to customers that their hummingbird butts can't deliver with FAA certification (science and engineering). Too bad to be the FAA's bad guy musch of the time!

I have three words that I use to quiet their whining as to why they can't have it their way: "I hate it". Meaning: Too bad, so sad, but that's the way it's going to be.

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from duckcreekdick wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Re: Nunyabinis hit the nail on the head. Here we are farting around looking for tiny specks of blood, when a good trail dog could do the job in five minutes. A damn shame most game departments do not allow the use of dogs in hunting big game. That little Jack Russell terrier (Tuffy)of Greg Rodriguez's never met a hog he couldn't track.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Blow a decent hole clean through a deer and you will not have to look far. Follow the garden hose sized blood trail.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

By the way the new 30 Remington® AR is nothing more than a American reconstituted version of the AK47!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I m,ay not know makes and models like David, but I do know my cartridges!!!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I am disappointed by Remington's claims in their catalog, too. I expected better from the maker of half of my favorite rifles.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken $h1^!

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from nunyabinis wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

From duckcreekdick: "Nunyabinis hit the nail on the head. Here we are farting around looking for tiny specks of blood, when a good trail dog could do the job in five minutes."

**************************************

Not to mention all the love and affection that Bluetick bestows and how toasty she keeps your feet on cold winter nights while laying across the foot of your bed. You can't beat that with a stick!!!

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from buckhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del,
That young man will never forget that day as well as you. I am a firm believer that no good deed goes unnoticed. Your (our) best hope is that Wesley returns your kindness to a young hunter 50 years from now. I can hear Wesley now, "When I was a young man I had to honor of knowing a man named Del..."

May god Bless you, your family and friends.

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter, I just talked to Wes' mom on the phone about boot size and she said he was so excited he did not sleep a wink all night.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del, I know you are basking in your earthly rewards right now, but just think of the rewards you'll receive in Heaven for mentoring this young man! PTL

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

And thanks for allowing some of us to be a tiny part of that, too.

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from Gritz wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Unfortunately, for a lot of hunters who are hunting very small tracts of land between private properties, the ability for game to travel means that we have to be even more sure of a good, clean shot. I often hunt along a busy stretch of four lane freeway that cut my father's farm in half. Usually, those deer, if they can get over the fence, will. So it is important to get a position that allows for a knockdown or at least a devastating blow. Even so, there are times when boundaries result in losing wounded game from time to time. That is why it is good to have a relationship with those around you and have their numbers on your phone in case you need to go in right away.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

sorry Charley, getting down and crawling through these Ky. woods on opening day is "Not Smart"

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I was just getting ready to tell Dave to shoot the Rem.700 in .308 and not track any critters...

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del, I can just imagine Dave crawling through the brush with his grunt call in his mouth and a white hankie in his hip pocket....

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from JOHN ANDERSON wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WAMhunter,Youd of had to been there.The fellow,well he was one of those guys.

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from Carney wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Dave Petzal. Better pull up a chair.

Last night I had a dream and you managed to saunter your way into it. In my dream my wife and I were somewhere in a little town in the southwest and were attending some kind of shooting / self defence school. As dreams are usually whacky, it seemed like we were living in several different eras all at the same time -- old western; modern and sort of the '50's era. You fit mostly into the 50's era...

As it turned out you were brought in to be the trainer for one of our classes. When you arrived from the airport, we met you at the saloon. You got your room, dinner and more than a few drinks... Since you arrived on Saturday evening, you had to hold over through Sunday for the class on Monday. You were sort of bothered that "this was your life" but you were willing to go along with it. Apparently you traveled in regularly for the training as all the regular people knew who you were and what you were there for.

In this little town, everyone went to church on Sunday. It was sort of like going to church in "Little House on the Prairie" or something. You dutifully showed up at church, sat in the last pew, in the last seat; which I perceived to be your way of saying, "I'm 'in' but not 'really in'". You decided that you wanted to sing a song for the congregation and since you were known by the whole town, you were allowed to proceed. So from your seat, you sang a parody of an old timey hymn. It was filled with euphemisms, innuendo, and double entendre but if one wasn't listening to the words it just sounded like an old timey hymn, sung with passion from a tolerable voice. I was standing near two little old ladies who were basking in the moment, obviously moved by your passion, nodding their heads in agreement as you bellowed forth. They looked like they felt fortunate to have been there for your song.

I looked at the old ladies and thought to myself, "They have no idea what he's really saying." And then I woke up.

There you have it. I don't know anything about tracking wounded game. Yet.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

carney, I told you about eating pizza just before bedtime....

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Carney,
What kind of 'shrooms were on that pizza????
Did you have the strange urge to put on an Allman Brothers CD the next day?

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

Would of been nice instead of the Remington AR in 30 Cal would have been in 6.5mm Grendel!!! We don't need another cartridge that duplicates the 7.62x39mm (AK47 round). Kinda like when they came out with the WSSM's, they just reinvented the wheel to only look like a really "BAD ASS CASE" to cost more without improving the performance! I've also herd the WSM's and WSSM's are having feeding problems do to the fatter (larger diameter) case.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Clay,
I agree on the 6.5 Grendel. It would be bigger than it is now, but my understanding of it is that Alexander Arms (the proprietor of that cartridge) is all about the $$$. They have only certain manufacturers licensed to produce uppers or complete guns besides themselves, and are restrictive on who is doing the ammo. They've been politicking the 6.5 against the 6.8 Rem SPC II, (now in its second revision)and I think losing even though it looks like to me they have a better round there. I guess time will tell about the 6.8 Rem SPC(rev??) and the 6.5 Grendel.

Remington was hyping the .30 AR at the last SHOT show but I didn't see one ready to go. In my book don't talk about it if you don't have it to show ready to go.

I disagree on the WSMs. At least in my experience the .270WSM I own (and a .300WSM that I have spent a goodly amount of time with) have never failed to load, fire, eject, or cycle ever in my presence with my handloads or factory ammunition. I can't speak for the WSSM's. I do think their day in the sun is drawing to a close.

