Please Sign In

Please enter a valid username and password
  • Log in with Facebook
» Not a member? Take a moment to register
» Forgot Username or Password

Why Register?
Signing up could earn you gear (click here to learn how)! It also keeps offensive content off our site.

Deer Hunting

best urban combat/hunting rifle

Uploaded on June 22, 2011

Hey folks,

New to the site and guns in general. I am curious if anybody has opinions on the best all around tactical/hunting rifle that fits this (probably too general) build.
I am looking for something along these parameters:
*Lightweight 5-10lbs
*Semiautomatic
*Can be effectively used for game sizes of white tail deer and below.
*Can be effectively used in an urban combat/self defense situation that is not close quarters- minimum 50meters (150ft) or greater distance.

Also, any takers on the question which would be best for this style of weapon (if there is such a thing) 7.62, or .308

From what i am reading the 5.56 round just does not have the penetration or stoppign energy of the 7.62 and .308 but the .308 is more of a long range sniping round.

Which leans me more towards the 7.62 if that helps the focus of the weapon.

All this make sense? I am hoping to get some serious responses here so i can invest in a weapon before they all get banned.

Thanks all,

C.E.

Top Rated
All Replies
from sgaredneck wrote 2 years 43 weeks ago

What you are asking for is a do everything rifle. I don't know if it exists.

The closest thing I can think of that would fill the bill would be an AR in 6.8SPC, and I can think of several reasons for not having one, ammo availability being top reason.

If you are worried about the impending zombie apocalypse, just go ahead and get an AR in 5.56 and be done with it. If you want something to hunt with that doesn't draw a lot of attention, yet will do the job -maybe even all the jobs you are asking, consider a lever action in a large pistol caliber (44 or 45LC). Fast handling, accurate, easy to shoot, hold plenty of rounds, and with the right ammo will stop a lot of things that 5.56 won't have a prayer of even denting.

If you must have 7.62, get an M1A and be done with it.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 43 weeks ago

Great Reply thank you.

I definitely like the M1A and the AR6.8SPC I will add those to my research list. Can't deal with lever action I need the semi auto/auto features.

Right off the bat I see what you mean about the 6mm ammo. Which again leans me back to the 7.62 which you would find laying around everywhere afer the zombies decimate the population.

This link added to my liking of 7.62 ammo- enjoy.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06-11/ch...
Not that the Army is a bunch of weapon experts or anything...

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from sgaredneck wrote 2 years 43 weeks ago

First off, for anyone thinking that I have flipped out, note my EXTREME sarcasm about the zombie apocalypse. IMHO the greatest impending threat is BHO getting re-elected and the economic doom that could/would follow with that.

Yes I worry about things being 'banned', but I am more worried in a general 2A sense of things, not as much on individual models of firearms. IMO it's easier for the anti's to attack magazine capacity and ammo than weapons themselves. They are trying for things that subvert the 'right to bear arms', Note that they will argue there is no right to have a beta mag for your AR, and they want microstamping of ammo, or at least their wanting to limit your access to it. Those things are much more attainable for them than banning a certain firearm.

I don't understand a 'need' for auto. We're not in a civil war setting. Even if we were, I would rather have a small amount of accurate fire than be able to mag dump all over the place. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing as cool as getting to shoot an M249 or a Thompson, but the cost of ownership, the feeding of them, and the liabilities of having one are too much for me. I'd rather occasionally shoot someone else's at a range than own one myself.

I'm like most folks, I own some 'black rifle' type stuff, BECAUSE I CAN, not because I need it to put me on an even footing with my neighbor, or that I think that 5.56 will be the future currency in the end times.

IMO the firearms and extras to have ought to be useful things, like:

- a .22 rifle you really love, and can shoot well, along with a metric $#!+load of ammo for it. Practice is what makes you good with all the other stuff, and there's no better thing to have than one of these.

- some sort of 12 gauge shotgun, again one you shoot well. An 870 would be hard to beat.

- a bolt action hunting rifle that fits you, and is sized appropriately for what your hunting needs are. Now 308 in that would be hard to beat for a lot of reasons

- a pistol, be it revolver or semi, but again one you are
comfortable and shoot well. Better yet one in .22 and another in a caliber that is personal defense sized.

- reloading press(es) with appropriate dies and all necessary components for the calibers of any centerfire thing you own. 0h and manuals and data, and the KNOWHOW to use.

If you had all those things first, then maybe having something like an AR makes for a nice addition to the collection. Having things on my list above would (and do) give me more peace of mind than just having a zombie blaster that might or might not get banned.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 43 weeks ago

Sgaredneck, the new Ruger scout rifle comes to mind.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

That's what I was thinking 007. The Ruger scout rifle definately fits all that C.E. requires but it's not semi-automatic.

However, that bolt-action may be an advantage when it comes to reliability and ammo conservation. If semi-auto 'black' rifles are banned you would be afraid to take a 'black' rifle out of hiding to go hunting. In a ban situation just possessing a semi-auto could lead to California style problems. What do you do when you need to be on the move in an urban survival situation like that in New Orleans after Katrina? A black rifle could get you unwanted attention by local law enforcement.

The M1A is heavier than C.E. requires and so would be the M1 Garand. A M1 Garand with two bandoliers of ammo would probably do the job in the urban situation but is uncomfortably heaviy for hunting.

Sgaredneck has some great points/suggestions.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

C.E., One other advantage for the bolt-action...

You mentioned the posibility of using a variety of 7.62 ammo. Semi-autos are not as forgiving when it comes to using different loads because they are dependent upon certain gas pressure curves and maximum values. A bolt-action will more likely digest a wide selection of ammo and could be easier to clear a stuck case (in the scout rifle configuration) if you happen to get an out of tolerance round.

Also remember that the 7.62x51 Nato is not exactly the same as the .308 Winchester. However, it is generally considered safe to fire in firearms chambered for .308 Winchester.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO
"Fighting between the big-round and small-round groups reached a peak in the early 1960s, when test after test showed the .223 Remington cartridge fired from the AR-15 allowed an 8-soldier unit to outgun an 11-soldier unit armed with M14s. U.S. troops were able to carry more than twice as much 5.56×45mm ammunition as 7.62x51mm for the same weight, which would allow them a better advantage against a typical NVA unit armed with AK-47s.

