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A Pithy Bit Of Rifleshooting Heresy

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March 28, 2007

A Pithy Bit Of Rifleshooting Heresy

By David E. Petzal and Phil Bourjaily

It occurred to me the other day that the Remington Model 700 is a better rifle than the Winchester Model 70. I haven’t been so upset since I found out the government gave guns to sailors, but anyway, here’s my reasoning:

Remington designed the 700 (originally, the 721 and 722) after World War II when it became apparent that rifles would have to be made cheaply or their makers would go out of business. (Winchester never quite grasped that point and has pretty much gone out of business.) Because of this, the 700 was always the “cheap” gun while the 70 was the “fine” gun. Sticks and stones were hurled at the 700 for its cheesy-looking safety, pot metal trigger guard and floorplate, tiny, non-rotating extractor, and push-feed operation.

Granted, the safety, which requires a gaping slot in the stock, is horrible, as is the pot metal trigger guard. However, the extractor, in my experience, is as good as that of the Model 70 and maybe better. (I’ve seen Model 70 and Mauser extractors fail, but never a 700). As for push feed as opposed to controlled feed, who cares? It works. The rifle I have shot the most, a .30/06 Model 700, has never failed to feed, despite over 3,000 rounds through it.

As for quality, Model 70s have varied wildly. Some of them are great, but there was a period of years prior to 1964 when they were awful, and the ones made in the years prior to the last gasp of the Model 70 were as bad as anything I’ve seen. Remington, however, has always maintained a pretty even keel.

But the deciding factor is this: If you were to test 1,000 Model 70s of all calibers and the same number of 700s, I think the latter would outshoot the former by an embarrassing margin. The 700 is stiffer, and simpler, and easier to make into an accurate rifle. Gunsmiths who go for accuracy above aesthetics go for Remington actions over Winchester just about every time. And accuracy, when all the sentimental b.s. is done with, is what a rifle is about.

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from Jack Zeller wrote 5 years 42 weeks ago

I had a model 742 Remington in 30-06 and carried it for years. It was exremely accurate, 3/4 inch groups all day long with Remington factory ammo. But it was heavy and I sold it and got a Win. Model 70 featherweight (30-06)in 1992. That rifle weighs 6 pounds, and shoots 1 inch groups all day long with 165 grainers (factory ammo). Maybe I just got lucky but I wouldn't trade this Model 70 for 2000.00 bucks!

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from mark wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

Why are the pre 64 Win 30.06 so much more expensive than say a Rem .300 Win Mag 700??

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from David Hendrix wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

I had a M-14 Grand Match, At 300 meters i keep a 2.5 to6 " gropdingI would love to purchace on againDavid M Hendrux

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from Gary Nelson wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The 257 Roberts has sometimes been referred to as the "most useful rifle cartridge ever developed". That is not very far wrong. It is suitable for a wide range of hunting under a variety of conditions. As a long range varmint cartridge it is only slightly inferior to the newer 6mm's. On deer, antelope, black bear, sheep or goat it is completely adequate. Naturally, it is not as powerful as the 270 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield but has ample power for the game mentioned at all practical ranges.Originally the 257 Roberts was underloaded by ammunition companies. However, in the late 1980's higher pressure +P loads were introduced which enabled factory loaded 257 Roberts ammunition to reach full potential. With 117 or 120 grain boattail bullets at velocities at 2800 fps the 257 can be used successfully on elk and caribou. It is at this end of the scale that it has its advantage over the 6mm's.

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from J. Woodson wrote 6 years 23 weeks ago

What is the difference in a 257 Roberts and a 257Roberts +P

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from james reinhardt wrote 6 years 38 weeks ago

DO YOU THINK THE 22-250 WOULD BE ABLE TO DROP AN ANTELOPE?

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from John wrote 6 years 42 weeks ago

Had a 700 once, the broad side of the barn is still safe. Sold all my Remingtons, rifles & shotguns, bought Winchester and Ruger. All rifles shoot through the key hole of the barn door.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 43 weeks ago

The Remington 700?I bought my first 700BDL at TG&Y back in 73 when I was 18. To this day, I have replaced 3 barrels in that rifle. Today I still have that rifle pluss another 700BDL and a 03-A3 Remington. Never had a single problem.Out of all my hunting and competition experience, I got to say the 700 Remington, is in fact the most reliable and most accurate rifle out of the box today. I have assisted hundreds of hunters on the range equipping their rifle by installing scopes, other accessories and sighting them in. All of them were a snap to do. They all shot 1MOA or less.No additional tweaking is necessary, unless you want to lighten up the trigger pull.When you by any chance you do have a problem, contacting Remington for warranty or special services, they are by far the best. They just take care of it without any hassle, Period! Take Ruger’s rifle customer service, your screwed! They will fight you tooth and nail.There was a European Gun Manufacturer touring U.S. Gun Manufacturers. He was asked what he thought of U.S. made firearms. His reply? “UNFINISHED”!All the firearms I have bought and shot, I have to agree that the European Gun Manufacturer is 100 percent correct in his one word statement, “UNFINISHED” with the exception of Remington rifles.Clay Cooper

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 43 weeks ago

Growing up in the sixties I never really understood the rifleman's rifle. Remington's were cheaper, more accurate, and I thought they were beautiful. Nothing ugly about it unlike the Savages. Of course I have never been one to go with public opinion, I make my own decisions. Now I think the Weatherby Vanguard is great. They're cheap, accurate, and I think they're beautiful. I don't want a furniture grade piece of wood to hunt with, my treestand will scratch the heck out of it first time anyway. If you're buying guns to look at get a No. 1 like I did and set it up front in the cabinet...

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from FLOYD PHILLIPS wrote 6 years 43 weeks ago

WHAT ABT THE CANADIAN SNIPER THAT KILLED A TALIBAN AT A CONFIRMED 2430 METERS , THATS ALMOST 2.5 KILOMETERS OR 1.5 MILES.HARD TO BELIEVE !!!

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from FLOYD PHILLIPS wrote 6 years 43 weeks ago
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from sam wrote 7 years 1 week ago

i have my dads first big game rifle its a remington 742, yall knoe the old school 742 with the metal but plate, anyway my girlfriends dad is the retired head officer of the marine corp sniper school, in quantico Va. we took my rifle which has a 1-4x leopold, chambered in 30-06, my model 70 .270, and my dads model 700 7mag out to the sherrifs dept. firing range, out to 250 yards all 3 rifles would hold sub moa groups. i wasnt shooting, girlfriends dad was. at 300 yards the model 70 lost its grouping and it started grouping at well over an inch, while the 742 still held about a 1" group. the 700 isnt worth mentioning it held sub moa groups bast 500 yards. but for my purposes any of the 3 rifles would work, i will admitt that i was astounded by the accurasy of the 742. we also shot my friends 243 i believe that its a model 788 it would hold right at moa out to 200 yards then it went all over the place. but for my money i loke a remington i have grown up on them and they just feel right for some reason, also it helps that if i miss with one of my rifles i know it wasnt the rifle it was me, and all 3 of the rifles in my family shoot a hell of a lot better than i do out to about 300 yards.

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from Roger Reeves wrote 7 years 2 weeks ago

Remington bought several import Co.s last year. Some were excellent made guns. However, once Remington bought out the importers and offering for sale, I notice the price nearly doubled.Remington now even offers a Mauser action firearm?????. Remington could bite off a tad more than they can chew. They should stick with the 700's and forget buying all the small cheaper price importers. I just hope Rmington don;t skimp on the 700 and it bites the dust as Winchester did with the WSM's, etc. All the rave of the later 70's in WSM's and very light firearms did not last long. A light gun in a small caliber may be ok, but for say a 30-06 and larger, you need a gun in the 8 to 10 lb range. The heavier to me is better acuracy. I want my hunt gun to be in the 8-10lb range and when the cross-wires meet the vitals, fire. Weight does stabalize the front end of a firearm. I prefer any additional wt to be from the action back, as my arms are very weak and cannot hold a gun steady for long.With the wt on the shulder, it solves that heavy front-end and helps you stabalize your shot. Some firearms fit each of us different. To my built and gun handling, a Remington in 700 or a ll00 when I put to my shoulder, it kinda falls on to the target right away. The 70's I had did not do that, felt awkward to me. A gun has to feel a extention of your arm when you throw it up to your shoulder. Good hunting with what-ever you use. Thats why so many different one's mfgered. For the money you may have to spend, a Savage is hard to beat.May not be the most beautiful gun made, but they do shoot well and accurate. If a Savage gets scratched or few dings, you not gonna cry, just hunt another day.After all is said and done. Any gun is Ok if you out in the wide open spaces relaxing and enjoying whats available.Some of my best hunts, I never fired a shot.Don;t forget to pratice, Pratice, Pratice, then you will know where your gun will hit the target on each shot.Hey, lets all gone hunting in AM.Roger

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from shepdogwv wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Speaking of comparing Win. and Remington. Does anyone else have a push feed Mod. 70? I have one in '06 and also have a Rem 700 in 7mm-08 and I was just wondering what the quality difference between the two push feed actions are.