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Uh Will, I mean Clay, the way I remember it there was 3 of them bucks had the drop on you at 900 yds and you hauled out your pistol and blew them all away. I know, I know, you ain't like that anymore. Oops had Coop mixed up with Clint playing Will Munny or was it ol' Elmer? I can't remember, yuk,yuk. Lord, and Clay Please forgive me for saying that. Just saw some simularities. Really do wish I could shoot like you Coop.

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from KJ wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I like to carry a little spray bottle with some hydrogen peroxide in it to help if the blood trail gets hard to find. The peroxide really bubbles up when it comes in contact with the blood. It's not foolproof, but it has helped a couple of times. Might come in helpful on some of those trail jobs after a 500 yard shot.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del surely Clay does not tell some "Tall Ones" ? We all know that NONCOMS dont tell War stories! Heh Heh

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Well maybe Jack O'Connor "Stretched the truth" once in a while!

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from Carney wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Sarg & Sgaredneck,

I asked for "portobello mushrooms". They thought I said, "portoPetzal mushrooms". But their mistake was not nearly as bad as if they'd thought I'd said, "portoBella mushrooms"!

(Sorry Bella... Couldn't resist.)

And now that you bring up the Allman Brothers Band, maybe I'd "normalize" if just quit listening to that stuff...

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Carney- don't go changing for our sake! I LMAO on what you put down there. That was a little bizarre, but 100% hilarious.

On a different note I went to a class 3 shoot this past weekend and one of the vehicles there had a big 'Allman Brothers Band' sticker on the back window. I was happily surprised. I drove back home after it with Fillmore East blasting.....

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from shane wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Love those Brothers.

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from Carney wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Sgaredneck:

I was hoping to give DP a chance to crinkle his forehead and think, "what the heck was that?!?!" with my bizarre post... I bet it worked.

I cut my teeth playing drums with the Allman Brothers LP's. Amazing how that stuff can stick in your head -- I sang the entire guitar solo when they played "Jessica" on the oldies station while driving a few weeks ago; my kids were even impressed!

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

DEP was probably just shaking his head. It hung me up too. LOL

Here's another aside from asides. It's a small, small world we live in. My Dad just a few days ago was at a seminar relating to habitat & wildlife ecology at Chuck Leavell's plantation south of Macon. For those of you that don't know, Chuck is a world-class musician with too many credits to list, but he is also a HUGE supporter of Bobwhite Quail habitat and forestry practices. And a damn nice fellow too. There's your 'Jessica' tie-in.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

We'll get back to tracking wounded game directly here.

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from Carney wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

SGA = Yeah, Charlane Plantation.

Here's a clip of Chuck giving a little history and teaching on the song Jessica
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qK84Q1C-JI

OK. Back to tracking.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Come-on guys, Daves trying to be serious here...But don't craw through these Ky. woods on opening day Dave. Now Dell has probly crawled through some fields showing those bird dogs how to point.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Nah, that dog won't hunt.....

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Sorry but Jill was a "Natural" no crawling needed. The puppies have opened their eyes and first thing they did was point mama's titties

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

sgaredneck I got the wrong job I do! Back in the 7o's I remember talking about taking the 223 and necking it out to 25 or better yet 264. Back in the 70's my favorite Turkey Shoot rifle is a Carl Gustaf Stads Gevarsfaktori 6.5x55 Swedish Naval Carbine with a 16ish barrel. Knowing what the 6.5 will do especially the 264 Win Mag I knew first hand! If the folks at Grindel are going to withheld the chambering, I would go with taking the 223 and punch it out to 257 cal!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

If I was going to introduce a new rifle cartridge, I would reintroduce the 264 Win Mag with an improved barrel for longer life expectancy and that is what killed this fine cartridge! A 140 grain in a 264 Win Mag? Awesome long range performance over the others!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Hey Del in KS and Moishe, you guys crack me up! We got to do a hunt some time!!

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I've been curious about the .30RemAR as well. I've read some reviews which read like copy. The .308 they're referring to is Remington's own .308 Managed Recoil. If only they mentioned that very clearly in the ad.

Knowing this is Remington talking, they'd probably overhype it, and then, as usual, underload it.

Clay Cooper, to be fair, the .30RemAR, at least on paper, has better ballistics han 7.62x39. It's faster than the AK round, and marginally faster than 6.8SPC too. BUT IT HAS A FAT CASE which greatly reduces magazine capacity. If this is going to be a military round, it's not ideal for the AR platform, even though it fits the magazine. As one reviewer said, gun designers are obsessed with the dimensions of the AR-15 magazine and are therefore building (and limiting) their rifles and cartridges around it, ironically, that magazine is one of the weakest links in the AR-15.

There seems to be a war going on between the 6.5Grendel and 6.8SPC camps, much like the bitter war between gunwriters who expected the ".220Swift" to be based on the .250Savage case and Winchester, who dared to choose a different case (6mmNavy). If you read the website of Land Warfare Resources, they even tout the 6.8 as developed by warfighters for warfighters. And the Grendel was not? Looks to me like another case of "not invented... by us"

But I think just like VHS vs. Betamax, it will be a question of who adopts what more. I think the 6.8 is ahead there. Especially if it's true Alexander is withholding its 6.5.

Oh BTW, Remington gets in the AR business with DPMS and Bushmaster, and even acquires the formely Magpul MASADA, and Ruger answers with its piston-driven SR-556. Let the debates begin.

Direct gas impingement vs. Short stroke piston?
If piston, is it LWRC or LMT or POF-USA? Or maybe since cost is an object, why not Ruger's SR-556? After all, Ruger always finds a way to make products cost less than the competition. (Actually, right now, the LMT, POF and Ruger piston-driven ARs cost about the same - $2,000.00)

How about Robinson's XCR?

Or why not just heed the wisdom from 100 years ago (when the US military copied the Mauser in the form of the 1903 Springfield) and adopt the H&K G36?