Typical Battle Load
M14 (7.62x51mm), 20 rds mags, 14 mags / 280 rds
M16 (5.56x45mm), 20 rds mags, 33 mags / 660 rds
AK-47 (7.62x39mm), 30 rds mags, 8 mags / 240 rds

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from sgaredneck wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

I'd love to hear WAM's take right about now. Someone with some real time and perspective on the subject(s). That would be mo' interesting.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Great responses all - thanks for the feedback. And I don't think you flipped about zombies...just like you the only zombies that bother me are the ones currently on Capitol Hill.

From what I see the M1A does fit into my weight restrictions coming in at around 9lbs unloaded. It also has a nice range of magazines 30,20,10 and 5.

I actually love bolt actions but I have a .223 bolt action already and I am really stuck on a semi-auto/auto for this particular search.
I already have my pistol and 12 gauge tactical shotgun picked out as well.

Another link here that gives some opinions/comparisons about the round differences between 5.56, 6.8 and 7.62.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKy3930MO2k&feature=related

pro's and cons to all...

thanks again!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Glad to be of assistance, it's always good to revisit the pros and cons of this issue. The M1A is a great rifle if the weight is not an issue for you.

My zombie rifle is a M1 Garand. It's capable of minute of angle accuracy with the factory peep sights. I keep two bandoliers of clips handy and an ammo box full of additional loaded clips. (180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips over 47 grains of IMR 4064) I've hunted with it but it does get heavy if I'm on the move most of the day.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from featherfisher wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

A 40 year association of active duty,war zone contractor, and currently Civil Service having been in almost every dust up since the 1st Gulf War- too include both Iraq and Afghanistan I would lean on a Mini 14 in 308/7.62- Several reasons- high magazine capacity- easy handing put any sight but would want one of the new holographic sights. And if things ever got real bad here in the USA lots of surplus ammo at hand to include many ammunition depots. You must be able to penetrate cover and concealment in urban combat. No penetrate no kills. We found that out in the current decade when they mounted the SAW 249s in 5.56-on the turrets of the up armored hummers- guys behind walls lob grenades at you all day- shoot thru the wall with some oomph and no live grenade lobbers- and in the event someone decides to send bullets via air mail- you have the reach to hit back 147 gr FMJ only - got to get through and if lucky get two-fers when there is a baddies behind door number 1 and a buddy close behind
Enuf said Thank you

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from CCMJS wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

My zombie/urban combat/urban hunting rifles are M1 Garand 30-06, AR15 223, Ruger mini 7.62x39, Model 94 in 30-30. All rifles are in common and easy to find calibers.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

F-Fisher thats why I got hung on the 7.62 if you see my link above the Army FM shows exactly what urban barriers/environments are typically experienced and the penetration capabilities of the different ammunition platforms currently available.

I also like rednecks idea of the AR6.8SPC the ammo is expensive but it still has comparible penetration,velocity to the 7.62 but with a little less kick. Trying to place fast accurate rounds with a 16lb 7.62 punch is a little tough. It is also substantially lighter - really a great ammunition platform all together (which is probably costs an arm and a leg to load up on them). If i did gett into the 6.8 i need to then learn how to reload my own ammo haha...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

wow, i've actually never thought about what my zombie gun would be. time to go through my inventory. i know my 870 and my sig in .40 cal will be two of them but what about my rifle. got me thinking now.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from lawman328 wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Hey Y'all sorry been gone awhile. I couldn't get signed on for some reason. And a divorce took the computer anyway!
I was wondering why nobody has talked much about The AK-47. Rifle Dynamics makes some awesome weapons, or FN FAL. like a nice DSA work up.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Hey lawman, totally understandable. Those divorces can take a lot of things away! Same thing happend to me 7 years ago.

To be honest, a 7.62x39 platform didn't even cross my mind because of the hunting requirement. I've owned a SKS before and was not impressed with it's accuracy. The AK is of course a reliable platform but I hate the loud safety.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

For deer hunting and a fracas or two in the urban environment where ammo loading is not a primary consideration, I would choose an HK91/41 variant of the German G3 rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO (.308 Win) or an M-1A clone of the M-14 battle rifle. A Bushmaster AR in .223/5.56mm would be a close second. In the urban environment, I would opt for the penetration advantage of the 7.62 overthe higher capacity firepower of the AR's.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from grizzlygovfan wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

California sure sucks. Since banning "assault magazines" the Leftist zombies following the Obama hint to "get in your neighbors face" will feel a lot safer, in a riot and loot scenario, like we've seen here before. I read that commercial .308 rounds create higher pressure than the 7.62X39 military round puts out, and so the military round is safe when fired in a typical .308 rifle. Anyone?
About the Ruger Scout, I've read that at least a couple have had a problem with wood cracking in the magazine well area? That thing is about a thousand dollars I think.
For a guy who is not facing an organized military force, maybe a Marlin lever action could serve an impromptu defense function? .338 Marlin express is much like a 30-06.
If any especially long distance shots will be needed maybe an actual 30-06 rifle would work, with hand loads? The H&R single shot with a scope, in 30-06 comes to mind, because it is just over $300 for the rifle. For the same amount of money a Ruger scout would cost, a person could have two rifles, and both great deer rifles.
That said, I ribboned with the M1A in the Navy and love the thing. It is heavy and costs a lot. If I had the money I would just buy all the dang rifles and be sure to get a flush mount magazine too, for the M1A, to make it even handier in deer hunting. In California capacity is limited to ten rounds at the moment. If the Scout was fixed to not crack the wood, and it had a more reasonable price, and with a flush mount hunting magazine available, I would be very happy with one. Ten rounds per magazine is plenty and .308 said to be excellent for the dual role involved. Cracking wood and a $1000 price don't go together though.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

From
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090705154413AAqrYDu

.308 Win vs. 7.62x51--The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, lets address the oft-posed question "Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62x51 NATO one and the same?" The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win "Go Gauge" is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308's "No-Go" dimension is 1.634" vs. 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 "No Go" gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62x51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: "[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn't to the .308 'headspace' dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule." You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62x51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max..... Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62x51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62x51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.

