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Old Betsy Lives and Will Be Auctioned

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November 09, 2012

Old Betsy Lives and Will Be Auctioned

By David E. Petzal

Back in 2006, I ran a post about Warren Page’s legendary 7mm Mashburn Magnum, Old Betsy Number One, which was, in its heyday, the most famous hunting rifle in the world. Page took it all over the globe and collected over 450 head of big game with it. In the post, I revealed that I had received a letter and photos from a gentleman who claimed to have bought Old Betsy and remodeled her. But the rifle he had, while undoubtedly a 1950s Mashburn, was not Old Betsy.

Old Betsy Number One is actually alive, and untouched, and unremodeled. I’ve seen photos of her serial number, which matches Page’s records, and of the presentation shield on her stock, and there’s no doubt about this one. It, and 18 other of Page’s rifles, were kept intact as a group by a collector who bought them after Page’s death in 1977.

Now they are to be auctioned, and the bidding begins on November 20. Not only is Old Betsy Number One on the block, but her backup is as well, a somewhat fancier version, called  Old Betsy Number Two. There is also Page’s dangerous game rifle, a much-worn .375 Weatherby built by Weatherby on a Remington 721 action. Page told me he burned out three barrels on the gun, which is an inconceivable amount of shooting.

Old Betsy got Page his blue bear, and his bongo, which were historic trophies at the time, and was largely responsible for his Weatherby Big Game Trophy and election as the first living American to the Hunting Hall of Fame. Page’s rifles have been places and seen things that we can only dream of, and were I not so far down the road myself, I would be in the bidding.

To get a look at the guns, go to Heritage Auctions. The company lists a huge variety of items, so at the top, in the blank space, type in Warren Page Rifles, and hit Search. There they will be. And this time, they’re for real.

Comments (29)

Top Rated
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from natureonthefly wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

I couldn't even imagine seeing, much less touching an object with such a history. It may be crazy to attach so much meaning to a single inanimate object, but whoever owns this thing will be one lucky guy or gal.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from chadlove wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Not exactly Warren Page related, but the old Mashburn Arms Company in Oklahoma City was a wonderful place in its time. Long gone now, but my grandfather bought quite a few guns from there. Loved going in there when I was a kid.

I still have an old FN Deluxe Mauser he bought from Mashburn, lightly customized with a Mashburn trigger and the now-vintage Mashburn "positive zero" scope mounts with a 4x Lyman All-American. It's sort of my own "Old Betsy"...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckhunter wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

There is a sizable scar on the butt stock of Betsy #1. Would love know the story behind that.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Davidpetzal,

Notice both 7mm Mags have 22 inch barrels rather than normally longer ones. Mr Page must have had a reason for using 22 in hers. I'll bet you know why.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

That was meant to read 22 inchers, many apologies

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Nothing could ever replace Warren Page and his great adventures and legacy, but it seems that the 7mm Mashburn Magnum lives on with Roy Weatherby's 7mm.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from ingebrigtsen wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

"buy old betsy.

change scope to high end smith and bender with laser rangefinder,

swap stock for lightweight macmillan,

durapaint the whole dang thing pink,

profit."

be hated by every american hunter in the world :D:D:D

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Interesting history, but this sort of stuff just doesn't blow my skirt up. Sorry people, guns to me are a tool to be used, which Mr.Page had done in his hay day, and not collected as art. This is a working gun that drew blood as intended. Will the new owner(s)treat it with the same respect if needing to spend in the thousands to own? I doubt it.
That's my take on it...go ahead let the sparks fly!!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ol Krusty wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Some day the only guns we will be able to keep are the ones that are collectibles of sorts.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from T.W. Davidson wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

I'm curious about the 7mm Mashburn Magnum round as much as I am about the history and lore of the rifle that chambers it.

P.O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders, Volume I, originally printed in 1962, lists (on p. 402) a brief description of the "7mm Mashburn Magnum (short)."