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from Roger Reeves wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

When I told a good writer friend of mine that I had bought a Winc. 70 in 300 WSM he only said, don;t sell any of your now owned long actions hunting rifles, as if you do you will regreat it. The WSM's and WSSM's will be short lived and the old faithful guns will always be a hunters gun of choice. Hard-headed as I am, I had to give a 300 WSM a try, only took me 3 shots to realize my writer friend knew what he was talking about. So, sold, traded all the short, big belly guns and bought regular old time calibes in Remington 700's and 2 Savage's due to the price and to haul around on my 4 x 4 and pickup. Being handicapped, I hunt from a vehicle( I have a legal permit) and a gun you haul around on a 4 wheeler takes beating by limbs, briars, etc. For serious Rocky Mtn hunting, my 700 CDL's go with me as well as the 25-06 I;ve owned for many years. Gun mfgers realize us hunter's are a crazy lot, so they mfger all these new guns, calibers for us to buy.For dependable firearms, stay with the Remington 700 and the Savages. O' you can spend thousands of $$$$ but if the bullet don;t strike the vitals, does not matter if it cost $400.00 or $4K Good hunting, Roger

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from george wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Thanks to you guys who responded about the Winchester 94. This IS a great thread . It is clear that , if the gun..any gun... is reasonably accurate and sound mechanically , after that, affection for the arm makes the rest of the difference. I have all that in my 94AE . Thanks again.BTW...the California DFG on-line has an amazing wild pig book which is a free download and is very , very complete and interesting. It even includes tables of recommended gun calibers and loads .

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from Roger Reeves wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

The articles written on the Savage is very interesting: In my part of the country,Savage is not even referred to as a gun. WHY???? I can;t tell you.I do know its a simple firearm, not fancy, but does shot well. For less than $400.00 you can get a great Savage with Accutrigger, etc. Can;t wait till my Stevens 200 in 223 (clone of the Savage ll0,)arrives, as will use the 223 at groundhogs, and hopefully this fall some P/D's out west. I do believe one reason the Savage in my area is so un-popular, is all of my Buddies, spoiled on the Rems and Wincheseters as the only guns mfgered.@ndly, Savage sells many firearms, and a lot has to do with price. Can buy a new Savage, or Stevens for less money than a used Rem. or Winch.I'm 72 yrs old,disabled/handcapped and have hunted a lot, but know little about guns. What I want in my shooting guns, is accuracy and dependability at the shot. It takes lots of pratice and the best Ammo available to achieve greatness. Been to the Rockies about every year for past l5 yrs, and killed Elk, Mulies, W-tails, Antelopes. All were killed with some caliber by Remington, most were with the 30-06. NOTE::::: Need some advice from you B/P hunters. I own a CVA Hunterbolt, I use 2, 50 gr. Poyrodex and the Powerbelt sabots. After the first shot there is residue of powder left in the bbl. Then its impossible to reload with the bullet going all the way down. I called CVA and they told me to swab out the bbl with moisture from my mouth on a clean patch befor re-loading.Who has the time to do all that when hunting and a 2nd shot is needed immediately. I never had this problem with my T/C 54 Cal Hawken, but was using Pyrodex loose powder and Buffalo Croncals. Any suggestions guys. I hate to trade this gun off, as it's scoped and the first shot is within bulls eye at l50 yds, and 2-3" pattern at 200 yds,.Is this a pattern on 24" verses 28" bbls? or is it the Pellets and Sabots I;m using. Any suggestions appreciated.;;;;; Any of you guys tried the Rossie break-action B/P in 50 cal? At the price,(I love the way it loads) can;t see paying X#$ more for a new T/C, of which I know the quality is better. Suppose at my age, do;t want all the guns made, just one of each. Good hunting guys.I will continue to hunt large game with my Rem CDL in 30-06, as it fits my style shooting better than any other guns I;ve tried,or owned. Suppose that;s why so many different guns mfgered, right?

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from tay wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

just wanted to put more pressure on Dave to recognize the savage 110. As far as factory rifles go they will outshoot anything and are easier on the wallet. Not that money has ever been an issue to Petzal.

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from JB wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I can't find the reference again, but I remember reading that one of the reasons the Marines went to the mod 700 over the 70 was ease of machining. Basically all sniper rifles are trued and re-barreled by USMC Armorers. For this to be done on a 700 action is a simple matter in a lathe, while the 70 is very much more difficult to blueprint.I've never owned a model 70, but I did have a 670 in .270 Win that shot better than I could.I own a couple of 700's and they are both far more accurate than I need for my hunting adventures.I bought a Savage for my son this past Christmas. That accutrigger is one heck of a deal. That gun shoots! If you miss with that one, you sure don't get to blame the rifle. Nope, no way.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

To Dick Gunlogson: Good to hear from you.To evryone: When Mr. Gunlogson sends in a post, read it carefully. He didn't say so, but he has just retired after 50 years as an Alaska guide/outfitter.I didn't throw Savage into this blog, but I believe they make the most accurate rifles of anyone. (Tikka might be as good, but I haven't shot that many.) Savage pays an amazing amount of attention to the barrel, and to the concentricity of the barrel and receiver, and now, of course they have the Accu-Trigger as well.A couple of years ago, I was hunting prairie dogs as the guest of a company that made very expensive rifles, and I asked two of the guys who worked in the shop what they hunted with. "Savages," they both said.However, don't look for a return of the rotary-magazine Model 99. Ron Coburn says that there are too many used 99s out there as competition, and that even with all the advances in manufacture, it's still too expensive to produce.

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from Mark wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I’ve had a number of Model 70’s and 700’s. I have to agree Model 70’s are inconsistent and vary widely in quality from what I’ve seen. I still have a Model 70 in 458 that’s excellent. I had a good Model 70 in Featherweight in 7mm Mauser. I also had a 700 in 7mm Mauser that tended to be more accurate than the Winchester. Why, I’m not certain. The Winchester did have a slightly different twist.I think what gets me on Remington’s is there’s so many models. Some are certainly utilitarian; others leave me scratching my head asking, “Why?” The Remington Classics are a case in point. I think these are cheap, lousy rifles for the price compared to the CDL and early Mountain rifles.I look at some of the asking prices for the used Winchesters in disbelief when I recall some of the quality of these rifles I’ve seen. Anyone best not buy a Model 70 sight-unseen.I’m seldom impressed with rifles brought out in new calibers. Shooters are a trending lot. They’ll buy something new just to try out. The major manufacturer’s know it and count on selling 100,000 copies of any new rifle/cartridge combination they bring out

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from Larry Rayburn wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

This is in reply to your statement That Remington 700 rifles are better than the Win. Model 70: Amen Brother, Amen. In my opnion, I have always thought that they only make two kinds of rifles, Remington, and them other kind.

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from Larry Rayburn wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

This is in reply to your statement That Remington 700 rifles are better than the Win. Model 70: Amen Brother, Amen. In my opnion, I have always thought that they only make two kinds of rifles, Remington, and them other kind.

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from Roger Reeves wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I love those Remingtons. My first big-game rifle? was a Winchester 94; 30-30. I then wanted something larger, so bought a Remington Auto, which I used for many years. My first trip to the Rockies on a Elk hunt I killed a 6 x 6 @250 yds with the Remingotn 742. My 2nd trip West, the guide would not allow me to keep one in the chamber till ready to fire. As you know eject a round from the magazine on a Auto and let the action go down on is own, it makes a noise you can hear for 2 miles. So, next year I bought a new Remington 700 CDL in 30-06. This gun will shoot 3 rounds at 200 yds, that you can cover with a quarter. LAst year I killed a 4 x 4 Deer at 345 yds l shot. All my hunting guns zeroed in @200 yds. The bullet only dropped 4 " in 345 yds. On the same trip, I used my 700 Classic 25-06 for Lopes in Wy. Shot a Antelope at 325 yds,again one shot. I;ve had the Remington 25-06 for over 30 yds, and is more accurate than the 30-06.I did buy a Winchester 70 in 300 WSM when the WSM's first came out. Shot it 3 times, found it a new home, what a hunk of junk it was. I have little doubt as to why Wincheser ceased to mfg the 70. In my book, the Remington CDL is a fine firearm, much more shoot-able and accurate than the 700 BDL.AS for the Stevens 200 ( a old Savage ll0 brought back to life) I have a a order in for l in 223 and l in 25-06 for a haul around. Not really found of the Grey color of the stock, but at less than 275.00 can;t expect a 700. A little black and brown paint will enhance the color a lot. If not satisfied will stock coloring, will restock with a Boyds Walnut stock, as I do prefer Wood verses the light wt syns. Like a nice car, I want my guns to look good and preform flawless when hunting. With the cost of a hunting trip to the Rockies, I need/want a accurate, dependable firearm, topped with a Nikon Monarch 3 x 9 x 40 scope.Lastly but far for less importance is the Ammo we use. Its ok to use cheapo for pratice and zeoring to a point. But for the hunt, buy the very best Ammo you can find. I use Remingtons new Bonded 30-06; l80 gr Scricco's and for the 25-06 use Winchester Ballistic tips for W-tails , Lopes and 85 grs fo smaller game. good hunting. If never owned or shot a Remington, try one out, you may like better than the Wincheser 70's I did. I am told by my Gunsmith, that he builds more custome guns using Remington Actions, than any other action, including the Mauser's . If you don;t own a Remington 700, the next trip to the range, club and you see a guy shooting one, ask him to allow you to give it a shot? Sure you will be pleased. Load it from the magazine, do not just drop one into the chamber, which you can, not like some Winchesters or Mausers. Good luck, Roger Reeves, N.Carolina.