Source(s):
http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

http://www.303british.com/id36.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

PH

Where did you get those typical battle load figures? I never recall carrying 33 magazines. Our basic load was 320 rounds in seven or more loaded magazines plus 200 rounds M-60 machine gun ammo and a spare radio battery.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Featherfisher wrote : "A 40 year association of active duty,war zone contractor, and currently Civil Service having been in almost every dust up since the 1st Gulf War- too include both Iraq and Afghanistan I would lean on a Mini 14 in 308/7.62- "

Never saw a Mini-14 chambered in anything other than .223, 7.62x39 (Russian), and the 6.8 SPC. Not sure the POS Mini-14 would stand up to a diet of 7.62 NATO.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

WAM, I got those battle load figures from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO

I've never served in the military and have only hunted animals that don't shoot back so my 'battle load' is much smaller. I think the most I carry when hunting pigs is 10 rounds for my rifle and 6 rounds for my revolver.

You can get the Mini-30 in 7.62x39 which of course is not .308 Winchester. I've had a Mini-14 and it would NOT be my first choice for protection nor hunting.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

I think that chart was from a test conducted. That 660 ruonds would be almost 18 pounds plus the weight of magazine which I woulg estimate 6 ounces each for a total ammo load of about 29 pounds. Quite a load considering how much other gear a combat trooper would carry. Maybe if I were headed into Mogadishu. I might bulk up on ammo.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from shazam wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

ah, I was wondering about the battle load as well. the problem is that you missed the header from that table on wikipedia.
Rifle Cartridge
Cartridge weight
Weight of loaded magazine
10 kilogram ammo load

M14 7.62x51mm 393 gr 20 rds @ .68 kg 14 mags / 280 rds
M16 5.56x45mm 183 gr 20 rds @ .3 kg 33 mags / 660 rds
AK-47 7.62x39mm 281 gr 30 rds @ 1.2 kg*[10] 8 mags / 240 rds

They are telling you how much ammo you would be carrying if you carried 10kg (22 pounds) of ammo, not what a typical load out would be.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Here's some interesting reading:

The Modern Warrior’s Combat Load, Dismounted Operations in Afghanistan April - May 2003
http://thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoa...
"The Rifleman carries perhaps the least casualty-producing weapon within the squad yet this allows the Rifleman more freedom of maneuver and the ability to carry additional ammunition for crew served weapon systems and/or assist in transporting specialty equipment." (63 lbs average fighting load including 180 rounds of 5.56mm ball ammunition)

I also found the following concerning batteries:

"For a three-day mission in Afghanistan, the average soldier lugs a minimum of 20 pounds of up to seven types of batteries — from small AA’s for night-vision goggles to brick-size packs used in tactical radios. Some troops tote even more — up to 35 pounds — for specialized equipment."
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarine...

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Denny Fillmore wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

My opinion, anything on the Garand/M14/M1A platform is too heavy to meet the requirements of the OP's description.

I don't much personally care for AR15s, so my pick would be a Mini 14 or Mini 30. Have had both for years. The Mini 30 is a tad more accurate than the Mini 14, both are more than accurate enough for deer-size game to 150 yards w/iron sights. Both are reliable and not prone to the breakage of wee parts, nor do they require constant maintenence for reliable function, like most ARs.

Despite lots of moaning about the "poor" accuracy of either rifle and the once limited availability of reliable hi-cap mags, either one would be my choices. Ruger's 20 round factory mags work fine.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from whitetailfreek wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

I would go with an AR platform in either 5.56x45mm or go with its bigger brother in a 7.62x51mm.

I would tend to go with the 5.56x45 though. With quality ammo, you can still reach out and touch something at 300 yards. I wouldn't be hunting with it at those ranges, but for urban protection it is nothing to sneeze at. Plus its plenty accurate at those ranges compared to the 7.62x39mm fired out of a Mini-14 or even the AK.

So many people talk about reliability issues with the AR platform, and apparently they do not own a modern AR made by a reputable brand like Armalite, StagArms, Bushmaster, or Rock River Armory. I can put hundreds of rounds through my AR, with not even a hiccup. As long as you have reliable, well-made magazines, and decent ammo, ARs will gobble up every round and spit it at target, accurately too.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Lot's to think about here and I am glad I could start a good post worth discussing. Thanks again for the educated opinions all.

Some conclusions I have come to is that I will definitely go with a Semi-automatic and 6.8mm rounds or greater. Sorry for the supporters of 5.56 ammo-but I am just not going that route.

So (for now) it is down to reliability and weight. Unfortunately since I have never owned any of these I cannot comment much on reliability (though I am sure a lot of that will depend on my ability to do upkeep).

Here is what I found on weights of various rifles (unloaded) I put in the top of my list so far. Of course all weights are dependant on the configuration/build.

AR in 6.8SPC (thanks redneck) is about 6-8lbs
M1A is about 8-10lbs (just within my 10lb limit)
FN Herstal 17S in 7.62 is about 8lbs as well with a long barrel
And of course the AK47 (7.62) but depending it could easily break 11lbs

This is not the end of my list though! I am still open to suggestions and opinions both on new things I should add or on my current picks.

Thanks again all for the feedback-extremely helpful!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Everyone loves the AR-15, and it is finally starting to be viewed as just as reliable and accurate as any other rifle, so let's not forget about its daddy that fits the bill perfectly here.

AR-10 in .308/7.62x51

Original style --

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10A2F&ReturnUrl=Categories.as...

Updated version that might be more suited to hunting/long range/optics ready --

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10TBNF&ReturnUrl=Categories.a...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Really? No mentions of the AR-10? Stoner's original. Great rifle. I won't say it's any better than the M14 but it's lighter to fit the description here.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from sgaredneck wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Shane,

The AR-10 is notable.

Keep in mind that the AR-15/M16/M4 was actually the evolution spawned from it, with arguably a lot more development and real-world time involved in its making. I think Eugene Stoner had hopes for the AR-10 as a modern replacement for the M14 or maybe even the FN/FAL (that's another notable one too). The way the cards of history played out gave the nod to the AR-15.