The numbers run lively, and don't mention the barrel length that produced them: 130-grain bullets at 3354 fps; 145-grainers at 3180 fps; 160-grainers at 3020 fps. Cases are made from 300 H&H brass--a beautiful, classy cartridge from the beginning of time.

But a few pages later in Ackley's book, one comes across the "7mm Super Magnum (Mashburn)" (p. 406) and the "7mm Mashburn Magnum (long)" (p. 407). The former lists loads significantly hotter--around 7mm Weatherby or hot 7mm Remington Magnum velocities--than the "short" version of the Mashburn Magnum from p. 402. There are no listed loads for the "7mm Mashburn Magnum (long)" listed on p. 407.

So which version of the Mashburn Magnum does Old Betsy Number One fire? How many of us would shoot it, would use it as a hunting rifle, if one of us were fortunate enough to come to own it?

A couple of years ago, by luck and chance, I encountered a 30-06 made by P.O. Ackley around 1950. The rifle was in fine shape, showing little use. I bought it for a few pennies. I would not sell it for many pennies. I put a scope on the rifle. I shoot it from time to time. It will serve as my backup rifle if and when I ever go elk hunting (which I've been dreaming about now for a couple of years). The Ackley rifle, despite its age, despite its wooden stock, despite who knows how many rounds through it, and even though the barrel is not free-floating, is still a shooter: with the right loads, it will consistently go slightly sub-MOA. Rare for a rifle from that time. Still not all that common now.

My Ackley rifle is a shooting rifle, meant for the hunt. It will always serve as such with me.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Now that is a proper rifle.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bernie wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

I had a .280 Rem. built on a Sako L-61 action in 1968 with a 24" Ackley barrel and Fajen stock. I still own it and the rifle continues to shoot very well. One gunbuilder told me one time that Ackley barrels were "a little rough", but my Ackley does just fine.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from bruisedsausage wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

If I was blisteringly wealthy I would probably attempt to buy one or both of those, however that's not an issue so I don't have to complicate my life with such hard choices. Also as previously mentioned someone is probably going to pay a small fortune for the rifle(s) and it will no longer see field use. Such a shame.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 99explorer wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

All very nice, but I didn't see any of the rifles chambered in the .240 Page Super Pooper.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Got wondering about what case the 7mm Mashburn Magnum is based on and my guess was right, a 300 Win Mag with the shoulder roweled back .086" giving the case a longer neck for longer/heavier bullets. The Mashburn compared to a 7mm Rem Mag is basically like comparing a 30-06 to a 308. Perhaps a 26" barrel may have done it more justice?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

I'll bet when Warren Page pulled the lanyard, the muzzle blast had a distinctive roar audible into the next county!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

"Mashburn Magnum"

Just like "Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid", this is one of those names that sounds just right.

No doubt as to what you're getting. Strong name. Just like "Gibraltar".

@TW Davidson, I'm curious about that as well.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Clay,

I have opined before that many people are disappointed by the 7 Rem Mag because they expect a "Mashburn" inside. The golden standard of 175-grains at 3,000 fps.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Check this out! (CHUCKLE)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNld-GJLfpA&NR=1&feature=endscreen

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Wasn't the Mashburn Magnum around in the 1950's? I wasn't, but some of the guys here were. I had thought that I read the 7mm Remington was inspired by the Mashburn and some of the other 7mm Magnums of that time. Dr Petzal is this so?

O Garcia; a person who handloads, according to the Nosler manual #5, can safely reach your benchmark 175/3000fps with a run-of-the-mill, overrated, Remington 7mm Magnum using Reloader 22 and Partition 175 grain bullets.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from tootall75 wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Still trying to fathom taking 475 head of big game total, let alone with one rifle. Aside from that David, I have a question, I put it out to the crowd and I hope I can get your opinion as well. I took a stumble crossing a beaver dam yesterday and my rifle slipped from my shoulder and the barrel and fore-end fell into the water and a bunch of water also splashed into the action, bolt and a few other places. I wiped it down the best I could, it has free floating barrel so I could get a cloth under the barrel and into some other nooks and crannies and I have left it out of my safe air drying it. I should mention it wears a synthetic stock as well...is what I have done thorough enough or will I have to take it apart to really clean it up and do you think it will cause rust if I don't. My wife thinks it's silly that I am obessing over a "gun" but it's a friggin .270, I almost cried when it fell in the water. I appreciate any feedback you might have, thanks in advance.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