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from Robert L. miller wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I have used a Model 700 for the past20 years, NEVER have I had a problem. Beautiful rifle.

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from Robert L. miller wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I have used a Model 700 for the past20 years, NEVER have I had a problem. Beautiful rifle.

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from Scott wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Hey, this is a great thread! Had a Win. of that model in 22.250 for about 2 weeks. Found that it wouldn't do more than 1.5 inches at a hundred yards. SO...I promptly traded it on an ancient 40X Remington in 30 cal. Used it to take a pasture poodle out at 749 steps.That was a great day. Remington is where it's at folks. Short the "custom made" rifle, it's the action for most all our military and police precision shooting.

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from Michael wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I hated the model 70 I had, but I just sold it for 3 times what I paid, so NOW it is a GREAT rifle. I like my daughters 700, but I take my Savages any day of the week!

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from Michael wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

The original Remington Model 700 mountain rifle (floorplate, not DM) was one of the finest 700 variations ever made. I've never understood why Remington dropped it. Now you can only get it in a laminated stock version. I had mountain rifles in .280, 7x57, .257 Roberts,(rechambered to .257 Ackley; Jeez, that one would group for 3 shots!)& 7mm08. Everyone of mine would shoot well.I wish Remington would bring back the original 700 Mountain Rifle. They go for a premium at gun shows when I can find one.

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from O Garcia wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

If the Remington 700 has a fault, it's that it is difficult to give it the "classic look". Overall, it is not as straight and sleek as the Winchester or Mauser. The pistol grip is too steep, and the trigger group/magazine box too deep. I'm not sure if I'm making my point well, if I'm saying it correctly. I guess you'll have to compare both rifles, either thru pictures or right in front of you. The Winchester is clearly more handsome. You can make a rapier-like or wand-like Winchester, but the Remington will always have a fat belly.I am left wondering why Remington could make other model numbers "straighter" (the short lived Models 725 and 673 Guide Gun) but not the 700.On the other hand, the 700's much-maligned extractor works right out of the box, and requires very little sophistication from the gunmaker in order to function. The CRF extractors of Mausers and Winchesters are indeed wonderful things, but they need to be properly tuned to the round, a much more difficult and sophisticated process than is usually realized by buyers (I'm borrowing Ross Seyfried's words here).Concerning accuracy, out of the box accuracy doesn't seem to matter to custom builders because Remingtons are almost always the building block for any custom rifle that is designed to be very accurate, in spite of the fact that Savages and Browning A-Bolts are more accurate out of the box. Whether that's simply a force of habit (gunsmiths are simply more familiar with Remington than Savage or Browning) or actual confidence in the design, I don't know. But when US snipers need a rifle, it's usually based on a Remington. Oh yes, Winchester Model 70s did serve USMC snipers early in Vietnam, but by the time of Carlos Hathcock's 2nd tour, the only Model 70 part on their rifles was the steel floorplate/trigger guard. The rest of the action was Remington 700.I suppose John Plaster's words said it best: "it's tough to beat the old trusty Remington 700."

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from JimmieD wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I own several 700's and a couple of Sako's. Only have one model 70 still with me and it has a Pac-Nor barrel. With all the tweaking and messing with loads to find the sweet spot, it still doesn't shoot like the Remington 700 LTR or 700 M24. If I was shopping for accuracy and didn't want to pay a gunsmith a kings ransom to get a model 70 to shoot, I would get a Remington 700 LTR in 308. I have one that will shoot a dime @ 100 yards all day long (if I do my part). If you are a real accuracy nut, buy a Remington M24 in 308. I finally saved enough bucks for the M24 and it is what they claim, a real shooter, heavy as an anchor but shoots the way we gun guys all dream about.

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from FH wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

In all of my years in competative shooting, I've never seen a model 70 at a Bench Rest Match. Never noticed one at a silouett competition. I have seen plenty of Remington 700's at both(bench rest XP-100 variant). I've noticed that while some people swear by the model 70 they aren't the people I see at the range that often, same with Weatherby's. The 700's I've known, tend to group like Nolan Ryan Fastballs.(Hall of Fame for both)

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from Artry wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

My winchesters (model 94 in 30-30 and late model 70 in 7 mag) are more accurate than I am. That's good enough for me.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I once owned a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30. It had a trajectory approximating a rifle grenade and at 50 yards it grouped about as well as a bunch of Phil Niekro knuckleballs. That's when I resolved never to buy another Winchester.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I had a "post64" winchester rifle, the Westerner model with a 24" barrel. It shot well,accurate, and handled a host of handloads nicely.Now, unless we are taking sniper course required accuracy here,I still believe the Mod-70 is a good hunting rifle. Most hunters I know barely fire a dozen rounds thru them in a year, sight it in before hunting season, shoot a deer, read this blog and say the the H*ll are these guys taking about?I sold my 70 out of financial need, and replaced it with a lever action, but I wouldn't mind buying another if the opportunity arose?

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from David Honish wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

It was Townsend Whelen who said only accurate rifles are interesting.The US Army did comparison shoot offs with off the shelf and modified M700 & M70 rifles for use as sniper rifles during the Viet Nam War. The M700 was found to be more reliable, durable, and accurate. The push feed action allows centering of the round in the chamber for better accuracy, as opposed to being forced in by 'controlled feed.' Hard to argue with what works.Want to stir up a real hornet's nest? Ask why the ballistically more efficient .280 REM is outsold by the .270 WIN? "No cartridge is as good as Jack O'Connor said the .270 WIN was." Finn Aagard

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from Dick Gunlogson wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dave,I have quite a few of both 70s and 700s in cal from .222 to 458. I bought an 70(the Alaskan,.338) in '59 and added it to my other assorted belongings and headed for AK. Been here ever since. After becoming an active Big Game Guide that was my personal backup gun for polar, brown and grizzly hunts, using the original factory .300 gr bullet. It has, probably, been in attendance at more bear kills than most any gun (ner) I know of today. I bought a 700 .222 in early 60's and with it killed upward to a thousand hair seals when there was a bounty as well as a valuable hide. Out of the box sub MOA gun. Surprising, however, how your concentration improves when every shot is for MONEY. I also have a 700-7mag which was set into a very early Chet Brown kevlar stock. It has taken a Grand Slam with 5 shots total. Two were 1" apart in the Rocky ram. When I planned my Marco Polo hunt, due to much talk of 500yd + shots, I had my friend at Rem. (Tim McCormick) send me a 700 in .300UM which was out of the box MOA. Turned out my 7M would have been fine as I killed the ram at a ranged 385yds. In my fifty years in the field (near 45 guiding) reliability of either has not been problem. In this forum I would gather there is more than an abundance of capable shooters. However, as a guide, I would say a good percentage of the clients would benefit more from practice than from seeking the 'ultimate' weapon.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

FYI:The United States Marine Corps used the pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 bolt-action rifles as their standard-issue sniper rifle from the 1950's, until they were replaced by the Remington Model 700 series bolt-action rifles in the mid-1960's in which the Remington Model 700 became the basis for the M40 series sniper rifle that is in current U.S. Marine Corps service today.One of the reasons why the U.S. Marine Corps replaced their Winchester Model 70s was that the post-1964 variants of the Model 70 did not meet up to the U.S. Marines' standards, thus they were replaced. Despite the introduction of the Remington Model 700 rifle, the pre '64 Winchester Model 70 were still used by the US Marine Corps' scout/sniper teams during the Vietnam War alongside the Remington Model 700 rifles. The original wood stocks were found to be warping in both rifles after a few years of service, and were given fiberglass stocks to remedy the problem. Existing Model 70s still in service have had their stocks replaced with a McMillan fiberglass stock, such as that found on the Custom Extreme Weather variant [5].One of the best known U.S. Marine Corps snipers who used the Winchester Model 70 as their preferred sniper rifle during the Vietnam War was Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock who used a Winchester Model 70 sniper rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield as his sniper rifle of choice (The Winchester Model 70s the U.S. Marine Corps used before adopting the Remington Model 700 were chambered in .308 WINCHESTER).SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_70

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from PbHead wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Good thread Dave. Could you expound on which rifle actions require the most "skilled" hand assembly? My guess would be the Remington and Savage bolt actions require the least, Winchester the most and Ruger some where in the middle. I do not know enough about the Browning A-Bolt or the Weatherbys to comment.