A couple of years ago I had the pleasure/honor of getting a visit to Knight Armament in FL, and also got an incredibly informative guided tour by the owner himself. In our group were some very notable people (not me), and being there hearing their conversations was truly amazing and educational, especially if you are a gun nut and you also appreciate history.

I saw and heard lots of amazing things there I won't get long winded on, but to stay on point, among what I saw were Stoner's original drawings and his first handful of AR prototypes, both -10 and -15 there on display. The connection there is that Knight employed Stoner as a consultant in his late days, and their SR25 sniper rifle is the most current evolution of the AR-10. It is awesome and mo' accurate, but it weighs a lot and costs more than anyone except Uncle Sam could afford.

For your current 7.62 choices you have AR-10, FN-FAL, HK91/G3, and M1A. While the AR-10 is notable, IMO it is nearer the bottom of the pile if you are talking about something to carry that is battle tested and proven. If we are talking no-holds-barred money-is-no-object accuracy, IMO it would be a fight between an accurized M1A(maybe an M25) and the Knight SR25 version of the AR-10.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

Good points, but the light weight criterion drew me towards the AR-10. Also, just about any advancement or improvement that has been made to AR-15s can be had with an AR-10. You can get a light weight, extremely accurate and stone cold reliable AR-10 nowadays. The best thing to happen to them is piston driven vs. direct impingement operating systems. Clean, cool running, and reliable. I will admit that the M14/M1A is probably the king of semi-auto reliability (dragging it through the mud, stuffing it with mud and it still works), but I would put a new premium AR-10 up against anything in a challenge to meet the criteria mentioned above and outperform in a good rifleman's hands.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from CHKILCHII wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

AR-15.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from coachsjike wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

my sks is capable of hitting targets out to 175 yards, so it is accurate. 7.62x39 is an extremely popular round not to mention if you needed ammo in an emergency you can steal it off of your dead foreign enemies if they invade the country!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from iron giant wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

An Ar 10 or SOCOM II would meet your specifications nicely. Infinitly better for hunting than the 5.56, and alot of advantages over the 5.56 in combat.

I agree with this take on the question.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/bug-out-bag-gun/

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from ableskeever wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

I know this isn't what you're looking for, but I believe that you can hunt deer with a 12 gauge shotgun and there is nothing better with which to defend your home if you've a choice in picking up a weapon... not to mention that a shotgun isn't illegal in particular *cough* California *cough* states like an AR platform is.

Slugs to birdshot, you have many options in what you're shooting as well.

If you're stripping dead foreign enemies of their ammo, you can also strip them of the weapons they drop and go with that. At least the magazines will already be loaded that fit the weapon.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

Fortunately nobody is stupid enough to invade the US. For now anyways our gun laws are so lax and underground weapon smuggling is so vast that just about every American has or could quickly gain acces to a decent weapon for self defense.
Unfortunately we are killing ourselves from within - so any ammo I am prying out of cold dead fingers would probably be from the looter down the street.
But I digress...

As for the shotgun - previous post - I already got that and a pistol.

For now I focusing on the semi-auto.
Some things I have decided:
I will be using
a 7.62 NATO
freefloating stock
adjustable shoulder
Picatinny rails
and it is down to a choice between these:
M1A is about 8-10lbs
FN Herstal 17S in 7.62
HK91

Out of that if anybody has any opinions it would be greatly appreciated!

as always thanks for the ideas-ya'll are a great bunch of gun toting free Americans!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from CHKILCHII wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

Go for the M1A, you can't beat the reliability, and it comes in many different variants, each ideal for different situations.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

Wow now I have seen some dangerous pussies in my life - but that takes the cake hahaha...great post!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from w_worsham wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

The Springfield M1A or their SOCOM II in urban camo. You cannot go wrong with 7.62X51 NATO/.408 Winchester. 150-165 gr projectiles.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from w_worsham wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

Fumble fingers. Of course .308 Win, not .408.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from BigBboy25 wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

I'd say an AR-10 or M110 would be pretty close to an all around rifle. I'd get it in a 22" barrel with a 1-10" twist personally, and shoot 175 grain Sierra Matchkings for targets and for hunting you have several options to choose form.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ableskeever wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

I'll tack on to this with a question:
What is the best quality 7.62 ammo?

A friend of mine said to go with a .308 over a 7.62mm because the ammo quality can be better if you're looking for high accuracy.

I'm looking into something like this for pig hunting. I like the heavier round over the .223 to take out the big sows and boars.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

ableskeever, just use your deer rifle to hunt pigs. A semi-auto is not required. It's amazing how fast you can work a bolt when there's multiple targets.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Redbone wrote 2 years 35 weeks ago

I agree and say the Ruger gunsite scout rifle. If you want to go semi and save a little weight what about the ruger mini 30. The 7.62 round is good for deer and pigs and to me is not as loud as a 223 which is in my opinion not powerful enough for anything bigger than a coyote. Ruger makes factory 20 round magazines for it too. I wouldnt reccomend using steel case ammo in it however.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from FirstBubba wrote 2 years 35 weeks ago

I know that most on here don't care for the Ruger Mini and Ranch rifles. Those aren't my "point".
My point is the 6.8mm Rem SPC round.
I won't say I've used the round extensively, but I have used it....and love it!
Low recoil.
Sufficient energy for deer. At least out to .30-30 ranges.
Ammo availability and hi-cap mag availability may be of concern, but the round is super!

Bubba
NOTE: the Mini14 .223 hi-cap mags will work for the 6.8 cartridge. I use a 20 round .223 mag that will hold 8 to 11 rounds of 6.8 ammo and *FFF. Local laws prohibit mags larger than 5 rounds for hunting. Pig hunting ONLY with hi-cap mags IS allowed.

*feed, fire, function

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from damo450 wrote 2 years 34 weeks ago

What about the FNAR?????? AWESOME RIFLE.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from leebacon wrote 2 years 34 weeks ago

If I was going to build one, I would build it on the AR-10 platform. The beauty about starting with the AR-10 platform is a person could try out different uppers with the same lower if you were really curious in experimenting and finding out what you like (308, 7.62x39, 243, 7mm-08, .270, whatever).