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I think the only thing about the M-16 that I don't like is the piston in the bolt thing. I saw an ad on the Black rifles for hunting with a 30 round banana clip. Come guys, why a 30 round clip?

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Hey Del, with a 30 round clip, you and I could have a chance at hitting a Deer.... (Joking of course).

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del, how about a thirty round clip in that bird gun?

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Clay,
Like every great idea anyone's had, someone probably went down that path before. Wes Ugalde came up with 6mm, .25, 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 caliber rounds made from the parent .223 case. The biggest hitch is that the TCU rounds for the most part are too long OAL to work in an AR magazine or action (O Garcia,you are so right). I have long looked at making a 7mm TCU upper for an AR(supposedly J.D. Jones will make one and has made them), but most bullets are too long to make the cartridge work. You'd have to cut the case back some.

O Garcia,
I attended a shoot this past weekend where Remington/Bushmaster had a presence. They had the (revamped version of the Magpul Masada there) Bushmaster
ACR there. They actually raffled one off to benefit the Wounded Warrior Project. That mostly made up for my annoyance with the .30AR thing.
As for Alexander Arms and the 6.5 Grendel it looked to me like a case of Remington having more pull and lobbying $$$. Most every way I look at it the 6.5 appears to be superior. LWRC just makes stuff to sell. I think if the 6.5 Grendel was in the lead they'd be saying it was "made by warfighters for warfighters.

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I agree with Clay especially about the 6.5 Grendel and as for the 30 cal and other calibers vs OAL? To coin a phrase,, GO FIGURE!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

High Performing Accurate and Economical Cartridges interest me the most. I don’t see a need to come out with new cartridges; they just need a load that performs! The Remington 30 AR sounds like a nice rifle to own and shooting a 125 grain sounds great.

So what about 125 or better yet a 130 grain loading shooting 223 Velocities, flat shooting, lower recoil and will drop the biggest Mule Deer without any problem. In my 30-06 I’ve been shooting 130 Grain Hornady’s with 54 grains of IMR4064 for 43 years and never lost any deer White Tail or Mule Deer and doubles as the perfect Coyote load giving you more trigger time honing your skills and come Deer Season no need to change bullets!

I have not found a single person who tried my load on deer who didn’t like it, in fact they LOVED IT!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Hey sarg instead of Del with a 30 round Mag for his shotgun, how about a “AA” Gauge Shotgun with a bore diameter of 4 inches

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I'm gonna stick with 28 ga for upland and 12 for eveything else. All that ammo would be more than this ol' back could carry.

Sarg, you hang on to that 30 round mag it might come in handy some day if we have to fight again.

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from Cgull wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I've had to get on hands and knees before, it does help these old eyes find those smaller droplets of blood.One these days I'm gonna command Snickers to become a blood trailing, retriever, rabbit and shed hunting dog.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

In the latest issue of F&S, I noticed that a picture of a Nosler Partition had no tip? It looked like a Swift A-Frame to me. David, did your photo ed moose up?

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from sarg wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Clay, I bet Dell has a .203 launcher under that 28 Ga.... Never know when you find a covey on the ground.. Move the dog first Del.

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from micko77 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Sad to say it, but I've lost two well-hit deer that crossed fences into property where no one was permitted to hunt or recover game---corporate policy. I don't hunt there anymore. I always carry at ;east a half-roll of toilet paper in my fanny pack, partly for the obvious reason, but it is also very useful in placing it on blood droplets to help figure out where a deer is headed, or at least be able to pick up the last place I could confirm his presence.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Amen to getting down on your hands and knees and having lot's of patience with all the expert help you can get. Being old, my eye sight is not what it used to be, so I try not to take long shots to prevent wounding or having to track while not seeing well.

Having made excuses for my poor eye sight, I had an experience in 2002 that makes me chuckle. While hunting South Africa, I squeezed a 300 yard off the sticks at a nice Kudu and was rewarded with the sound of a solid hit, the animal winced and lunged out of sight. It was traveling in heavy cover with a large group of kudu. The trackers cheered and went running. By the time I hobbled over they were sorting out a multitude of tracks running everywhere with no sign of blood. I tried to tell the PH I thought I had fired about 80 yards farther away near a big tree. He told me to keep back so the trackers could do their job. I walked over to were I thought I had fired and sat down. After some time had passed, the PH shouted to ask if I was OK and began walk over to me. As he approached he started laughing, put out his hand, and said it was a pleasure to hunt with me. . . I was sitting on the dead Kudu.

.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Actually, the Kudu story had a little more to it. The PH said let's continue the joke. He sat down next to me, then called to the boys telling them to work our way. They reluctantly did so looking constantly at the ground at about 20 yards one of them stiffened, spotting blood for the first time he pointed at the ground and whispered to the others and they all crept forward. At last, 10 feet away they looked up and realized we were sitting on the deceased animal. They roared with laughter, these people love a good joke, even if it is on them. We could all learn from that.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Clay, the 175 grain 7mm bullets were obviously too slow at the range fired at the deer to initiate expansion. The 22-250 was probably going plenty fast enough at that range. I would advise against that on elk, however.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Happy,

Stories like that make my day. That stuff needs to be recorded for posterity's sake. I think a lot of folks would enjoy reading about it.

Regards,

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from jmiles wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

As we learn here in the south shooting in big bean fields you have to be acurate and shoot a fast flat shooting round. Shot placement is key and everyone likes heart lung but as I practice and Kenny Jarret says. Shoot them in the front shoulder and beak both shoulders. Cant go anywhere without front wheels and you get lungs in the process. I have tried this all over the country and it is never failed on witetails, mulies or antelope.

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Happy Myles, thanks for the good story.

Dave, thanks for the good subject. You can never learn too much about tracking. When all else fails check all the local water sources. Wounded animals tend to get very thirsty. Several times I have found deer in a pond or creek after completely losing the blood trail. In 49 years of hunting I have lost only 2 animals.