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from HGHunter wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I have a Remington 700 in .30-06 and a Winchester model 70 in 7MM and they both fill a nitch. I have to say I get better groups with my Remington 700 over the model 70 at 100 yards. So I have to agree, but I would rather not have to take a 300+ yard shot with the .30-06 just due to the caliber.

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from John N Schoen wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

My Remington 700/243 was the reason I gave up woodchuck hunting. The rifle was so accurate as to be scary; three shots at 100 yards could be covered with a dime. Any chuck out to 300+ yards was a dead chuck. Basically it was no longer a challenge! Handloads were used---IMR3030/Zippedo HP(Nosler?). Does anyone out there remenber using these bullets?Also I agree with the comments on the Savage 110. I have the base model in 30-06. Not as accurate as the Remington but out of the box with factory ammo MOA groups. Good enough for my aging eyes!

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from Sarg wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dave, do snipers really use the model 70??? Being retired Army, I've never seen any sniper use anything but 700s or M-14s in .308, maybe a.50 cal, but mostly the700. Must be something here....

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from Sarg wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I have owned and use A model 700 in .308 for 25+ years. I bought the ADL because I'm not really fond of any thing under the stock (floor plate). I load my own ammo (150gr. Sierra SP./ IMR 3031 powder) and have never had any problems with this Rifle. I don't believe I would ever buy anything else.

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from Bill Acord wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dave,I have 10 pre-64 Model 70 rifles, about 3 Remington Model 700 rifles, and 2 Savage bolt actions.The Savage rifles will outshoot all of my other rifles. What Savage has going for it is that their President, Ron Coburn, is both a businessman and a hunter.If they would only offer a takedown kit with extra barrels.Then I would like to see them join with Pine Tree Castings and bring back the Model 99.Thanks.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

George,Here's my 2 cents. Buy what shoots best for the rifle. Then use those bullets for the bear protection. In most instances bears shot in self defense are done at really close range (10 yards or less). Personally I like a pump 12 gauge for Bear protection (alternating 00 buck and slug 10 round Mossbergs). That is also what the Fish & Game in Alaska uses. Not sure where you are packing for Bear Protection (for fishing??). My very close friend and Guide in Alaska always said never put your rifle/shotgun down to shoot a bear with a pistol...... Good Luck.I think a properly mounted scope will always out-perform open sights..... Good Luck.

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from righthandedhammer wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

to georgescrap the 94, get a savage. better trigger, better accuracy, better value.(IMO) winchester should have taken some cues from savage when corporate sunk all they had into one gun to save the downward spiral down the ter-let.

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from george wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I recently bought a Winchester 94 AE in .44 mag graded "excellent" ( 98%) . Then I got an 1873 Colt in .44 mag so I could pack a single ammo.My first goal was to have something to keep bears at bay. I'm having a lot of trouble getting any info on shooting characteristics. There are no forums. Hornady does not make a new flat-trajectory .44 rifle round . Winchester seems to have the best ballistics with 1362/988 at 100 yds. I'm taking the guns in May to a wild hog hunt at Tejon Ranch. I have ordered scope mounts from Cabela's to see how those fit up.Questions:1. I'm shooting the mags in both pistol and rifle. Can I really use the same rounds in both guns with good effect ?2. Will these guns stop a bear ? A wild hog ?3. What is the highest ballistic ratio ammo I can get for these guns?4. This 94 is accurate. I feel the scope can only improve this . What do you guys think?

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from dw wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

OK, as a died in the wool pre-64 guy (I have a 2 transition models) I'll give you those points. Well argued.However, for me the pre-64 mdl 70 always wins aesthetically (sp?) and they've all been more accurate than me (sub-minute of deer,elk,moose).The challenge for you is to look at the same 1000 70's and 700's and evaluate the relative look, feel and lines. You'll be hard pressed to find a nice used 700 without some tacky Remington white line spacer, cheesy checkering and even tackier Remington factory stock finish. On the other hand, the 70's will almost certainly be something you'll be as happy to hunt with as you will to place in the front row of your case at home.point, counterpoint, see you at the pot belly stove and buy you a cup of joe while we argue this one till opening day.cheers,dw

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from DINFOS 2001 wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Ditto on the Savage, PbHead. Don't mean to change the subject Mr. Petzal, but just for grins last year I bought a Stevens 200 in .223 (as most know a savage 110 for all purposes) for $250. It is by far the cheapest, and most accurate, factory rifle that I own.

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from PbHead wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

OK Dave, next lets hear about the Savage 110 line. They are ugly, cheap, simple and as common as dirt. But as far as out of the box accuracy goes, they can't be beat. I suggest spending $400 on a Savage 110, $600 on a scope and $150 on ammo for practice.

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from John May wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dave, how can you say that? When Win made the 70 the right way there was no comparison. The 700 was meant to be and always will be a cheaper alternative to the 70. Winchester went out of business b/c people weren't willing to pay the price for quality often enough. Granted, towards the end, the 70 was shoddy and poorly put together, but you can't put every 70 into that group.

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from rudy reinholz wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

i've shot 70' 700' and a lot of oyhers the 70s in my favorit calibre the 270 shot groups of 1 3/4 groips while the 700 rem. shot 11/4 to 1 1/2 groups both sometimes closer with win. shells or rem. shells now the savages always shot better always 1inch or less also jack oconners got me going like back in the 50s had to have a 70 in the 270 glad of the savages rudy

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I think most snipers are using 700's or Sako Actions not model 70's.......

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from Freak in the Woods wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

There maybe some snipers that used Model 70's that would call you out on the carpet on this one Petzal.

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from John B. wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dammit Dave, I could have told you that years ago!

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from SteveC wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Once you move into discussions of better or best, the debate defaults more to emotion than reason.The Model 70 was the first rifle I ever bought new, manufactured in 1977. It was as reliable as anvil, accurate as I’d ever need it, and fulfilled everything real and imagine I required of it. I didn’t buy it because it was better that anything else. I bought it because Winchesters were what I grew up with as a boy in Arizona (I never even heard of a Remington 700 until I was thirteen).Whether or not the Remington 700 is better than a Winchester Model 700 is a matter of opinion. People seldom buy guns because they’ve done an exhaustive and analytical research and built a spreadsheet to justify their purchase. People buy guns based on things like tangibles like finances or intangibles like emotions.The practical difference between most guns, custom or factory, Model 700 vs. Model 70, is all but lost for 99% of the hunters out there. As far as accuracy being what a rifle is all about, that's a rather hollow statement unless you're taking strictly about match shooting. For the average shooter, accuracy is effected more by mental errors, training, practice, physical condition, experience, weather, comfort zone, ammunition, quality of sight/scope, and a host of other things long before the inherent accuracy of the rifle itself comes into play.Good guns are where you find them. So are good guns that shoot well.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

!!! That is using Match .308 Ammo.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Michael,The Mannlicher will stay hotter longer, I have a .308 Sako with the Mannlicher stock and on the 3rd shot if I do not let it cool it will throw the shot.It opens the group up to 1". If I let it cool (3 minutes betweeen shots) it will hold a 3/8" group.. Just FYI.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

To Michael: That is very fancy shooting. Let me know how the CZ does.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Well Dave you have nailed it again. I had a real bad experience with a Model 70 XTR chambered in 300 Win mag.I was hunting in Kodiak for Bear, (At the I was a Sailor....USCG)…. I came across a good bear (solo hunting). I got so excited I pushed the safety off and broke the damn safety lever; needless to say I was unable to take a shot at a bear only 40 yards away. I sat there and almost cried watching this bear just walk away (while unarmed)......I sold the gun the week after Winchester closed it doors for a premium. I did not understand why there was a buying frenzy for these guns. Did anybody go out and buy Yugo's when the disappeared???? They went out of business for a reason.

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from Michael wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

"Only accurate rifles are interesting." I've forgotten who said that Dave; probably one of your earlier contemporaries. Forgetting this axiom, I traded a Tikka T3 6.5x55 that was one of the most accurate rifles I've owned simply because I didn't like the composite magazine, triggerguard, and bolt shroud. A Baikal combo 12ga. over 7x57 rimmed I have will consistently put three Sellier&Bellot 173gr. factory rounds into one cloverleaf hole at 50 yds.with the factory iron sights and my 50 plus year old eyes. Pretty? no. Accurate and deadly? Hell yes. I plan on replacing the Tikka with a CZ 550 mannlicher in 6.5x55. What do you think, Dave?