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ga hunter wrote 2 years 34 weeks ago

Remington makes an AR style rifle in .308 and .243 not sure if it comes in any other calibers that would be good for deer.

0 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Reply

from sgaredneck wrote 2 years 43 weeks ago

First off, for anyone thinking that I have flipped out, note my EXTREME sarcasm about the zombie apocalypse. IMHO the greatest impending threat is BHO getting re-elected and the economic doom that could/would follow with that.

Yes I worry about things being 'banned', but I am more worried in a general 2A sense of things, not as much on individual models of firearms. IMO it's easier for the anti's to attack magazine capacity and ammo than weapons themselves. They are trying for things that subvert the 'right to bear arms', Note that they will argue there is no right to have a beta mag for your AR, and they want microstamping of ammo, or at least their wanting to limit your access to it. Those things are much more attainable for them than banning a certain firearm.

I don't understand a 'need' for auto. We're not in a civil war setting. Even if we were, I would rather have a small amount of accurate fire than be able to mag dump all over the place. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing as cool as getting to shoot an M249 or a Thompson, but the cost of ownership, the feeding of them, and the liabilities of having one are too much for me. I'd rather occasionally shoot someone else's at a range than own one myself.

I'm like most folks, I own some 'black rifle' type stuff, BECAUSE I CAN, not because I need it to put me on an even footing with my neighbor, or that I think that 5.56 will be the future currency in the end times.

IMO the firearms and extras to have ought to be useful things, like:

- a .22 rifle you really love, and can shoot well, along with a metric $#!+load of ammo for it. Practice is what makes you good with all the other stuff, and there's no better thing to have than one of these.

- some sort of 12 gauge shotgun, again one you shoot well. An 870 would be hard to beat.

- a bolt action hunting rifle that fits you, and is sized appropriately for what your hunting needs are. Now 308 in that would be hard to beat for a lot of reasons

- a pistol, be it revolver or semi, but again one you are
comfortable and shoot well. Better yet one in .22 and another in a caliber that is personal defense sized.

- reloading press(es) with appropriate dies and all necessary components for the calibers of any centerfire thing you own. 0h and manuals and data, and the KNOWHOW to use.

If you had all those things first, then maybe having something like an AR makes for a nice addition to the collection. Having things on my list above would (and do) give me more peace of mind than just having a zombie blaster that might or might not get banned.

+5 Good Comment? | | Report
from 007 wrote 2 years 43 weeks ago

Sgaredneck, the new Ruger scout rifle comes to mind.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from coachsjike wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

my sks is capable of hitting targets out to 175 yards, so it is accurate. 7.62x39 is an extremely popular round not to mention if you needed ammo in an emergency you can steal it off of your dead foreign enemies if they invade the country!

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from iron giant wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

An Ar 10 or SOCOM II would meet your specifications nicely. Infinitly better for hunting than the 5.56, and alot of advantages over the 5.56 in combat.

I agree with this take on the question.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/bug-out-bag-gun/

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from ableskeever wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

I know this isn't what you're looking for, but I believe that you can hunt deer with a 12 gauge shotgun and there is nothing better with which to defend your home if you've a choice in picking up a weapon... not to mention that a shotgun isn't illegal in particular *cough* California *cough* states like an AR platform is.

Slugs to birdshot, you have many options in what you're shooting as well.

If you're stripping dead foreign enemies of their ammo, you can also strip them of the weapons they drop and go with that. At least the magazines will already be loaded that fit the weapon.

+3 Good Comment? | | Report
from sgaredneck wrote 2 years 43 weeks ago

What you are asking for is a do everything rifle. I don't know if it exists.

The closest thing I can think of that would fill the bill would be an AR in 6.8SPC, and I can think of several reasons for not having one, ammo availability being top reason.

If you are worried about the impending zombie apocalypse, just go ahead and get an AR in 5.56 and be done with it. If you want something to hunt with that doesn't draw a lot of attention, yet will do the job -maybe even all the jobs you are asking, consider a lever action in a large pistol caliber (44 or 45LC). Fast handling, accurate, easy to shoot, hold plenty of rounds, and with the right ammo will stop a lot of things that 5.56 won't have a prayer of even denting.

If you must have 7.62, get an M1A and be done with it.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 43 weeks ago

Great Reply thank you.

I definitely like the M1A and the AR6.8SPC I will add those to my research list. Can't deal with lever action I need the semi auto/auto features.

Right off the bat I see what you mean about the 6mm ammo. Which again leans me back to the 7.62 which you would find laying around everywhere afer the zombies decimate the population.

This link added to my liking of 7.62 ammo- enjoy.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06-11/ch...
Not that the Army is a bunch of weapon experts or anything...

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

That's what I was thinking 007. The Ruger scout rifle definately fits all that C.E. requires but it's not semi-automatic.

However, that bolt-action may be an advantage when it comes to reliability and ammo conservation. If semi-auto 'black' rifles are banned you would be afraid to take a 'black' rifle out of hiding to go hunting. In a ban situation just possessing a semi-auto could lead to California style problems. What do you do when you need to be on the move in an urban survival situation like that in New Orleans after Katrina? A black rifle could get you unwanted attention by local law enforcement.

The M1A is heavier than C.E. requires and so would be the M1 Garand. A M1 Garand with two bandoliers of ammo would probably do the job in the urban situation but is uncomfortably heaviy for hunting.

Sgaredneck has some great points/suggestions.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

C.E., One other advantage for the bolt-action...

You mentioned the posibility of using a variety of 7.62 ammo. Semi-autos are not as forgiving when it comes to using different loads because they are dependent upon certain gas pressure curves and maximum values. A bolt-action will more likely digest a wide selection of ammo and could be easier to clear a stuck case (in the scout rifle configuration) if you happen to get an out of tolerance round.