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from jbird wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I'm colorblind, so sparse blood trails are hell on me in certain light. I get down low, and don't hesitate to call a friend. I think you become a better hunter after you lose an animal.

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from nunyabinis wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Shoot deer. Deer runs off. Go get your Bluetick Coonhound. Show hound which direction deer ran and tell hound to "go get him". Within five minutes you've located your deer and pretty soon you're back at the clubhouse drinking bourbon and listening to country music while your wife dresses the deer.

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from Happy Myles wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter'
I have often written on these pages...Ballistics is a science, not witchcraft.

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from SD_Whitetail_Hntr wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

That's why I love it when there's snow on the ground during season. Archery is where my tracking skills get put to the test. Been lucky so far and been able to track good blood right to the downed animal.

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from MLH wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Well, there were a couple wounded squirrels that made it back into their trees and some grouse that even the dogs couldn't find. Lucky for me that bigger game, like my car keys, were always in the last place I looked.

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from crm3006 wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Interesting topic, and timely considering the impending fall seasons. I have to agree with jmiles, if you take out a front shoulder, no animal is going far. Also, it gives you more of a miss factor, as a shot placed slightly back of the shoulder will get heart and lungs, or slightly forward will break a neck. I like to aim at the small wrinkle where the shoulder breaks the hide on a deer. Meat loss with 165 gr. Nosler
Ballistic Tips is minor, even if you get both shoulders, which is a definite "bang-flop".

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

By the way Remington has come out with a 125 grain bullet for there 30 Remington AR.

30 Remington® AR

Hits Like a .308. Carries Like a 223.
Now for the first time, Remington brings you 30 caliber hunting performance in a lightweight R-15 modular repeating rifle. Our new 30 Remington AR catridge produces big-game-dropping ballistics similar to the venerable 308 Win. with pressures perfectly suited to our lightweight R-15 platform. Comparable terminal power was once only available in the heavier AR-10 platform.

125 grain at 2278 fps and Remington says "Hits Like a .308. Carries Like a 223", is BS!

I can push a 130 grain Hornady out of my 30-06 at 3300 fps just as fast a 55 grain out of a 223!

GO FIGURE!

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Here's a little good news from Kansas. Today i went to Cabela's planning to buy a new pop up blind and a pair of upland hunting boots. Got the boots (great deal too) and went over to look at blinds. only a moment later 3 guys wearing ties came by spoke and soon we had us a conversation going. When I mentioned the boys we have been mentoring and the fact that my old Eastman blind was a POS and that I wanted to buy a new blind one of the big wigs said bring the old blind in and they would swap it out. Well that blind is 3 or 4 years old and I really didn't expect you to take it back. He said no problem pick any blind you want it's the least we can do for a guy thats passing the tradition on. Later in the afternoon Wesley and yours truly set the new Michael Waddell bone collector blind. Just about sundown 2 nice young bucks came by and Wesley dropped the best one in his tracks. Yep, I told him to break the shoulders. He did a nice job on that little 7 pointer. I got home about 10 pm. Wesley is still on cloud nine. The pics will be on my profile page in a few minutes. Thanks to everyone that helped and a big shout out to the boys at Cabela's.

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from elmer f. wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

yep, been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. LOL! more years ago that i want to remember, my wife shot a really nice 8 point buck. she shot it at roughly 40 yards, with a 30-30 right in the boiler room. we waited a half hour, and began out search. we walked right to the spot where she had shot it, you could see the footprints, and how it spun around, and went tearing back for cover. about 15 feet later, we found blood, GOOD BLOOD, not a few drops. it was obvious that she hit the deer well. roughly 50 yards in, we found a spotwhere the buck had laid down, the blood spot on the ground was about 4' in diameter. then it got back up and went deeper in the woods. i told my wife, that we should sit down for another hour, and make sure he had a chance to die in peace, instead of driving him deeper and deeper into the woods. so we did, and in the meantime, i shot, killed, and dressed another deer. when we resumed our trail, it had only gone another 40 - 50 yards before it laid back down. the blood spot was smaller, only about 2 foot in diameter and still leaving a trail when it got up and left. it did this 3 more times. then, the blood trail turned into a drop here, and one there. eventually, we ran out of blood. we searched and searched for about an hour, my wife was about to give up. but i knew the deer was dead, and we needed to retrieve it. i looked at where the trail had been going, and noticed a large old apple tree about 100 yards in side a fence line. i figured that that may have been a favorite spot for him through his life, so i climbed the fence, and went looking. sure enough, about 20 feet short of the apple tree, there he was. now, the only trouble was that he was on a private hunting club's private property. i looked around, and could see no one to ask, so i and my wife quickly dragged the deer back across the fence, guts and all. when we were roughly 50 yards inside the right side of the fence, we gutted him, and went and got the truck. that, was a LONG, HARD day! but ohhh, so worth it! oh yeah, the buck went almost a mile, and the shot was through one lung, and the heart, clipping the front leg on the far side. tell me that they dont have the will to survive!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Since Clay called BS on Remington's "new" round, I thought I might as well throw a flag on the Hornady/Marlin play as well. They claim that a .338 Marlin is somehow a new hotrod cartridge.

Claims Hornady, "... the FTX bullet at an amazing 2,565 fps from a 24" Marlin XLR. The bullet has a B.C. of .430 and matches 180 grain 30-06 ballistics in terms of energy and trajectory out to 400 yards."

That is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard. If that bullet has a BC of .430, I'll eat my hat. What are they comparing it to, a 180 gr roundnose SP with a BC of .241? No way that bullet performs equal to a 180 grain BTSP with a BC of .425 started at 2,700 fps or better with handloads. Another smoke and mirrors job from Hornady.

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from Carney wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Dave Petzal. Better pull up a chair.

Last night I had a dream and you managed to saunter your way into it. In my dream my wife and I were somewhere in a little town in the southwest and were attending some kind of shooting / self defence school. As dreams are usually whacky, it seemed like we were living in several different eras all at the same time -- old western; modern and sort of the '50's era. You fit mostly into the 50's era...