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from Brian Robinson wrote 4 years 33 weeks ago

I have broke two Rem 700 extractors on two different rifles,, it is the oddest feeling when you go to chamber a new round and all you get is the bolt by itself.. Besides the cheesy extractor and safety,,, you get a rifle that is almost as exciting as your grandmothers 1991 buick. When you pick up a pre 64 model 70 ,, you can tell you have something special, something rare in your hands. Given a choice who would choose a 700 over a pre 64 winchester?

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from carl s wrote 4 years 33 weeks ago

that is the reason the best sniper rifle in the world is built on a model 700 remington rec.the model m40 sniper rifle.

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from Jack Zeller wrote 5 years 42 weeks ago

I had a model 742 Remington in 30-06 and carried it for years. It was exremely accurate, 3/4 inch groups all day long with Remington factory ammo. But it was heavy and I sold it and got a Win. Model 70 featherweight (30-06)in 1992. That rifle weighs 6 pounds, and shoots 1 inch groups all day long with 165 grainers (factory ammo). Maybe I just got lucky but I wouldn't trade this Model 70 for 2000.00 bucks!

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from mark wrote 6 years 9 weeks ago

Why are the pre 64 Win 30.06 so much more expensive than say a Rem .300 Win Mag 700??

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from David Hendrix wrote 6 years 18 weeks ago

I had a M-14 Grand Match, At 300 meters i keep a 2.5 to6 " gropdingI would love to purchace on againDavid M Hendrux

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from Gary Nelson wrote 6 years 19 weeks ago

The 257 Roberts has sometimes been referred to as the "most useful rifle cartridge ever developed". That is not very far wrong. It is suitable for a wide range of hunting under a variety of conditions. As a long range varmint cartridge it is only slightly inferior to the newer 6mm's. On deer, antelope, black bear, sheep or goat it is completely adequate. Naturally, it is not as powerful as the 270 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield but has ample power for the game mentioned at all practical ranges.Originally the 257 Roberts was underloaded by ammunition companies. However, in the late 1980's higher pressure +P loads were introduced which enabled factory loaded 257 Roberts ammunition to reach full potential. With 117 or 120 grain boattail bullets at velocities at 2800 fps the 257 can be used successfully on elk and caribou. It is at this end of the scale that it has its advantage over the 6mm's.

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from J. Woodson wrote 6 years 23 weeks ago

What is the difference in a 257 Roberts and a 257Roberts +P

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from james reinhardt wrote 6 years 38 weeks ago

DO YOU THINK THE 22-250 WOULD BE ABLE TO DROP AN ANTELOPE?

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from John wrote 6 years 42 weeks ago

Had a 700 once, the broad side of the barn is still safe. Sold all my Remingtons, rifles & shotguns, bought Winchester and Ruger. All rifles shoot through the key hole of the barn door.

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from Clay Cooper wrote 6 years 43 weeks ago

The Remington 700?I bought my first 700BDL at TG&Y back in 73 when I was 18. To this day, I have replaced 3 barrels in that rifle. Today I still have that rifle pluss another 700BDL and a 03-A3 Remington. Never had a single problem.Out of all my hunting and competition experience, I got to say the 700 Remington, is in fact the most reliable and most accurate rifle out of the box today. I have assisted hundreds of hunters on the range equipping their rifle by installing scopes, other accessories and sighting them in. All of them were a snap to do. They all shot 1MOA or less.No additional tweaking is necessary, unless you want to lighten up the trigger pull.When you by any chance you do have a problem, contacting Remington for warranty or special services, they are by far the best. They just take care of it without any hassle, Period! Take Ruger’s rifle customer service, your screwed! They will fight you tooth and nail.There was a European Gun Manufacturer touring U.S. Gun Manufacturers. He was asked what he thought of U.S. made firearms. His reply? “UNFINISHED”!All the firearms I have bought and shot, I have to agree that the European Gun Manufacturer is 100 percent correct in his one word statement, “UNFINISHED” with the exception of Remington rifles.Clay Cooper

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from Dr. Ralph wrote 6 years 43 weeks ago

Growing up in the sixties I never really understood the rifleman's rifle. Remington's were cheaper, more accurate, and I thought they were beautiful. Nothing ugly about it unlike the Savages. Of course I have never been one to go with public opinion, I make my own decisions. Now I think the Weatherby Vanguard is great. They're cheap, accurate, and I think they're beautiful. I don't want a furniture grade piece of wood to hunt with, my treestand will scratch the heck out of it first time anyway. If you're buying guns to look at get a No. 1 like I did and set it up front in the cabinet...

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from FLOYD PHILLIPS wrote 6 years 43 weeks ago

WHAT ABT THE CANADIAN SNIPER THAT KILLED A TALIBAN AT A CONFIRMED 2430 METERS , THATS ALMOST 2.5 KILOMETERS OR 1.5 MILES.HARD TO BELIEVE !!!

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from FLOYD PHILLIPS wrote 6 years 43 weeks ago
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from sam wrote 7 years 1 week ago

i have my dads first big game rifle its a remington 742, yall knoe the old school 742 with the metal but plate, anyway my girlfriends dad is the retired head officer of the marine corp sniper school, in quantico Va. we took my rifle which has a 1-4x leopold, chambered in 30-06, my model 70 .270, and my dads model 700 7mag out to the sherrifs dept. firing range, out to 250 yards all 3 rifles would hold sub moa groups. i wasnt shooting, girlfriends dad was. at 300 yards the model 70 lost its grouping and it started grouping at well over an inch, while the 742 still held about a 1" group. the 700 isnt worth mentioning it held sub moa groups bast 500 yards. but for my purposes any of the 3 rifles would work, i will admitt that i was astounded by the accurasy of the 742. we also shot my friends 243 i believe that its a model 788 it would hold right at moa out to 200 yards then it went all over the place. but for my money i loke a remington i have grown up on them and they just feel right for some reason, also it helps that if i miss with one of my rifles i know it wasnt the rifle it was me, and all 3 of the rifles in my family shoot a hell of a lot better than i do out to about 300 yards.

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from Roger Reeves wrote 7 years 2 weeks ago

Remington bought several import Co.s last year. Some were excellent made guns. However, once Remington bought out the importers and offering for sale, I notice the price nearly doubled.Remington now even offers a Mauser action firearm?????. Remington could bite off a tad more than they can chew. They should stick with the 700's and forget buying all the small cheaper price importers. I just hope Rmington don;t skimp on the 700 and it bites the dust as Winchester did with the WSM's, etc. All the rave of the later 70's in WSM's and very light firearms did not last long. A light gun in a small caliber may be ok, but for say a 30-06 and larger, you need a gun in the 8 to 10 lb range. The heavier to me is better acuracy. I want my hunt gun to be in the 8-10lb range and when the cross-wires meet the vitals, fire. Weight does stabalize the front end of a firearm. I prefer any additional wt to be from the action back, as my arms are very weak and cannot hold a gun steady for long.With the wt on the shulder, it solves that heavy front-end and helps you stabalize your shot. Some firearms fit each of us different. To my built and gun handling, a Remington in 700 or a ll00 when I put to my shoulder, it kinda falls on to the target right away. The 70's I had did not do that, felt awkward to me. A gun has to feel a extention of your arm when you throw it up to your shoulder. Good hunting with what-ever you use. Thats why so many different one's mfgered. For the money you may have to spend, a Savage is hard to beat.May not be the most beautiful gun made, but they do shoot well and accurate. If a Savage gets scratched or few dings, you not gonna cry, just hunt another day.After all is said and done. Any gun is Ok if you out in the wide open spaces relaxing and enjoying whats available.Some of my best hunts, I never fired a shot.Don;t forget to pratice, Pratice, Pratice, then you will know where your gun will hit the target on each shot.Hey, lets all gone hunting in AM.Roger

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from shepdogwv wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Speaking of comparing Win. and Remington. Does anyone else have a push feed Mod. 70? I have one in '06 and also have a Rem 700 in 7mm-08 and I was just wondering what the quality difference between the two push feed actions are.