A 7mm Rem Mag with a 175 gr Partition @ 3,000 fps would be a stretch of about 150 fps according to Nosler current data and Alliant load guide. More like about 2,850+, particularly with the 24 inch tubes common to those rifles. Just sayin'

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

@AlaskanExile,

"overrated, Remington 7mm Magnum"

that's what Remington got for basing its Big Seven on a Winchester case (.264 WM) LOL.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Back in 2008, this blog on the 7mm and .300Win by Dave generated this much feedback:

www.fieldandstream.com/pages/two-cases-where-bigger-isnt-better

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

and this take by John Barsness on "fast Sevens" which include the Mashburn (from Wolfe back in 1999):

"Today’s shooters regard the 7mm STW as the cutting edge of modern magnums, but it’s almost exactly the same round as the 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum that Field & Stream’s Warren Page used all over the world in the 1950s, and basically the same as the 7mm-300 Weatherby wildcat that’s seen use over the past couple of decades. All three are "full-length" belted magnums, derived from the circa-1912 .300 Holland & Holland case, so have almost identical powder capacities and ballistics."

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Clay,

.300 Winchester was introduced one year after the 7mm Rem. (1963 vs. 1962). The Mashburn predated both rounds.

But the .300WM's case length is uncannily similar to the Mashburn's. Maybe that explains the added oomph.

The Mashburn Super would be the equivalent of the STW.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago

O Garcia

264 Win Mag
7mm Win Mag
7mm Mashburn Magnum
300 Win Mag
338 Win mag
458 Win Mag
etc
etc
etc
All derived from the same case!
As for the 264, it got bad publicity and due to lack of advertizement, it fallen short in popularity like the 7mm Rem Mag. Now if was called the 6.5 Win Mag, things might have played out differently. 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag make fantastic 338 Win Mag!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago

Clay,
Agreed, they're all based on the shortened .375 H&H case, however, dimensionally, the .458, .338 and .264 Win. as well as the 7 mm Rem. Mag., which was based on a necked up .264, all use the ."458" case introduced in 1956? with a length of approx. 64mm.

The .300 Win. Mag., which came several years later (1963), has a slightly longer case(2.62"/66mm).

The 7mm Mashburn Mag. which some sources say was already around in the 1940's, has a case length of 2.63", basically the same as the .300 Winchester.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from bullet375 wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago

Replying to T.W. Davidson, AlaskanExile, O Garcia, et al:

I was fortunate to have served my puberty in the 1950s, to have lurked in and around Mashburn Arms and to have known Art Mashburn.
He once showed me a letter from Warren Page who had sent "Old Betsy" in for rebarreling -- an honor I suppose few have experienced.
"Old Betsy" was definitely a 7mm Mashburn Short Magnum. It's fame definitely inspired Remington to develop the 7mm Remington Magnum, but that's about as far as it goes -- no direct lineage.
The 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum was a blown-out full-length .300 H&H Magnum with the Mashburn shoulder, which I seem to recall was 30 degrees. It is not the equivalent of the 7mm STW. It preceded the STW by several decades. Therefore, it would be correct to say the 7mm STW is the equivalent of the 7mm Mashburn Super Mag. I have a suspicion that Layne Simpson had never heard of the 7mm Mashburn Super Mag so one can't say he copied it, using the 8mm Rem Ultra Mag as the parent case.
Unfortunately, surplus 4831 and 4350 were about the slowest-burning powders available to handloaders at the time so the Super Mag never reached its full potential.
Also, electronic chronographs for handloaders were not yet a gleam in Dr. Ken Oehler's eye yet. Wildcatters had to send ammo to such laboratories as H.P. White for pressure and velocity testing -- at considerable expense.
As a result, Mashburn, P.O. Ackley, Rocky Gibbs and others mostly relied on bullet drop testing and optimism to establish their cartridges' performance. As for pressures? Micrometers on case rims were the generally used method, that and dropping back a grain or two if the primer fell out of a just-fired case.
I miss old Art. He had a cartridge board that sat on his counter that showed all his wildcats. There was probably only that single board in existence.
After Art passed and his longtime friend/caregiver (I think his name was Hayden Bryce) also left this earth, Mashburn Arms passed into other hands and changed locations. Eventually it closed, and I suppose that cartridge board, Warren Pages letters and many other historic items are in a landfill somewhere.
How I wish I had been able to obtain that board and other things as well.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Comment