As it turned out you were brought in to be the trainer for one of our classes. When you arrived from the airport, we met you at the saloon. You got your room, dinner and more than a few drinks... Since you arrived on Saturday evening, you had to hold over through Sunday for the class on Monday. You were sort of bothered that "this was your life" but you were willing to go along with it. Apparently you traveled in regularly for the training as all the regular people knew who you were and what you were there for.

In this little town, everyone went to church on Sunday. It was sort of like going to church in "Little House on the Prairie" or something. You dutifully showed up at church, sat in the last pew, in the last seat; which I perceived to be your way of saying, "I'm 'in' but not 'really in'". You decided that you wanted to sing a song for the congregation and since you were known by the whole town, you were allowed to proceed. So from your seat, you sang a parody of an old timey hymn. It was filled with euphemisms, innuendo, and double entendre but if one wasn't listening to the words it just sounded like an old timey hymn, sung with passion from a tolerable voice. I was standing near two little old ladies who were basking in the moment, obviously moved by your passion, nodding their heads in agreement as you bellowed forth. They looked like they felt fortunate to have been there for your song.

I looked at the old ladies and thought to myself, "They have no idea what he's really saying." And then I woke up.

There you have it. I don't know anything about tracking wounded game. Yet.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

carney, I told you about eating pizza just before bedtime....

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Uh Will, I mean Clay, the way I remember it there was 3 of them bucks had the drop on you at 900 yds and you hauled out your pistol and blew them all away. I know, I know, you ain't like that anymore. Oops had Coop mixed up with Clint playing Will Munny or was it ol' Elmer? I can't remember, yuk,yuk. Lord, and Clay Please forgive me for saying that. Just saw some simularities. Really do wish I could shoot like you Coop.

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from Albert A Rasch wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Absolutely true!

The lower you get, the more likely it is you will see the traces of the animals passing. I've had to, more than a few times, get on my hands and knees to figure out which way to go.

Regards,
Albert
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
The Failure of PeTA's Moral Position

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Moosed up!

While hunting in New Mexico in Buck Canyon near Weed, one of the guys who came up with us shot a nice buck 3 times with his 7mm Rem Mag with 175 grain. After shooting 4 times he turned to me a yelled he was out of ammo and I was too far to hand him my rifle so I downed the buck with one shot out about 500-600 yards with my 22-250 with a Hornady 55 grain soft point. After field dressing the buck, the lung cavity looked like a bomb went off from my 22-250 and the 7mm hits looked as if were shot with Full Metal Jacketed bullets even though shot placement wasn’t exactly great the lack of bullet failure was to blame.

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from Bruce E. Matthews wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Agreed--except the older I get the more resistance to getting down where you need to be! The other thing is looking closely in places where the animal might brush along a tree or shrub, or weed stems. Watch the ground too much and you miss what sometimes is the only blood--what smeared off when the animal brushed past something shoulder high.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Amen, Brother Petzal

Shots too long, bullets that are inadequate, pi$$ poor shot placement, calibers not suited for the game at hand, inadequate tracking skils, and too much testosterone are the main reasons hunters lose game.

If you can't hit where it counts, you best become an expert tracker! But that is not likely since the poor shooters tend not to put anymore effort into tracking skills than shooting practice. The last time I spent all day tracking several years ago, I swore it would never happen again and it hasn't. A double lung/heart shot animal is not going far, regardless of what any of the experts on here or elsewhere claim. You let the air out of an elk and he is not going far, period. I wait until I am confident of a lethal shot.

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from buckhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

As a bowhunter I need to track nearly everything I shoot. I hate open grassy fields. Circling the last spot of blood is the best advice I could give someone who has a lost blood trail.

My brother in law shot a nice deer a couple years back. He said he center punched it in the kitchen or in normal terms double lunged it.

We tracked that deer for over 1 mile (as the crow flys) for a time period totaling 10 hours. We found him bedded in a creek bottom where we put the finall arrow in him from 10 feet away.

It turns out my brother in law shot the buck in the back leg just above the knee severing the artery in one leg and breaking the bone in the other. It was no doubt the worse shot I have ever seen on any animal...but it was recovered.

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from JOHN ANDERSON wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

HAPPY MYLES,Iagree with sgaredneck!I to had a simular situation duck hunting,The fellow i was hunting with made a wonderful double on a pair of mallards, he found the farthest rather easy.But could not find the second.As there is not much political correctness in our group he became irriatated.in his search for the second bird.I finaly crossed the creek we were hunting to aid him. there at my foot,creek side was his,duck.He had them turned a round in the order of his shot.

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from shane wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I find it disturbing that some need to be told this. I have bled my own blood crawling through Godknowswhat looking for blood. My intense nature and success rate has made me the go to tracker among my circle if I'm available. I consider this a blessing, helping a friend find their animal feels almost as good as shooting my own.

I agree on the blue and whatever else lights; they are borderline useless in the field. Might be great on some boring CSI show, but there aren't twigs and leaves with blood red blotches that aren't blood on their sets. I find the best light to be one with nice warm, natural looking light the best to my eye. Even most of the bright LED models have the tiniest blue twinge to them, and that screws me up.

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from steve182 wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Only once in more than 20 years of hunting have i had to track an animal that i did not recover. I found no blood, hair or sign of a hit, but i was sure i hit him. I found only scuffed ground, leaves turned over, and a scattered trail of excrement. I waited a half hour after what i thought was a good shot, though offhand ,at 70 yds with my '06. He was quartering away walking in fading light. I was hunting alone about a mile in. Immediately into my search, at dusk, i jumped the buck, which i had thought had run off. I backed out to return the next morning. I searched all morning by myself, and with the help of my dad all afternoon. His tracks and trail of feces led us into a swamp where it was quickly lost. We scanned the area fore and aft for hours to no avail. It is a very humbling experience for me. I suspect he was gutshot and will not take the moving shot again even at that relatively close range, especially offhand. I was a younger and dumber man at that time. I hope that buck made it but i suspect he may not have. If only i could have that shot back...