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from Roger Reeves wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

When I told a good writer friend of mine that I had bought a Winc. 70 in 300 WSM he only said, don;t sell any of your now owned long actions hunting rifles, as if you do you will regreat it. The WSM's and WSSM's will be short lived and the old faithful guns will always be a hunters gun of choice. Hard-headed as I am, I had to give a 300 WSM a try, only took me 3 shots to realize my writer friend knew what he was talking about. So, sold, traded all the short, big belly guns and bought regular old time calibes in Remington 700's and 2 Savage's due to the price and to haul around on my 4 x 4 and pickup. Being handicapped, I hunt from a vehicle( I have a legal permit) and a gun you haul around on a 4 wheeler takes beating by limbs, briars, etc. For serious Rocky Mtn hunting, my 700 CDL's go with me as well as the 25-06 I;ve owned for many years. Gun mfgers realize us hunter's are a crazy lot, so they mfger all these new guns, calibers for us to buy.For dependable firearms, stay with the Remington 700 and the Savages. O' you can spend thousands of $$$$ but if the bullet don;t strike the vitals, does not matter if it cost $400.00 or $4K Good hunting, Roger

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from george wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Thanks to you guys who responded about the Winchester 94. This IS a great thread . It is clear that , if the gun..any gun... is reasonably accurate and sound mechanically , after that, affection for the arm makes the rest of the difference. I have all that in my 94AE . Thanks again.BTW...the California DFG on-line has an amazing wild pig book which is a free download and is very , very complete and interesting. It even includes tables of recommended gun calibers and loads .

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from Roger Reeves wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

The articles written on the Savage is very interesting: In my part of the country,Savage is not even referred to as a gun. WHY???? I can;t tell you.I do know its a simple firearm, not fancy, but does shot well. For less than $400.00 you can get a great Savage with Accutrigger, etc. Can;t wait till my Stevens 200 in 223 (clone of the Savage ll0,)arrives, as will use the 223 at groundhogs, and hopefully this fall some P/D's out west. I do believe one reason the Savage in my area is so un-popular, is all of my Buddies, spoiled on the Rems and Wincheseters as the only guns mfgered.@ndly, Savage sells many firearms, and a lot has to do with price. Can buy a new Savage, or Stevens for less money than a used Rem. or Winch.I'm 72 yrs old,disabled/handcapped and have hunted a lot, but know little about guns. What I want in my shooting guns, is accuracy and dependability at the shot. It takes lots of pratice and the best Ammo available to achieve greatness. Been to the Rockies about every year for past l5 yrs, and killed Elk, Mulies, W-tails, Antelopes. All were killed with some caliber by Remington, most were with the 30-06. NOTE::::: Need some advice from you B/P hunters. I own a CVA Hunterbolt, I use 2, 50 gr. Poyrodex and the Powerbelt sabots. After the first shot there is residue of powder left in the bbl. Then its impossible to reload with the bullet going all the way down. I called CVA and they told me to swab out the bbl with moisture from my mouth on a clean patch befor re-loading.Who has the time to do all that when hunting and a 2nd shot is needed immediately. I never had this problem with my T/C 54 Cal Hawken, but was using Pyrodex loose powder and Buffalo Croncals. Any suggestions guys. I hate to trade this gun off, as it's scoped and the first shot is within bulls eye at l50 yds, and 2-3" pattern at 200 yds,.Is this a pattern on 24" verses 28" bbls? or is it the Pellets and Sabots I;m using. Any suggestions appreciated.;;;;; Any of you guys tried the Rossie break-action B/P in 50 cal? At the price,(I love the way it loads) can;t see paying X#$ more for a new T/C, of which I know the quality is better. Suppose at my age, do;t want all the guns made, just one of each. Good hunting guys.I will continue to hunt large game with my Rem CDL in 30-06, as it fits my style shooting better than any other guns I;ve tried,or owned. Suppose that;s why so many different guns mfgered, right?

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from tay wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

just wanted to put more pressure on Dave to recognize the savage 110. As far as factory rifles go they will outshoot anything and are easier on the wallet. Not that money has ever been an issue to Petzal.

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from JB wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I can't find the reference again, but I remember reading that one of the reasons the Marines went to the mod 700 over the 70 was ease of machining. Basically all sniper rifles are trued and re-barreled by USMC Armorers. For this to be done on a 700 action is a simple matter in a lathe, while the 70 is very much more difficult to blueprint.I've never owned a model 70, but I did have a 670 in .270 Win that shot better than I could.I own a couple of 700's and they are both far more accurate than I need for my hunting adventures.I bought a Savage for my son this past Christmas. That accutrigger is one heck of a deal. That gun shoots! If you miss with that one, you sure don't get to blame the rifle. Nope, no way.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

To Dick Gunlogson: Good to hear from you.To evryone: When Mr. Gunlogson sends in a post, read it carefully. He didn't say so, but he has just retired after 50 years as an Alaska guide/outfitter.I didn't throw Savage into this blog, but I believe they make the most accurate rifles of anyone. (Tikka might be as good, but I haven't shot that many.) Savage pays an amazing amount of attention to the barrel, and to the concentricity of the barrel and receiver, and now, of course they have the Accu-Trigger as well.A couple of years ago, I was hunting prairie dogs as the guest of a company that made very expensive rifles, and I asked two of the guys who worked in the shop what they hunted with. "Savages," they both said.However, don't look for a return of the rotary-magazine Model 99. Ron Coburn says that there are too many used 99s out there as competition, and that even with all the advances in manufacture, it's still too expensive to produce.

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from Mark wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I’ve had a number of Model 70’s and 700’s. I have to agree Model 70’s are inconsistent and vary widely in quality from what I’ve seen. I still have a Model 70 in 458 that’s excellent. I had a good Model 70 in Featherweight in 7mm Mauser. I also had a 700 in 7mm Mauser that tended to be more accurate than the Winchester. Why, I’m not certain. The Winchester did have a slightly different twist.I think what gets me on Remington’s is there’s so many models. Some are certainly utilitarian; others leave me scratching my head asking, “Why?” The Remington Classics are a case in point. I think these are cheap, lousy rifles for the price compared to the CDL and early Mountain rifles.I look at some of the asking prices for the used Winchesters in disbelief when I recall some of the quality of these rifles I’ve seen. Anyone best not buy a Model 70 sight-unseen.I’m seldom impressed with rifles brought out in new calibers. Shooters are a trending lot. They’ll buy something new just to try out. The major manufacturer’s know it and count on selling 100,000 copies of any new rifle/cartridge combination they bring out

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from Larry Rayburn wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

This is in reply to your statement That Remington 700 rifles are better than the Win. Model 70: Amen Brother, Amen. In my opnion, I have always thought that they only make two kinds of rifles, Remington, and them other kind.

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from Larry Rayburn wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

This is in reply to your statement That Remington 700 rifles are better than the Win. Model 70: Amen Brother, Amen. In my opnion, I have always thought that they only make two kinds of rifles, Remington, and them other kind.

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from Roger Reeves wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I love those Remingtons. My first big-game rifle? was a Winchester 94; 30-30. I then wanted something larger, so bought a Remington Auto, which I used for many years. My first trip to the Rockies on a Elk hunt I killed a 6 x 6 @250 yds with the Remingotn 742. My 2nd trip West, the guide would not allow me to keep one in the chamber till ready to fire. As you know eject a round from the magazine on a Auto and let the action go down on is own, it makes a noise you can hear for 2 miles. So, next year I bought a new Remington 700 CDL in 30-06. This gun will shoot 3 rounds at 200 yds, that you can cover with a quarter. LAst year I killed a 4 x 4 Deer at 345 yds l shot. All my hunting guns zeroed in @200 yds. The bullet only dropped 4 " in 345 yds. On the same trip, I used my 700 Classic 25-06 for Lopes in Wy. Shot a Antelope at 325 yds,again one shot. I;ve had the Remington 25-06 for over 30 yds, and is more accurate than the 30-06.I did buy a Winchester 70 in 300 WSM when the WSM's first came out. Shot it 3 times, found it a new home, what a hunk of junk it was. I have little doubt as to why Wincheser ceased to mfg the 70. In my book, the Remington CDL is a fine firearm, much more shoot-able and accurate than the 700 BDL.AS for the Stevens 200 ( a old Savage ll0 brought back to life) I have a a order in for l in 223 and l in 25-06 for a haul around. Not really found of the Grey color of the stock, but at less than 275.00 can;t expect a 700. A little black and brown paint will enhance the color a lot. If not satisfied will stock coloring, will restock with a Boyds Walnut stock, as I do prefer Wood verses the light wt syns. Like a nice car, I want my guns to look good and preform flawless when hunting. With the cost of a hunting trip to the Rockies, I need/want a accurate, dependable firearm, topped with a Nikon Monarch 3 x 9 x 40 scope.Lastly but far for less importance is the Ammo we use. Its ok to use cheapo for pratice and zeoring to a point. But for the hunt, buy the very best Ammo you can find. I use Remingtons new Bonded 30-06; l80 gr Scricco's and for the 25-06 use Winchester Ballistic tips for W-tails , Lopes and 85 grs fo smaller game. good hunting. If never owned or shot a Remington, try one out, you may like better than the Wincheser 70's I did. I am told by my Gunsmith, that he builds more custome guns using Remington Actions, than any other action, including the Mauser's . If you don;t own a Remington 700, the next trip to the range, club and you see a guy shooting one, ask him to allow you to give it a shot? Sure you will be pleased. Load it from the magazine, do not just drop one into the chamber, which you can, not like some Winchesters or Mausers. Good luck, Roger Reeves, N.Carolina.