from WA Mtnhunter wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Nothing could ever replace Warren Page and his great adventures and legacy, but it seems that the 7mm Mashburn Magnum lives on with Roy Weatherby's 7mm.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from natureonthefly wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

I couldn't even imagine seeing, much less touching an object with such a history. It may be crazy to attach so much meaning to a single inanimate object, but whoever owns this thing will be one lucky guy or gal.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from chadlove wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Not exactly Warren Page related, but the old Mashburn Arms Company in Oklahoma City was a wonderful place in its time. Long gone now, but my grandfather bought quite a few guns from there. Loved going in there when I was a kid.

I still have an old FN Deluxe Mauser he bought from Mashburn, lightly customized with a Mashburn trigger and the now-vintage Mashburn "positive zero" scope mounts with a 4x Lyman All-American. It's sort of my own "Old Betsy"...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Davidpetzal,

Notice both 7mm Mags have 22 inch barrels rather than normally longer ones. Mr Page must have had a reason for using 22 in hers. I'll bet you know why.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ralph the Rifleman wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Interesting history, but this sort of stuff just doesn't blow my skirt up. Sorry people, guns to me are a tool to be used, which Mr.Page had done in his hay day, and not collected as art. This is a working gun that drew blood as intended. Will the new owner(s)treat it with the same respect if needing to spend in the thousands to own? I doubt it.
That's my take on it...go ahead let the sparks fly!!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from T.W. Davidson wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

I'm curious about the 7mm Mashburn Magnum round as much as I am about the history and lore of the rifle that chambers it.

P.O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders, Volume I, originally printed in 1962, lists (on p. 402) a brief description of the "7mm Mashburn Magnum (short)."

The numbers run lively, and don't mention the barrel length that produced them: 130-grain bullets at 3354 fps; 145-grainers at 3180 fps; 160-grainers at 3020 fps. Cases are made from 300 H&H brass--a beautiful, classy cartridge from the beginning of time.

But a few pages later in Ackley's book, one comes across the "7mm Super Magnum (Mashburn)" (p. 406) and the "7mm Mashburn Magnum (long)" (p. 407). The former lists loads significantly hotter--around 7mm Weatherby or hot 7mm Remington Magnum velocities--than the "short" version of the Mashburn Magnum from p. 402. There are no listed loads for the "7mm Mashburn Magnum (long)" listed on p. 407.

So which version of the Mashburn Magnum does Old Betsy Number One fire? How many of us would shoot it, would use it as a hunting rifle, if one of us were fortunate enough to come to own it?

A couple of years ago, by luck and chance, I encountered a 30-06 made by P.O. Ackley around 1950. The rifle was in fine shape, showing little use. I bought it for a few pennies. I would not sell it for many pennies. I put a scope on the rifle. I shoot it from time to time. It will serve as my backup rifle if and when I ever go elk hunting (which I've been dreaming about now for a couple of years). The Ackley rifle, despite its age, despite its wooden stock, despite who knows how many rounds through it, and even though the barrel is not free-floating, is still a shooter: with the right loads, it will consistently go slightly sub-MOA. Rare for a rifle from that time. Still not all that common now.