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

From Clays archives of bookmarks, places, information and things to read

ken.mcloud said it best!

“So, I think that the superior killing power of larger rounds is largely in our heads.(likely testosterone induced) A flat-shooting round that you can accurately place will produce as many if not more "bang-flop" kills as a heavy caliber round.”

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from PbHead wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

This is a great thread. My best tracking advice is to stay with it. When I hear people claim that they followed a good blood trail for yards, miles, hours or whatever, then it stopped, so they gave up, it makes me sick. The animal most likely bled out and is within 50 yards of where they gave up.

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from Walt Smith wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

The biggest thing I see with people is they start tracking way to quickly and give up too soon, that and they look only on the ground and not at small brush and grasses.

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from duckcreekdick wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Re: Nunyabinis hit the nail on the head. Here we are farting around looking for tiny specks of blood, when a good trail dog could do the job in five minutes. A damn shame most game departments do not allow the use of dogs in hunting big game. That little Jack Russell terrier (Tuffy)of Greg Rodriguez's never met a hog he couldn't track.

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from nunyabinis wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

From duckcreekdick: "Nunyabinis hit the nail on the head. Here we are farting around looking for tiny specks of blood, when a good trail dog could do the job in five minutes."

**************************************

Not to mention all the love and affection that Bluetick bestows and how toasty she keeps your feet on cold winter nights while laying across the foot of your bed. You can't beat that with a stick!!!

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from buckhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del,
That young man will never forget that day as well as you. I am a firm believer that no good deed goes unnoticed. Your (our) best hope is that Wesley returns your kindness to a young hunter 50 years from now. I can hear Wesley now, "When I was a young man I had to honor of knowing a man named Del..."

May god Bless you, your family and friends.

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter, I just talked to Wes' mom on the phone about boot size and she said he was so excited he did not sleep a wink all night.

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from Gritz wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Unfortunately, for a lot of hunters who are hunting very small tracts of land between private properties, the ability for game to travel means that we have to be even more sure of a good, clean shot. I often hunt along a busy stretch of four lane freeway that cut my father's farm in half. Usually, those deer, if they can get over the fence, will. So it is important to get a position that allows for a knockdown or at least a devastating blow. Even so, there are times when boundaries result in losing wounded game from time to time. That is why it is good to have a relationship with those around you and have their numbers on your phone in case you need to go in right away.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

First of all Dave the only problem with that show?

It was to short!!

I caught the show from start to end except for a few brief moments my German Shorthair wanted some loving jumping up on the side of my recliner putting her head in my chest.

I’ve only lost two deer in my life and it was because I fail into the idea expandable broad heads are suppose to be good, NOT! And never again will I use them so sticking to my 3 bladed 100 grain Muzzy’s and the tracking is short!

Coops Bottom line on this subject of loss game,

There are two reason hunters’ loose game, one is to poorly placed shots and second probably foremost poor bullet choice. A poorly placed shot is self exclamatory so I don’t need to go there. Poor bullet choice is one of the biggest problems I know of. Everyone believes you must use a heavy grain bullet for taking deer. Take the 7mm Mags with 175 grain and 30 Cal’s with 180’s. These bullet weights are actually too heavy for a sure kill. They lack the velocity to create sufficient hydrostatic shock to do lung tissue damage and that’s why my 22-250 does such a fine job. For 7mm/284 Cal’s for mule deer I’d use a 120 to a 139 grain and 30 cal 130’s to 165’s. Speaking of 30 Cal’s for 308 to 30 Cal Mag’s and I flat out love the Hornady 130 grain soft point, they shoot flat and hit hard with terrific hydrostatic shock and penetration and also doubles as a fantastic coyote load. Using a load that doubles as both a varmint load and deer load really gives you plenty of trigger time to perfect those “MOP” shots you have been dreamed about at long ranges! Another advantage of a lighter bullet is less recoil thus reducing the flinch factor!!

Another I didn't cover, wait time after the shot!

While hunting in New Mexico in Buck Canyon near Weed, one of the guys who came up with us shot a nice buck 3 times with his 7mm Rem Mag with 175 grain. After shooting 4 times he turned to me a yelled he was out of ammo and I was too far to hand him my rifle so I downed the buck with one shot out about 500-600 yards with my 22-250 with a Hornady 55 grain soft point. After field dressing the buck, the lung cavity looked like a bomb went off from my 22-250 and the 7mm hits looked as if were

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from RJ Arena wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

For me, tracking in palmettos is the toughest, seems to hide blood and tracks. I agree with all that said placement, it is like the old real estate mantra, location, location, location!

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from snowninja wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Maybe i just don't hunt enough, but i've never lost an animal. Maybe i need to go hunting more. That's it, that should work on the wife...

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

@JOHN ANDERSON

The word is "BACK"! Send in the dog!

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from Mark-1 wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I thought I was a decent tracker until I saw a real tracker, a German Jagermeister in Swabia. That guy could track a mouse that wandered across a parking lot.

BTW Europeans seem to use big caliber solid bullets that blow through big game on the theory the animal will always die. Of course, a gifted tracker is always in tow.

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from bluecollarkid wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

In re. the blue lights - you have to spray the area being lighted (lit?) with a "highlighting" solution before the "blue light" will highlight the blood. The solution attaches itself to the blood (or it may attach to any liquid) in the saturated cover and glows when the blue light hits it.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter the Fella using the 7mm Rem Mag with 175 grain bullets hit the deer 3 times finished his fourth round before the Buck was 150 yards out! It wasn't until the Buck came up on the other side of Buck canyon were I could make the shot

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Happy Miles

Agreed. I work in a world where sales and marketing (witchcraft, smoke and mirrors) types routinely let their alligator mouths promise things to customers that their hummingbird butts can't deliver with FAA certification (science and engineering). Too bad to be the FAA's bad guy musch of the time!