Also remember that the 7.62x51 Nato is not exactly the same as the .308 Winchester. However, it is generally considered safe to fire in firearms chambered for .308 Winchester.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO
"Fighting between the big-round and small-round groups reached a peak in the early 1960s, when test after test showed the .223 Remington cartridge fired from the AR-15 allowed an 8-soldier unit to outgun an 11-soldier unit armed with M14s. U.S. troops were able to carry more than twice as much 5.56×45mm ammunition as 7.62x51mm for the same weight, which would allow them a better advantage against a typical NVA unit armed with AK-47s.

Typical Battle Load
M14 (7.62x51mm), 20 rds mags, 14 mags / 280 rds
M16 (5.56x45mm), 20 rds mags, 33 mags / 660 rds
AK-47 (7.62x39mm), 30 rds mags, 8 mags / 240 rds

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from sgaredneck wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

I'd love to hear WAM's take right about now. Someone with some real time and perspective on the subject(s). That would be mo' interesting.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from jamesti wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

wow, i've actually never thought about what my zombie gun would be. time to go through my inventory. i know my 870 and my sig in .40 cal will be two of them but what about my rifle. got me thinking now.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from sgaredneck wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Shane,

The AR-10 is notable.

Keep in mind that the AR-15/M16/M4 was actually the evolution spawned from it, with arguably a lot more development and real-world time involved in its making. I think Eugene Stoner had hopes for the AR-10 as a modern replacement for the M14 or maybe even the FN/FAL (that's another notable one too). The way the cards of history played out gave the nod to the AR-15.

A couple of years ago I had the pleasure/honor of getting a visit to Knight Armament in FL, and also got an incredibly informative guided tour by the owner himself. In our group were some very notable people (not me), and being there hearing their conversations was truly amazing and educational, especially if you are a gun nut and you also appreciate history.

I saw and heard lots of amazing things there I won't get long winded on, but to stay on point, among what I saw were Stoner's original drawings and his first handful of AR prototypes, both -10 and -15 there on display. The connection there is that Knight employed Stoner as a consultant in his late days, and their SR25 sniper rifle is the most current evolution of the AR-10. It is awesome and mo' accurate, but it weighs a lot and costs more than anyone except Uncle Sam could afford.

For your current 7.62 choices you have AR-10, FN-FAL, HK91/G3, and M1A. While the AR-10 is notable, IMO it is nearer the bottom of the pile if you are talking about something to carry that is battle tested and proven. If we are talking no-holds-barred money-is-no-object accuracy, IMO it would be a fight between an accurized M1A(maybe an M25) and the Knight SR25 version of the AR-10.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

Good points, but the light weight criterion drew me towards the AR-10. Also, just about any advancement or improvement that has been made to AR-15s can be had with an AR-10. You can get a light weight, extremely accurate and stone cold reliable AR-10 nowadays. The best thing to happen to them is piston driven vs. direct impingement operating systems. Clean, cool running, and reliable. I will admit that the M14/M1A is probably the king of semi-auto reliability (dragging it through the mud, stuffing it with mud and it still works), but I would put a new premium AR-10 up against anything in a challenge to meet the criteria mentioned above and outperform in a good rifleman's hands.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from Clay Cooper wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago
from w_worsham wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

The Springfield M1A or their SOCOM II in urban camo. You cannot go wrong with 7.62X51 NATO/.408 Winchester. 150-165 gr projectiles.

+2 Good Comment? | | Report
from featherfisher wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

A 40 year association of active duty,war zone contractor, and currently Civil Service having been in almost every dust up since the 1st Gulf War- too include both Iraq and Afghanistan I would lean on a Mini 14 in 308/7.62- Several reasons- high magazine capacity- easy handing put any sight but would want one of the new holographic sights. And if things ever got real bad here in the USA lots of surplus ammo at hand to include many ammunition depots. You must be able to penetrate cover and concealment in urban combat. No penetrate no kills. We found that out in the current decade when they mounted the SAW 249s in 5.56-on the turrets of the up armored hummers- guys behind walls lob grenades at you all day- shoot thru the wall with some oomph and no live grenade lobbers- and in the event someone decides to send bullets via air mail- you have the reach to hit back 147 gr FMJ only - got to get through and if lucky get two-fers when there is a baddies behind door number 1 and a buddy close behind
Enuf said Thank you

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from CCMJS wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

My zombie/urban combat/urban hunting rifles are M1 Garand 30-06, AR15 223, Ruger mini 7.62x39, Model 94 in 30-30. All rifles are in common and easy to find calibers.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

F-Fisher thats why I got hung on the 7.62 if you see my link above the Army FM shows exactly what urban barriers/environments are typically experienced and the penetration capabilities of the different ammunition platforms currently available.

I also like rednecks idea of the AR6.8SPC the ammo is expensive but it still has comparible penetration,velocity to the 7.62 but with a little less kick. Trying to place fast accurate rounds with a 16lb 7.62 punch is a little tough. It is also substantially lighter - really a great ammunition platform all together (which is probably costs an arm and a leg to load up on them). If i did gett into the 6.8 i need to then learn how to reload my own ammo haha...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

PH

Where did you get those typical battle load figures? I never recall carrying 33 magazines. Our basic load was 320 rounds in seven or more loaded magazines plus 200 rounds M-60 machine gun ammo and a spare radio battery.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Lot's to think about here and I am glad I could start a good post worth discussing. Thanks again for the educated opinions all.

Some conclusions I have come to is that I will definitely go with a Semi-automatic and 6.8mm rounds or greater. Sorry for the supporters of 5.56 ammo-but I am just not going that route.

So (for now) it is down to reliability and weight. Unfortunately since I have never owned any of these I cannot comment much on reliability (though I am sure a lot of that will depend on my ability to do upkeep).

Here is what I found on weights of various rifles (unloaded) I put in the top of my list so far. Of course all weights are dependant on the configuration/build.

AR in 6.8SPC (thanks redneck) is about 6-8lbs
M1A is about 8-10lbs (just within my 10lb limit)
FN Herstal 17S in 7.62 is about 8lbs as well with a long barrel
And of course the AK47 (7.62) but depending it could easily break 11lbs

This is not the end of my list though! I am still open to suggestions and opinions both on new things I should add or on my current picks.