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from Robert L. miller wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I have used a Model 700 for the past20 years, NEVER have I had a problem. Beautiful rifle.

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from Robert L. miller wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I have used a Model 700 for the past20 years, NEVER have I had a problem. Beautiful rifle.

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from Scott wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Hey, this is a great thread! Had a Win. of that model in 22.250 for about 2 weeks. Found that it wouldn't do more than 1.5 inches at a hundred yards. SO...I promptly traded it on an ancient 40X Remington in 30 cal. Used it to take a pasture poodle out at 749 steps.That was a great day. Remington is where it's at folks. Short the "custom made" rifle, it's the action for most all our military and police precision shooting.

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from Michael wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I hated the model 70 I had, but I just sold it for 3 times what I paid, so NOW it is a GREAT rifle. I like my daughters 700, but I take my Savages any day of the week!

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from Michael wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

The original Remington Model 700 mountain rifle (floorplate, not DM) was one of the finest 700 variations ever made. I've never understood why Remington dropped it. Now you can only get it in a laminated stock version. I had mountain rifles in .280, 7x57, .257 Roberts,(rechambered to .257 Ackley; Jeez, that one would group for 3 shots!)& 7mm08. Everyone of mine would shoot well.I wish Remington would bring back the original 700 Mountain Rifle. They go for a premium at gun shows when I can find one.

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from O Garcia wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

If the Remington 700 has a fault, it's that it is difficult to give it the "classic look". Overall, it is not as straight and sleek as the Winchester or Mauser. The pistol grip is too steep, and the trigger group/magazine box too deep. I'm not sure if I'm making my point well, if I'm saying it correctly. I guess you'll have to compare both rifles, either thru pictures or right in front of you. The Winchester is clearly more handsome. You can make a rapier-like or wand-like Winchester, but the Remington will always have a fat belly.I am left wondering why Remington could make other model numbers "straighter" (the short lived Models 725 and 673 Guide Gun) but not the 700.On the other hand, the 700's much-maligned extractor works right out of the box, and requires very little sophistication from the gunmaker in order to function. The CRF extractors of Mausers and Winchesters are indeed wonderful things, but they need to be properly tuned to the round, a much more difficult and sophisticated process than is usually realized by buyers (I'm borrowing Ross Seyfried's words here).Concerning accuracy, out of the box accuracy doesn't seem to matter to custom builders because Remingtons are almost always the building block for any custom rifle that is designed to be very accurate, in spite of the fact that Savages and Browning A-Bolts are more accurate out of the box. Whether that's simply a force of habit (gunsmiths are simply more familiar with Remington than Savage or Browning) or actual confidence in the design, I don't know. But when US snipers need a rifle, it's usually based on a Remington. Oh yes, Winchester Model 70s did serve USMC snipers early in Vietnam, but by the time of Carlos Hathcock's 2nd tour, the only Model 70 part on their rifles was the steel floorplate/trigger guard. The rest of the action was Remington 700.I suppose John Plaster's words said it best: "it's tough to beat the old trusty Remington 700."

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from JimmieD wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I own several 700's and a couple of Sako's. Only have one model 70 still with me and it has a Pac-Nor barrel. With all the tweaking and messing with loads to find the sweet spot, it still doesn't shoot like the Remington 700 LTR or 700 M24. If I was shopping for accuracy and didn't want to pay a gunsmith a kings ransom to get a model 70 to shoot, I would get a Remington 700 LTR in 308. I have one that will shoot a dime @ 100 yards all day long (if I do my part). If you are a real accuracy nut, buy a Remington M24 in 308. I finally saved enough bucks for the M24 and it is what they claim, a real shooter, heavy as an anchor but shoots the way we gun guys all dream about.

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from FH wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

In all of my years in competative shooting, I've never seen a model 70 at a Bench Rest Match. Never noticed one at a silouett competition. I have seen plenty of Remington 700's at both(bench rest XP-100 variant). I've noticed that while some people swear by the model 70 they aren't the people I see at the range that often, same with Weatherby's. The 700's I've known, tend to group like Nolan Ryan Fastballs.(Hall of Fame for both)

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from Artry wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

My winchesters (model 94 in 30-30 and late model 70 in 7 mag) are more accurate than I am. That's good enough for me.

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from Mike Diehl wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I once owned a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30. It had a trajectory approximating a rifle grenade and at 50 yards it grouped about as well as a bunch of Phil Niekro knuckleballs. That's when I resolved never to buy another Winchester.

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from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I had a "post64" winchester rifle, the Westerner model with a 24" barrel. It shot well,accurate, and handled a host of handloads nicely.Now, unless we are taking sniper course required accuracy here,I still believe the Mod-70 is a good hunting rifle. Most hunters I know barely fire a dozen rounds thru them in a year, sight it in before hunting season, shoot a deer, read this blog and say the the H*ll are these guys taking about?I sold my 70 out of financial need, and replaced it with a lever action, but I wouldn't mind buying another if the opportunity arose?

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from David Honish wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

It was Townsend Whelen who said only accurate rifles are interesting.The US Army did comparison shoot offs with off the shelf and modified M700 & M70 rifles for use as sniper rifles during the Viet Nam War. The M700 was found to be more reliable, durable, and accurate. The push feed action allows centering of the round in the chamber for better accuracy, as opposed to being forced in by 'controlled feed.' Hard to argue with what works.Want to stir up a real hornet's nest? Ask why the ballistically more efficient .280 REM is outsold by the .270 WIN? "No cartridge is as good as Jack O'Connor said the .270 WIN was." Finn Aagard

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from Dick Gunlogson wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dave,I have quite a few of both 70s and 700s in cal from .222 to 458. I bought an 70(the Alaskan,.338) in '59 and added it to my other assorted belongings and headed for AK. Been here ever since. After becoming an active Big Game Guide that was my personal backup gun for polar, brown and grizzly hunts, using the original factory .300 gr bullet. It has, probably, been in attendance at more bear kills than most any gun (ner) I know of today. I bought a 700 .222 in early 60's and with it killed upward to a thousand hair seals when there was a bounty as well as a valuable hide. Out of the box sub MOA gun. Surprising, however, how your concentration improves when every shot is for MONEY. I also have a 700-7mag which was set into a very early Chet Brown kevlar stock. It has taken a Grand Slam with 5 shots total. Two were 1" apart in the Rocky ram. When I planned my Marco Polo hunt, due to much talk of 500yd + shots, I had my friend at Rem. (Tim McCormick) send me a 700 in .300UM which was out of the box MOA. Turned out my 7M would have been fine as I killed the ram at a ranged 385yds. In my fifty years in the field (near 45 guiding) reliability of either has not been problem. In this forum I would gather there is more than an abundance of capable shooters. However, as a guide, I would say a good percentage of the clients would benefit more from practice than from seeking the 'ultimate' weapon.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

FYI:The United States Marine Corps used the pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 bolt-action rifles as their standard-issue sniper rifle from the 1950's, until they were replaced by the Remington Model 700 series bolt-action rifles in the mid-1960's in which the Remington Model 700 became the basis for the M40 series sniper rifle that is in current U.S. Marine Corps service today.One of the reasons why the U.S. Marine Corps replaced their Winchester Model 70s was that the post-1964 variants of the Model 70 did not meet up to the U.S. Marines' standards, thus they were replaced. Despite the introduction of the Remington Model 700 rifle, the pre '64 Winchester Model 70 were still used by the US Marine Corps' scout/sniper teams during the Vietnam War alongside the Remington Model 700 rifles. The original wood stocks were found to be warping in both rifles after a few years of service, and were given fiberglass stocks to remedy the problem. Existing Model 70s still in service have had their stocks replaced with a McMillan fiberglass stock, such as that found on the Custom Extreme Weather variant [5].One of the best known U.S. Marine Corps snipers who used the Winchester Model 70 as their preferred sniper rifle during the Vietnam War was Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock who used a Winchester Model 70 sniper rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield as his sniper rifle of choice (The Winchester Model 70s the U.S. Marine Corps used before adopting the Remington Model 700 were chambered in .308 WINCHESTER).SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_70

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from PbHead wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Good thread Dave. Could you expound on which rifle actions require the most "skilled" hand assembly? My guess would be the Remington and Savage bolt actions require the least, Winchester the most and Ruger some where in the middle. I do not know enough about the Browning A-Bolt or the Weatherbys to comment.

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from HGHunter wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I have a Remington 700 in .30-06 and a Winchester model 70 in 7MM and they both fill a nitch. I have to say I get better groups with my Remington 700 over the model 70 at 100 yards. So I have to agree, but I would rather not have to take a 300+ yard shot with the .30-06 just due to the caliber.