I have three words that I use to quiet their whining as to why they can't have it their way: "I hate it". Meaning: Too bad, so sad, but that's the way it's going to be.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Blow a decent hole clean through a deer and you will not have to look far. Follow the garden hose sized blood trail.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

By the way the new 30 Remington® AR is nothing more than a American reconstituted version of the AK47!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I m,ay not know makes and models like David, but I do know my cartridges!!!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I am disappointed by Remington's claims in their catalog, too. I expected better from the maker of half of my favorite rifles.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken $h1^!

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del, I know you are basking in your earthly rewards right now, but just think of the rewards you'll receive in Heaven for mentoring this young man! PTL

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

And thanks for allowing some of us to be a tiny part of that, too.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

sorry Charley, getting down and crawling through these Ky. woods on opening day is "Not Smart"

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I was just getting ready to tell Dave to shoot the Rem.700 in .308 and not track any critters...

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del, I can just imagine Dave crawling through the brush with his grunt call in his mouth and a white hankie in his hip pocket....

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from JOHN ANDERSON wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WAMhunter,Youd of had to been there.The fellow,well he was one of those guys.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Carney,
What kind of 'shrooms were on that pizza????
Did you have the strange urge to put on an Allman Brothers CD the next day?

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from Carney wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Sarg & Sgaredneck,

I asked for "portobello mushrooms". They thought I said, "portoPetzal mushrooms". But their mistake was not nearly as bad as if they'd thought I'd said, "portoBella mushrooms"!

(Sorry Bella... Couldn't resist.)

And now that you bring up the Allman Brothers Band, maybe I'd "normalize" if just quit listening to that stuff...

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from Carney wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Sgaredneck:

I was hoping to give DP a chance to crinkle his forehead and think, "what the heck was that?!?!" with my bizarre post... I bet it worked.

I cut my teeth playing drums with the Allman Brothers LP's. Amazing how that stuff can stick in your head -- I sang the entire guitar solo when they played "Jessica" on the oldies station while driving a few weeks ago; my kids were even impressed!

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from Carney wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

SGA = Yeah, Charlane Plantation.

Here's a clip of Chuck giving a little history and teaching on the song Jessica
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qK84Q1C-JI

OK. Back to tracking.

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Sorry but Jill was a "Natural" no crawling needed. The puppies have opened their eyes and first thing they did was point mama's titties

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Clay,
Like every great idea anyone's had, someone probably went down that path before. Wes Ugalde came up with 6mm, .25, 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 caliber rounds made from the parent .223 case. The biggest hitch is that the TCU rounds for the most part are too long OAL to work in an AR magazine or action (O Garcia,you are so right). I have long looked at making a 7mm TCU upper for an AR(supposedly J.D. Jones will make one and has made them), but most bullets are too long to make the cartridge work. You'd have to cut the case back some.

O Garcia,
I attended a shoot this past weekend where Remington/Bushmaster had a presence. They had the (revamped version of the Magpul Masada there) Bushmaster
ACR there. They actually raffled one off to benefit the Wounded Warrior Project. That mostly made up for my annoyance with the .30AR thing.
As for Alexander Arms and the 6.5 Grendel it looked to me like a case of Remington having more pull and lobbying $$$. Most every way I look at it the 6.5 appears to be superior. LWRC just makes stuff to sell. I think if the 6.5 Grendel was in the lead they'd be saying it was "made by warfighters for warfighters.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

WA Mtnhunter

Would of been nice instead of the Remington AR in 30 Cal would have been in 6.5mm Grendel!!! We don't need another cartridge that duplicates the 7.62x39mm (AK47 round). Kinda like when they came out with the WSSM's, they just reinvented the wheel to only look like a really "BAD ASS CASE" to cost more without improving the performance! I've also herd the WSM's and WSSM's are having feeding problems do to the fatter (larger diameter) case.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Clay,
I agree on the 6.5 Grendel. It would be bigger than it is now, but my understanding of it is that Alexander Arms (the proprietor of that cartridge) is all about the $$$. They have only certain manufacturers licensed to produce uppers or complete guns besides themselves, and are restrictive on who is doing the ammo. They've been politicking the 6.5 against the 6.8 Rem SPC II, (now in its second revision)and I think losing even though it looks like to me they have a better round there. I guess time will tell about the 6.8 Rem SPC(rev??) and the 6.5 Grendel.

Remington was hyping the .30 AR at the last SHOT show but I didn't see one ready to go. In my book don't talk about it if you don't have it to show ready to go.

I disagree on the WSMs. At least in my experience the .270WSM I own (and a .300WSM that I have spent a goodly amount of time with) have never failed to load, fire, eject, or cycle ever in my presence with my handloads or factory ammunition. I can't speak for the WSSM's. I do think their day in the sun is drawing to a close.

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from KJ wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I like to carry a little spray bottle with some hydrogen peroxide in it to help if the blood trail gets hard to find. The peroxide really bubbles up when it comes in contact with the blood. It's not foolproof, but it has helped a couple of times. Might come in helpful on some of those trail jobs after a 500 yard shot.

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del surely Clay does not tell some "Tall Ones" ? We all know that NONCOMS dont tell War stories! Heh Heh

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from Jere Smith wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Well maybe Jack O'Connor "Stretched the truth" once in a while!

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Carney- don't go changing for our sake! I LMAO on what you put down there. That was a little bizarre, but 100% hilarious.

On a different note I went to a class 3 shoot this past weekend and one of the vehicles there had a big 'Allman Brothers Band' sticker on the back window. I was happily surprised. I drove back home after it with Fillmore East blasting.....

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from shane wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Love those Brothers.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

DEP was probably just shaking his head. It hung me up too. LOL

Here's another aside from asides. It's a small, small world we live in. My Dad just a few days ago was at a seminar relating to habitat & wildlife ecology at Chuck Leavell's plantation south of Macon. For those of you that don't know, Chuck is a world-class musician with too many credits to list, but he is also a HUGE supporter of Bobwhite Quail habitat and forestry practices. And a damn nice fellow too. There's your 'Jessica' tie-in.