Thanks again all for the feedback-extremely helpful!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Everyone loves the AR-15, and it is finally starting to be viewed as just as reliable and accurate as any other rifle, so let's not forget about its daddy that fits the bill perfectly here.

AR-10 in .308/7.62x51

Original style --

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10A2F&ReturnUrl=Categories.as...

Updated version that might be more suited to hunting/long range/optics ready --

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10TBNF&ReturnUrl=Categories.a...

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from shane wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Really? No mentions of the AR-10? Stoner's original. Great rifle. I won't say it's any better than the M14 but it's lighter to fit the description here.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from CHKILCHII wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

AR-15.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

Fortunately nobody is stupid enough to invade the US. For now anyways our gun laws are so lax and underground weapon smuggling is so vast that just about every American has or could quickly gain acces to a decent weapon for self defense.
Unfortunately we are killing ourselves from within - so any ammo I am prying out of cold dead fingers would probably be from the looter down the street.
But I digress...

As for the shotgun - previous post - I already got that and a pistol.

For now I focusing on the semi-auto.
Some things I have decided:
I will be using
a 7.62 NATO
freefloating stock
adjustable shoulder
Picatinny rails
and it is down to a choice between these:
M1A is about 8-10lbs
FN Herstal 17S in 7.62
HK91

Out of that if anybody has any opinions it would be greatly appreciated!

as always thanks for the ideas-ya'll are a great bunch of gun toting free Americans!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from CHKILCHII wrote 2 years 41 weeks ago

Go for the M1A, you can't beat the reliability, and it comes in many different variants, each ideal for different situations.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

Wow now I have seen some dangerous pussies in my life - but that takes the cake hahaha...great post!

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from w_worsham wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

Fumble fingers. Of course .308 Win, not .408.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from BigBboy25 wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

I'd say an AR-10 or M110 would be pretty close to an all around rifle. I'd get it in a 22" barrel with a 1-10" twist personally, and shoot 175 grain Sierra Matchkings for targets and for hunting you have several options to choose form.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from ableskeever wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

I'll tack on to this with a question:
What is the best quality 7.62 ammo?

A friend of mine said to go with a .308 over a 7.62mm because the ammo quality can be better if you're looking for high accuracy.

I'm looking into something like this for pig hunting. I like the heavier round over the .223 to take out the big sows and boars.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 40 weeks ago

ableskeever, just use your deer rifle to hunt pigs. A semi-auto is not required. It's amazing how fast you can work a bolt when there's multiple targets.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from Redbone wrote 2 years 35 weeks ago

I agree and say the Ruger gunsite scout rifle. If you want to go semi and save a little weight what about the ruger mini 30. The 7.62 round is good for deer and pigs and to me is not as loud as a 223 which is in my opinion not powerful enough for anything bigger than a coyote. Ruger makes factory 20 round magazines for it too. I wouldnt reccomend using steel case ammo in it however.

+1 Good Comment? | | Report
from cesmith777 wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Great responses all - thanks for the feedback. And I don't think you flipped about zombies...just like you the only zombies that bother me are the ones currently on Capitol Hill.

From what I see the M1A does fit into my weight restrictions coming in at around 9lbs unloaded. It also has a nice range of magazines 30,20,10 and 5.

I actually love bolt actions but I have a .223 bolt action already and I am really stuck on a semi-auto/auto for this particular search.
I already have my pistol and 12 gauge tactical shotgun picked out as well.

Another link here that gives some opinions/comparisons about the round differences between 5.56, 6.8 and 7.62.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKy3930MO2k&feature=related

pro's and cons to all...

thanks again!

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Glad to be of assistance, it's always good to revisit the pros and cons of this issue. The M1A is a great rifle if the weight is not an issue for you.

My zombie rifle is a M1 Garand. It's capable of minute of angle accuracy with the factory peep sights. I keep two bandoliers of clips handy and an ammo box full of additional loaded clips. (180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips over 47 grains of IMR 4064) I've hunted with it but it does get heavy if I'm on the move most of the day.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from lawman328 wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Hey Y'all sorry been gone awhile. I couldn't get signed on for some reason. And a divorce took the computer anyway!
I was wondering why nobody has talked much about The AK-47. Rifle Dynamics makes some awesome weapons, or FN FAL. like a nice DSA work up.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Hey lawman, totally understandable. Those divorces can take a lot of things away! Same thing happend to me 7 years ago.

To be honest, a 7.62x39 platform didn't even cross my mind because of the hunting requirement. I've owned a SKS before and was not impressed with it's accuracy. The AK is of course a reliable platform but I hate the loud safety.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

For deer hunting and a fracas or two in the urban environment where ammo loading is not a primary consideration, I would choose an HK91/41 variant of the German G3 rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO (.308 Win) or an M-1A clone of the M-14 battle rifle. A Bushmaster AR in .223/5.56mm would be a close second. In the urban environment, I would opt for the penetration advantage of the 7.62 overthe higher capacity firepower of the AR's.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from grizzlygovfan wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

California sure sucks. Since banning "assault magazines" the Leftist zombies following the Obama hint to "get in your neighbors face" will feel a lot safer, in a riot and loot scenario, like we've seen here before. I read that commercial .308 rounds create higher pressure than the 7.62X39 military round puts out, and so the military round is safe when fired in a typical .308 rifle. Anyone?
About the Ruger Scout, I've read that at least a couple have had a problem with wood cracking in the magazine well area? That thing is about a thousand dollars I think.
For a guy who is not facing an organized military force, maybe a Marlin lever action could serve an impromptu defense function? .338 Marlin express is much like a 30-06.
If any especially long distance shots will be needed maybe an actual 30-06 rifle would work, with hand loads? The H&R single shot with a scope, in 30-06 comes to mind, because it is just over $300 for the rifle. For the same amount of money a Ruger scout would cost, a person could have two rifles, and both great deer rifles.
That said, I ribboned with the M1A in the Navy and love the thing. It is heavy and costs a lot. If I had the money I would just buy all the dang rifles and be sure to get a flush mount magazine too, for the M1A, to make it even handier in deer hunting. In California capacity is limited to ten rounds at the moment. If the Scout was fixed to not crack the wood, and it had a more reasonable price, and with a flush mount hunting magazine available, I would be very happy with one. Ten rounds per magazine is plenty and .308 said to be excellent for the dual role involved. Cracking wood and a $1000 price don't go together though.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

From
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090705154413AAqrYDu

.308 Win vs. 7.62x51--The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, lets address the oft-posed question "Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62x51 NATO one and the same?" The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win "Go Gauge" is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308's "No-Go" dimension is 1.634" vs. 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 "No Go" gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62x51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: "[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn't to the .308 'headspace' dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule." You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62x51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max..... Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62x51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62x51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.