My Ackley rifle is a shooting rifle, meant for the hunt. It will always serve as such with me.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from bullet375 wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago

Replying to T.W. Davidson, AlaskanExile, O Garcia, et al:

I was fortunate to have served my puberty in the 1950s, to have lurked in and around Mashburn Arms and to have known Art Mashburn.
He once showed me a letter from Warren Page who had sent "Old Betsy" in for rebarreling -- an honor I suppose few have experienced.
"Old Betsy" was definitely a 7mm Mashburn Short Magnum. It's fame definitely inspired Remington to develop the 7mm Remington Magnum, but that's about as far as it goes -- no direct lineage.
The 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum was a blown-out full-length .300 H&H Magnum with the Mashburn shoulder, which I seem to recall was 30 degrees. It is not the equivalent of the 7mm STW. It preceded the STW by several decades. Therefore, it would be correct to say the 7mm STW is the equivalent of the 7mm Mashburn Super Mag. I have a suspicion that Layne Simpson had never heard of the 7mm Mashburn Super Mag so one can't say he copied it, using the 8mm Rem Ultra Mag as the parent case.
Unfortunately, surplus 4831 and 4350 were about the slowest-burning powders available to handloaders at the time so the Super Mag never reached its full potential.
Also, electronic chronographs for handloaders were not yet a gleam in Dr. Ken Oehler's eye yet. Wildcatters had to send ammo to such laboratories as H.P. White for pressure and velocity testing -- at considerable expense.
As a result, Mashburn, P.O. Ackley, Rocky Gibbs and others mostly relied on bullet drop testing and optimism to establish their cartridges' performance. As for pressures? Micrometers on case rims were the generally used method, that and dropping back a grain or two if the primer fell out of a just-fired case.
I miss old Art. He had a cartridge board that sat on his counter that showed all his wildcats. There was probably only that single board in existence.
After Art passed and his longtime friend/caregiver (I think his name was Hayden Bryce) also left this earth, Mashburn Arms passed into other hands and changed locations. Eventually it closed, and I suppose that cartridge board, Warren Pages letters and many other historic items are in a landfill somewhere.
How I wish I had been able to obtain that board and other things as well.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from buckhunter wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

There is a sizable scar on the butt stock of Betsy #1. Would love know the story behind that.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Happy Myles wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

That was meant to read 22 inchers, many apologies

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from ingebrigtsen wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

"buy old betsy.

change scope to high end smith and bender with laser rangefinder,

swap stock for lightweight macmillan,

durapaint the whole dang thing pink,

profit."

be hated by every american hunter in the world :D:D:D

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ol Krusty wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Some day the only guns we will be able to keep are the ones that are collectibles of sorts.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Now that is a proper rifle.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Bernie wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

I had a .280 Rem. built on a Sako L-61 action in 1968 with a 24" Ackley barrel and Fajen stock. I still own it and the rifle continues to shoot very well. One gunbuilder told me one time that Ackley barrels were "a little rough", but my Ackley does just fine.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from bruisedsausage wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

If I was blisteringly wealthy I would probably attempt to buy one or both of those, however that's not an issue so I don't have to complicate my life with such hard choices. Also as previously mentioned someone is probably going to pay a small fortune for the rifle(s) and it will no longer see field use. Such a shame.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from 99explorer wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

All very nice, but I didn't see any of the rifles chambered in the .240 Page Super Pooper.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Got wondering about what case the 7mm Mashburn Magnum is based on and my guess was right, a 300 Win Mag with the shoulder roweled back .086" giving the case a longer neck for longer/heavier bullets. The Mashburn compared to a 7mm Rem Mag is basically like comparing a 30-06 to a 308. Perhaps a 26" barrel may have done it more justice?

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

I'll bet when Warren Page pulled the lanyard, the muzzle blast had a distinctive roar audible into the next county!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

"Mashburn Magnum"

Just like "Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid", this is one of those names that sounds just right.

No doubt as to what you're getting. Strong name. Just like "Gibraltar".