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from sgaredneck wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

We'll get back to tracking wounded game directly here.

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Come-on guys, Daves trying to be serious here...But don't craw through these Ky. woods on opening day Dave. Now Dell has probly crawled through some fields showing those bird dogs how to point.

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from Cgull wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I've had to get on hands and knees before, it does help these old eyes find those smaller droplets of blood.One these days I'm gonna command Snickers to become a blood trailing, retriever, rabbit and shed hunting dog.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Nah, that dog won't hunt.....

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

sgaredneck I got the wrong job I do! Back in the 7o's I remember talking about taking the 223 and necking it out to 25 or better yet 264. Back in the 70's my favorite Turkey Shoot rifle is a Carl Gustaf Stads Gevarsfaktori 6.5x55 Swedish Naval Carbine with a 16ish barrel. Knowing what the 6.5 will do especially the 264 Win Mag I knew first hand! If the folks at Grindel are going to withheld the chambering, I would go with taking the 223 and punch it out to 257 cal!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

If I was going to introduce a new rifle cartridge, I would reintroduce the 264 Win Mag with an improved barrel for longer life expectancy and that is what killed this fine cartridge! A 140 grain in a 264 Win Mag? Awesome long range performance over the others!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Hey Del in KS and Moishe, you guys crack me up! We got to do a hunt some time!!

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from O Garcia wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I've been curious about the .30RemAR as well. I've read some reviews which read like copy. The .308 they're referring to is Remington's own .308 Managed Recoil. If only they mentioned that very clearly in the ad.

Knowing this is Remington talking, they'd probably overhype it, and then, as usual, underload it.

Clay Cooper, to be fair, the .30RemAR, at least on paper, has better ballistics han 7.62x39. It's faster than the AK round, and marginally faster than 6.8SPC too. BUT IT HAS A FAT CASE which greatly reduces magazine capacity. If this is going to be a military round, it's not ideal for the AR platform, even though it fits the magazine. As one reviewer said, gun designers are obsessed with the dimensions of the AR-15 magazine and are therefore building (and limiting) their rifles and cartridges around it, ironically, that magazine is one of the weakest links in the AR-15.

There seems to be a war going on between the 6.5Grendel and 6.8SPC camps, much like the bitter war between gunwriters who expected the ".220Swift" to be based on the .250Savage case and Winchester, who dared to choose a different case (6mmNavy). If you read the website of Land Warfare Resources, they even tout the 6.8 as developed by warfighters for warfighters. And the Grendel was not? Looks to me like another case of "not invented... by us"

But I think just like VHS vs. Betamax, it will be a question of who adopts what more. I think the 6.8 is ahead there. Especially if it's true Alexander is withholding its 6.5.

Oh BTW, Remington gets in the AR business with DPMS and Bushmaster, and even acquires the formely Magpul MASADA, and Ruger answers with its piston-driven SR-556. Let the debates begin.

Direct gas impingement vs. Short stroke piston?
If piston, is it LWRC or LMT or POF-USA? Or maybe since cost is an object, why not Ruger's SR-556? After all, Ruger always finds a way to make products cost less than the competition. (Actually, right now, the LMT, POF and Ruger piston-driven ARs cost about the same - $2,000.00)

How about Robinson's XCR?

Or why not just heed the wisdom from 100 years ago (when the US military copied the Mauser in the form of the 1903 Springfield) and adopt the H&K G36?

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I think the only thing about the M-16 that I don't like is the piston in the bolt thing. I saw an ad on the Black rifles for hunting with a 30 round banana clip. Come guys, why a 30 round clip?

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Hey Del, with a 30 round clip, you and I could have a chance at hitting a Deer.... (Joking of course).

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from sarg wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Del, how about a thirty round clip in that bird gun?

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from SAND BAGGER wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I agree with Clay especially about the 6.5 Grendel and as for the 30 cal and other calibers vs OAL? To coin a phrase,, GO FIGURE!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

High Performing Accurate and Economical Cartridges interest me the most. I don’t see a need to come out with new cartridges; they just need a load that performs! The Remington 30 AR sounds like a nice rifle to own and shooting a 125 grain sounds great.

So what about 125 or better yet a 130 grain loading shooting 223 Velocities, flat shooting, lower recoil and will drop the biggest Mule Deer without any problem. In my 30-06 I’ve been shooting 130 Grain Hornady’s with 54 grains of IMR4064 for 43 years and never lost any deer White Tail or Mule Deer and doubles as the perfect Coyote load giving you more trigger time honing your skills and come Deer Season no need to change bullets!

I have not found a single person who tried my load on deer who didn’t like it, in fact they LOVED IT!

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from Clay Cooper wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

Hey sarg instead of Del with a 30 round Mag for his shotgun, how about a “AA” Gauge Shotgun with a bore diameter of 4 inches

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from Del in KS wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

I'm gonna stick with 28 ga for upland and 12 for eveything else. All that ammo would be more than this ol' back could carry.

Sarg, you hang on to that 30 round mag it might come in handy some day if we have to fight again.

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from WA Mtnhunter wrote 4 years 29 weeks ago

In the latest issue of F&S, I noticed that a picture of a Nosler Partition had no tip? It looked like a Swift A-Frame to me. David, did your photo ed moose up?

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from sarg wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Clay, I bet Dell has a .203 launcher under that 28 Ga.... Never know when you find a covey on the ground.. Move the dog first Del.

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from micko77 wrote 4 years 28 weeks ago

Sad to say it, but I've lost two well-hit deer that crossed fences into property where no one was permitted to hunt or recover game---corporate policy. I don't hunt there anymore. I always carry at ;east a half-roll of toilet paper in my fanny pack, partly for the obvious reason, but it is also very useful in placing it on blood droplets to help figure out where a deer is headed, or at least be able to pick up the last place I could confirm his presence.

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