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from John N Schoen wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

My Remington 700/243 was the reason I gave up woodchuck hunting. The rifle was so accurate as to be scary; three shots at 100 yards could be covered with a dime. Any chuck out to 300+ yards was a dead chuck. Basically it was no longer a challenge! Handloads were used---IMR3030/Zippedo HP(Nosler?). Does anyone out there remenber using these bullets?Also I agree with the comments on the Savage 110. I have the base model in 30-06. Not as accurate as the Remington but out of the box with factory ammo MOA groups. Good enough for my aging eyes!

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from Sarg wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dave, do snipers really use the model 70??? Being retired Army, I've never seen any sniper use anything but 700s or M-14s in .308, maybe a.50 cal, but mostly the700. Must be something here....

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from Sarg wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I have owned and use A model 700 in .308 for 25+ years. I bought the ADL because I'm not really fond of any thing under the stock (floor plate). I load my own ammo (150gr. Sierra SP./ IMR 3031 powder) and have never had any problems with this Rifle. I don't believe I would ever buy anything else.

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from Bill Acord wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dave,I have 10 pre-64 Model 70 rifles, about 3 Remington Model 700 rifles, and 2 Savage bolt actions.The Savage rifles will outshoot all of my other rifles. What Savage has going for it is that their President, Ron Coburn, is both a businessman and a hunter.If they would only offer a takedown kit with extra barrels.Then I would like to see them join with Pine Tree Castings and bring back the Model 99.Thanks.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

George,Here's my 2 cents. Buy what shoots best for the rifle. Then use those bullets for the bear protection. In most instances bears shot in self defense are done at really close range (10 yards or less). Personally I like a pump 12 gauge for Bear protection (alternating 00 buck and slug 10 round Mossbergs). That is also what the Fish & Game in Alaska uses. Not sure where you are packing for Bear Protection (for fishing??). My very close friend and Guide in Alaska always said never put your rifle/shotgun down to shoot a bear with a pistol...... Good Luck.I think a properly mounted scope will always out-perform open sights..... Good Luck.

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from righthandedhammer wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

to georgescrap the 94, get a savage. better trigger, better accuracy, better value.(IMO) winchester should have taken some cues from savage when corporate sunk all they had into one gun to save the downward spiral down the ter-let.

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from george wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I recently bought a Winchester 94 AE in .44 mag graded "excellent" ( 98%) . Then I got an 1873 Colt in .44 mag so I could pack a single ammo.My first goal was to have something to keep bears at bay. I'm having a lot of trouble getting any info on shooting characteristics. There are no forums. Hornady does not make a new flat-trajectory .44 rifle round . Winchester seems to have the best ballistics with 1362/988 at 100 yds. I'm taking the guns in May to a wild hog hunt at Tejon Ranch. I have ordered scope mounts from Cabela's to see how those fit up.Questions:1. I'm shooting the mags in both pistol and rifle. Can I really use the same rounds in both guns with good effect ?2. Will these guns stop a bear ? A wild hog ?3. What is the highest ballistic ratio ammo I can get for these guns?4. This 94 is accurate. I feel the scope can only improve this . What do you guys think?

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from dw wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

OK, as a died in the wool pre-64 guy (I have a 2 transition models) I'll give you those points. Well argued.However, for me the pre-64 mdl 70 always wins aesthetically (sp?) and they've all been more accurate than me (sub-minute of deer,elk,moose).The challenge for you is to look at the same 1000 70's and 700's and evaluate the relative look, feel and lines. You'll be hard pressed to find a nice used 700 without some tacky Remington white line spacer, cheesy checkering and even tackier Remington factory stock finish. On the other hand, the 70's will almost certainly be something you'll be as happy to hunt with as you will to place in the front row of your case at home.point, counterpoint, see you at the pot belly stove and buy you a cup of joe while we argue this one till opening day.cheers,dw

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from DINFOS 2001 wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Ditto on the Savage, PbHead. Don't mean to change the subject Mr. Petzal, but just for grins last year I bought a Stevens 200 in .223 (as most know a savage 110 for all purposes) for $250. It is by far the cheapest, and most accurate, factory rifle that I own.

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from PbHead wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

OK Dave, next lets hear about the Savage 110 line. They are ugly, cheap, simple and as common as dirt. But as far as out of the box accuracy goes, they can't be beat. I suggest spending $400 on a Savage 110, $600 on a scope and $150 on ammo for practice.

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from John May wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dave, how can you say that? When Win made the 70 the right way there was no comparison. The 700 was meant to be and always will be a cheaper alternative to the 70. Winchester went out of business b/c people weren't willing to pay the price for quality often enough. Granted, towards the end, the 70 was shoddy and poorly put together, but you can't put every 70 into that group.

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from rudy reinholz wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

i've shot 70' 700' and a lot of oyhers the 70s in my favorit calibre the 270 shot groups of 1 3/4 groips while the 700 rem. shot 11/4 to 1 1/2 groups both sometimes closer with win. shells or rem. shells now the savages always shot better always 1inch or less also jack oconners got me going like back in the 50s had to have a 70 in the 270 glad of the savages rudy

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

I think most snipers are using 700's or Sako Actions not model 70's.......

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from Freak in the Woods wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

There maybe some snipers that used Model 70's that would call you out on the carpet on this one Petzal.

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from John B. wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Dammit Dave, I could have told you that years ago!

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from SteveC wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Once you move into discussions of better or best, the debate defaults more to emotion than reason.The Model 70 was the first rifle I ever bought new, manufactured in 1977. It was as reliable as anvil, accurate as I’d ever need it, and fulfilled everything real and imagine I required of it. I didn’t buy it because it was better that anything else. I bought it because Winchesters were what I grew up with as a boy in Arizona (I never even heard of a Remington 700 until I was thirteen).Whether or not the Remington 700 is better than a Winchester Model 700 is a matter of opinion. People seldom buy guns because they’ve done an exhaustive and analytical research and built a spreadsheet to justify their purchase. People buy guns based on things like tangibles like finances or intangibles like emotions.The practical difference between most guns, custom or factory, Model 700 vs. Model 70, is all but lost for 99% of the hunters out there. As far as accuracy being what a rifle is all about, that's a rather hollow statement unless you're taking strictly about match shooting. For the average shooter, accuracy is effected more by mental errors, training, practice, physical condition, experience, weather, comfort zone, ammunition, quality of sight/scope, and a host of other things long before the inherent accuracy of the rifle itself comes into play.Good guns are where you find them. So are good guns that shoot well.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

!!! That is using Match .308 Ammo.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Michael,The Mannlicher will stay hotter longer, I have a .308 Sako with the Mannlicher stock and on the 3rd shot if I do not let it cool it will throw the shot.It opens the group up to 1". If I let it cool (3 minutes betweeen shots) it will hold a 3/8" group.. Just FYI.

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from Dave Petzal wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

To Michael: That is very fancy shooting. Let me know how the CZ does.

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from tom wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

Well Dave you have nailed it again. I had a real bad experience with a Model 70 XTR chambered in 300 Win mag.I was hunting in Kodiak for Bear, (At the I was a Sailor....USCG)…. I came across a good bear (solo hunting). I got so excited I pushed the safety off and broke the damn safety lever; needless to say I was unable to take a shot at a bear only 40 yards away. I sat there and almost cried watching this bear just walk away (while unarmed)......I sold the gun the week after Winchester closed it doors for a premium. I did not understand why there was a buying frenzy for these guns. Did anybody go out and buy Yugo's when the disappeared???? They went out of business for a reason.

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from Michael wrote 7 years 3 weeks ago

"Only accurate rifles are interesting." I've forgotten who said that Dave; probably one of your earlier contemporaries. Forgetting this axiom, I traded a Tikka T3 6.5x55 that was one of the most accurate rifles I've owned simply because I didn't like the composite magazine, triggerguard, and bolt shroud. A Baikal combo 12ga. over 7x57 rimmed I have will consistently put three Sellier&Bellot 173gr. factory rounds into one cloverleaf hole at 50 yds.with the factory iron sights and my 50 plus year old eyes. Pretty? no. Accurate and deadly? Hell yes. I plan on replacing the Tikka with a CZ 550 mannlicher in 6.5x55. What do you think, Dave?

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from Brian Robinson wrote 4 years 33 weeks ago

I have broke two Rem 700 extractors on two different rifles,, it is the oddest feeling when you go to chamber a new round and all you get is the bolt by itself.. Besides the cheesy extractor and safety,,, you get a rifle that is almost as exciting as your grandmothers 1991 buick. When you pick up a pre 64 model 70 ,, you can tell you have something special, something rare in your hands. Given a choice who would choose a 700 over a pre 64 winchester?

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from carl s wrote 4 years 33 weeks ago

that is the reason the best sniper rifle in the world is built on a model 700 remington rec.the model m40 sniper rifle.

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