@TW Davidson, I'm curious about that as well.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Clay,

I have opined before that many people are disappointed by the 7 Rem Mag because they expect a "Mashburn" inside. The golden standard of 175-grains at 3,000 fps.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Check this out! (CHUCKLE)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNld-GJLfpA&NR=1&feature=endscreen

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from AlaskanExile wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Wasn't the Mashburn Magnum around in the 1950's? I wasn't, but some of the guys here were. I had thought that I read the 7mm Remington was inspired by the Mashburn and some of the other 7mm Magnums of that time. Dr Petzal is this so?

O Garcia; a person who handloads, according to the Nosler manual #5, can safely reach your benchmark 175/3000fps with a run-of-the-mill, overrated, Remington 7mm Magnum using Reloader 22 and Partition 175 grain bullets.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from tootall75 wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Still trying to fathom taking 475 head of big game total, let alone with one rifle. Aside from that David, I have a question, I put it out to the crowd and I hope I can get your opinion as well. I took a stumble crossing a beaver dam yesterday and my rifle slipped from my shoulder and the barrel and fore-end fell into the water and a bunch of water also splashed into the action, bolt and a few other places. I wiped it down the best I could, it has free floating barrel so I could get a cloth under the barrel and into some other nooks and crannies and I have left it out of my safe air drying it. I should mention it wears a synthetic stock as well...is what I have done thorough enough or will I have to take it apart to really clean it up and do you think it will cause rust if I don't. My wife thinks it's silly that I am obessing over a "gun" but it's a friggin .270, I almost cried when it fell in the water. I appreciate any feedback you might have, thanks in advance.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

A 7mm Rem Mag with a 175 gr Partition @ 3,000 fps would be a stretch of about 150 fps according to Nosler current data and Alliant load guide. More like about 2,850+, particularly with the 24 inch tubes common to those rifles. Just sayin'

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

@AlaskanExile,

"overrated, Remington 7mm Magnum"

that's what Remington got for basing its Big Seven on a Winchester case (.264 WM) LOL.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Back in 2008, this blog on the 7mm and .300Win by Dave generated this much feedback:

www.fieldandstream.com/pages/two-cases-where-bigger-isnt-better

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

and this take by John Barsness on "fast Sevens" which include the Mashburn (from Wolfe back in 1999):

"Today’s shooters regard the 7mm STW as the cutting edge of modern magnums, but it’s almost exactly the same round as the 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum that Field & Stream’s Warren Page used all over the world in the 1950s, and basically the same as the 7mm-300 Weatherby wildcat that’s seen use over the past couple of decades. All three are "full-length" belted magnums, derived from the circa-1912 .300 Holland & Holland case, so have almost identical powder capacities and ballistics."

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from O Garcia wrote 1 year 22 weeks ago

Clay,

.300 Winchester was introduced one year after the 7mm Rem. (1963 vs. 1962). The Mashburn predated both rounds.

But the .300WM's case length is uncannily similar to the Mashburn's. Maybe that explains the added oomph.

The Mashburn Super would be the equivalent of the STW.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago

O Garcia

264 Win Mag
7mm Win Mag
7mm Mashburn Magnum
300 Win Mag
338 Win mag
458 Win Mag
etc
etc
etc
All derived from the same case!
As for the 264, it got bad publicity and due to lack of advertizement, it fallen short in popularity like the 7mm Rem Mag. Now if was called the 6.5 Win Mag, things might have played out differently. 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag make fantastic 338 Win Mag!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from O Garcia wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago

Clay,
Agreed, they're all based on the shortened .375 H&H case, however, dimensionally, the .458, .338 and .264 Win. as well as the 7 mm Rem. Mag., which was based on a necked up .264, all use the ."458" case introduced in 1956? with a length of approx. 64mm.

The .300 Win. Mag., which came several years later (1963), has a slightly longer case(2.62"/66mm).

The 7mm Mashburn Mag. which some sources say was already around in the 1940's, has a case length of 2.63", basically the same as the .300 Winchester.

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