Source(s):
http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

http://www.303british.com/id36.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Featherfisher wrote : "A 40 year association of active duty,war zone contractor, and currently Civil Service having been in almost every dust up since the 1st Gulf War- too include both Iraq and Afghanistan I would lean on a Mini 14 in 308/7.62- "

Never saw a Mini-14 chambered in anything other than .223, 7.62x39 (Russian), and the 6.8 SPC. Not sure the POS Mini-14 would stand up to a diet of 7.62 NATO.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

WAM, I got those battle load figures from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO

I've never served in the military and have only hunted animals that don't shoot back so my 'battle load' is much smaller. I think the most I carry when hunting pigs is 10 rounds for my rifle and 6 rounds for my revolver.

You can get the Mini-30 in 7.62x39 which of course is not .308 Winchester. I've had a Mini-14 and it would NOT be my first choice for protection nor hunting.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from WA Mtnhunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

I think that chart was from a test conducted. That 660 ruonds would be almost 18 pounds plus the weight of magazine which I woulg estimate 6 ounces each for a total ammo load of about 29 pounds. Quite a load considering how much other gear a combat trooper would carry. Maybe if I were headed into Mogadishu. I might bulk up on ammo.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from shazam wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

ah, I was wondering about the battle load as well. the problem is that you missed the header from that table on wikipedia.
Rifle Cartridge
Cartridge weight
Weight of loaded magazine
10 kilogram ammo load

M14 7.62x51mm 393 gr 20 rds @ .68 kg 14 mags / 280 rds
M16 5.56x45mm 183 gr 20 rds @ .3 kg 33 mags / 660 rds
AK-47 7.62x39mm 281 gr 30 rds @ 1.2 kg*[10] 8 mags / 240 rds

They are telling you how much ammo you would be carrying if you carried 10kg (22 pounds) of ammo, not what a typical load out would be.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from PigHunter wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

Here's some interesting reading:

The Modern Warrior’s Combat Load, Dismounted Operations in Afghanistan April - May 2003
http://thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoa...
"The Rifleman carries perhaps the least casualty-producing weapon within the squad yet this allows the Rifleman more freedom of maneuver and the ability to carry additional ammunition for crew served weapon systems and/or assist in transporting specialty equipment." (63 lbs average fighting load including 180 rounds of 5.56mm ball ammunition)

I also found the following concerning batteries:

"For a three-day mission in Afghanistan, the average soldier lugs a minimum of 20 pounds of up to seven types of batteries — from small AA’s for night-vision goggles to brick-size packs used in tactical radios. Some troops tote even more — up to 35 pounds — for specialized equipment."
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarine...

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Denny Fillmore wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

My opinion, anything on the Garand/M14/M1A platform is too heavy to meet the requirements of the OP's description.

I don't much personally care for AR15s, so my pick would be a Mini 14 or Mini 30. Have had both for years. The Mini 30 is a tad more accurate than the Mini 14, both are more than accurate enough for deer-size game to 150 yards w/iron sights. Both are reliable and not prone to the breakage of wee parts, nor do they require constant maintenence for reliable function, like most ARs.

Despite lots of moaning about the "poor" accuracy of either rifle and the once limited availability of reliable hi-cap mags, either one would be my choices. Ruger's 20 round factory mags work fine.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from whitetailfreek wrote 2 years 42 weeks ago

I would go with an AR platform in either 5.56x45mm or go with its bigger brother in a 7.62x51mm.

I would tend to go with the 5.56x45 though. With quality ammo, you can still reach out and touch something at 300 yards. I wouldn't be hunting with it at those ranges, but for urban protection it is nothing to sneeze at. Plus its plenty accurate at those ranges compared to the 7.62x39mm fired out of a Mini-14 or even the AK.

So many people talk about reliability issues with the AR platform, and apparently they do not own a modern AR made by a reputable brand like Armalite, StagArms, Bushmaster, or Rock River Armory. I can put hundreds of rounds through my AR, with not even a hiccup. As long as you have reliable, well-made magazines, and decent ammo, ARs will gobble up every round and spit it at target, accurately too.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from FirstBubba wrote 2 years 35 weeks ago

I know that most on here don't care for the Ruger Mini and Ranch rifles. Those aren't my "point".
My point is the 6.8mm Rem SPC round.
I won't say I've used the round extensively, but I have used it....and love it!
Low recoil.
Sufficient energy for deer. At least out to .30-30 ranges.
Ammo availability and hi-cap mag availability may be of concern, but the round is super!

Bubba
NOTE: the Mini14 .223 hi-cap mags will work for the 6.8 cartridge. I use a 20 round .223 mag that will hold 8 to 11 rounds of 6.8 ammo and *FFF. Local laws prohibit mags larger than 5 rounds for hunting. Pig hunting ONLY with hi-cap mags IS allowed.

*feed, fire, function

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from damo450 wrote 2 years 34 weeks ago

What about the FNAR?????? AWESOME RIFLE.

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from leebacon wrote 2 years 34 weeks ago

If I was going to build one, I would build it on the AR-10 platform. The beauty about starting with the AR-10 platform is a person could try out different uppers with the same lower if you were really curious in experimenting and finding out what you like (308, 7.62x39, 243, 7mm-08, .270, whatever).

0 Good Comment? | | Report
from Ga hunter wrote 2 years 34 weeks ago

Remington makes an AR style rifle in .308 and .243 not sure if it comes in any other calibers that would be good for deer.

0 Good Comment? | | Report

Post a Reply

bmxbiz-fs